Originally posted by COPPA LAW
It was Sam Witver, not Filoni, btw. But shouldn't make any difference as per the second image.
But in the series, after that statement was made, Dooku was already picked and given his new sith name when Maul was still alive, so I'm not sure if the statement is retconned, or if Sidious didn't plan on replacing Dooku with Maul, which seems unlikely given that Dooku was playing a more vital role even when Maul was still an apprentice. Plus Lucas has stated otherwise, so IDK. Might be true, though.
Ant, you're are such a little faithful servant to Intrepid. Lol
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Was Maul expendable? Yes. Maul pretty much confirmed that's the reason he hated Sidious (SOD). Not to mention that in "The Lost One," it's confirmed that Dooku was already dubbed the name Darth Tyrannus while Maul was still Sidious's apprentice, which is a big hint that Sidious was planning on replacing Maul.While serving Sidious, did Maul ever accomplish anything other than assassinating people for Sidious? From what we know of, no. Does that conclude that Maul wasn't trained to be a scheming mastermind? No.
Can you quote anything from ILS that contradicts canon?
I'll have to rewatch the episode but I'm pretty sure he was referred to as just Tyrannus at that time and not "Darth" Tyrannus," which would have automatically broken the rule of 2. Sidious clearly swayed Dooku to the dark side and sent him on an important mission. None of that means he intended to replace Maul if Maul hadn't got cut in 2.(Although he clearly kept his options open)
Maul was clearly trained to do a lot more than assassinate people. That's the point.
Yes, ILS claiming Maul was never a true Sith, was never considered a true Apprentice to ones day possibly replace Sidious, and that Maul was intended as nothing more than an assassin? Is all clearly contradicted by canon. That's all been proven by numerous quotes on this thread.
Originally posted by ILS
I acknowledged that he is a true Sith Lord, stop misinterpreting everything I say to suit your agenda. I said that he wasn't a Banite Sith and that he was never intended to replace Sidious. Which he wasn't.
Great except you're talking outta your ass.
Those 2 ideas go hand in hand. Maul was trained by Sidious. If he was a true Sith Lord then he was true Banite Sith, and he was at least considered as a potential replacement for Sidious.
If he was just a mere assassin like Ventress or Opress were to Dooku, then he would never have been a true Sith Lord.
If Maul really was a Banite Sith, then why did he become a Sith Lord whilst Sidious was apprenticed to Plagueis, and why wasn't he taught common Sith techniques like Lightning and Dun Moch? Why was he kept out of the grand plan? Why did he only go on espionage missions and kill people? Why are there sources coming out the ass which always tend to describe Maul as nothing other than an assassin, a tool for Sidious to dispose of on a whim?
Originally posted by ILS
If Maul really was a Banite Sith, then why did he become a Sith Lord whilst Sidious was apprenticed to Plagueis, and why wasn't he taught common Sith techniques like Lightning and Dun Moch? Why was he kept out of the grand plan? Why did he only go on espionage missions and kill people? Why are there sources coming out the ass which always tend to describe Maul as nothing other than an assassin, a tool for Sidious to dispose of on a whim?
Well, to be fair, even Vader and Dooku were viewed like that, yet Vader was arguably the closest to being a true apprentice, not to mention that Sidious wanted to live forever, so he wouldn't choose a successor, as per BoS.
Originally posted by NargarothAnd that's part of why Maul was never intended to surpass Sidious in any manner, which is why Sidious trained Maul in such a way that he couldn't surpass him.
not to mention that Sidious wanted to live forever, so he wouldn't choose a successor, as per BoS.
I'm one of the most devout Maul fans you can get but even I know where to draw the line when it comes to discussions like "potential"
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'll have to rewatch the episode but I'm pretty sure he was referred to as just Tyrannus at that time and not "Darth" Tyrannus," which would have automatically broken the rule of 2. Sidious clearly swayed Dooku to the dark side and sent him on an important mission. None of that means he intended to replace Maul if Maul hadn't got cut in 2.(Although he clearly kept his options open)Maul was clearly trained to do a lot more than assassinate people. That's the point.
Yes, ILS claiming Maul was never a true Sith, was never considered a true Apprentice to ones day possibly replace Sidious, and that Maul was intended as nothing more than an assassin? Is all clearly contradicted by canon. That's all been proven by numerous quotes on this thread.
Well obviously he wasn't going to introduce himself to anybody by his Darth title, as that would give away his status as a sith, which would have confirmed that they still exist, which Sidious didn't want at the time.
Unless Sidious initially planned on killing Dooku after he sent Dooku on that "important mission" (which was more vital to the grand plan than anything Maul was tasked with), then I'm more than certain that Sidious had to take Dooku in as his apprentice in order to trust him with such an important task that Maul wasn't even aware of, especially with Dooku being a former jedi master. It's very unlikely that Sidious would trust a former jedi master with a very important sith conspiracy mission, with Dooku likely knowing Sidious's own identity, and only make Dooku a mere dark side adept. Now, I'm not saying this is absolute proof that he intended to replace Maul with Dooku, but it's a pretty big hint that's hard to ignore.
As far as Sidious's intentions on Maul being his true successor up until Maul was defeated, well the only thing to suggest that comes from statements from Filoni and Sam, which contradict earlier statements that came directly from Lucas himself. That's why I'm hesitant to take the statement as absolute proof, especially after it's heavily implied in "The Lost One" that Dooku was already serving as Sidious's secret apprentice and tasked with very important orders to carry out that would require Dooku to have a great deal of secrets regarding the grand plan. To me, it just seemed like off handed remarks from Dave and Sam. I think the main thing they were trying to stress was that Maul was meant and trained to be much more than what was originally thought by fans, but as far as we know, Maul never got that far in his career while serving Sidious, and was likely going to be eventually replaced by Dooku once Sidious recruited Dooku to his cause.
@ILS, DP doesn't take into account the EU's depiction of Maul being just a mere assassin to Sidious, and he's right on that part. New canon confirms he was meant to be much more, but as you said that's all he really amounted to while under Sidious's heel, as far as we know at least. I'm not sure why DP is trying to go in on you so hard, though. It seems pretty obvious to me that you're not well aware of the statements made by Filoni, and that you are very knowledgeable on EU Maul, which constantly implies he wasn't meant to amount to anything more than a mere assassin, not being smart enough to actually help Sidious conduct a galactic wide conflict.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Yeah.. to be honest I'm completely used to debating EU 95% of the time. I don't pay much attention to official canon. At least I won't until some of the better novels and comics start coming out. I suppose they must have retconned Maul into being trained as more than just an assassin for TCW but I still don't see much to confirm this other than the fact Maul does go out and a raise a legitimate military. I dunno.. I mean, I don't see TCW as a great depiction of Maul to begin with.. I feel like his best character development was done in his older EU novels. But hey.. if Filoni says that Maul was meant to succeed Sidious even though up until he said that there were dozens of sources stating otherwise, not much we can do.
@ILS, DP doesn't take into account the EU's depiction of Maul being just a mere assassin to Sidious, and he's right on that part. New canon confirms he was meant to be much more, but as you said that's all he really amounted to while under Sidious's heel, as far as we know at least. I'm not sure why DP is trying to go in on you so hard, though. It seems pretty obvious to me that you're not well aware of the statements made by Filoni, and that you are very knowledgeable on EU Maul, which constantly implies he wasn't meant to amount to anything more than a mere assassin, not being smart enough to actually help Sidious conduct a galactic wide conflict.
God I hate "canon" retcons...
Originally posted by ILS
If Maul really was a Banite Sith, then why did he become a Sith Lord whilst Sidious was apprenticed to Plagueis, and why wasn't he taught common Sith techniques like Lightning and Dun Moch? Why was he kept out of the grand plan? Why did he only go on espionage missions and kill people? Why are there sources coming out the ass which always tend to describe Maul as nothing other than an assassin, a tool for Sidious to dispose of on a whim?
Why was Luke being considered when there was already Sidious and Vader? When there's 2 Sith Lords you can have a 3rd work in progress, with deceptive plans to get rid of one of the others.
Who says Maul wasn't taught those things? Maul used Dun Moch on Kenobi. FL might take time to fully develop, but he was more knowledgeable in the Dark Side than the Nightsister Mighella who wielded it.
He wasn't kept out of the grand plans. He knew all about Sidious's plans for the Clone Wars as confirmed in "Revenge".
Dooku, Vader, Maul were all tools for Sidious. None of that means they were all mere assassins and not true Sith Lords.
Maul's main missions were assassinations and espionage, as those were the main jobs that needed doing pre-TPM. Hence the name "Phantom Menace."
