SS4 Gogeta va All

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said: The extent of your alleged 'evidence' has been: "your multipliers are fake. God ki pwns ALL!!!1!111!!!" You haven't provided a shred of legitimate evidence that contradicts anything I've said, while I actually have utilized canon sources/statements/feats in order to thoroughly break down for you why GT>>>Z. Once more: everything I have said here is based exclusively on canon material. Disagree all you'd like, it changes nothing.

Stop throwing a tantrum. It's apparent by now that you don't have a leg to stand on, here. You just can't(or won't) admit it, and are trying to project your angst onto me for whatever reason. Again, it changes nothing. 🙂

canon sources and feats? No you have not because if you did we would not be at this point. Im am open to changing my mind on the subject but you have a terrible stance. imo.

All I hear are power level never specifically stated in the show. Where you have all these other powerlevels from canon sources disproving them. I dont so much approve of the either but they are there.

and again trying to say power scaling works with BoGs character is just not right. and you know it has no relevance too...

You are stuck in this power scaling wankathon that has no feats to back it up. This is why DBZ fans have terrible arguments vs Marvel and DC.

Also Galan. Canon power level are presented in the game. Which make the rest canon as well.

You said it yourself.

Originally posted by Galan007
Power levels listed in video games are not 'canon' unless they coincide with PLs listed in canon sources.

Originally posted by bbrem123
canon sources and feats? No you have not because if you did we would not be at this point. Im am open to changing my mind on the subject but you have a terrible stance. imo.

All I hear are power level never specifically stated in the show. Where you have all these other powerlevels from canon sources disproving them. I dont so much approve of the either but they are there.

and again trying to say power scaling works with BoGs character is just not right. and you know it has no relevance too...

You are stuck in this power scaling wankathon that has no feats to back it up. This is why DBZ fans have terrible arguments vs Marvel and DC.

Myself, and several others, have brought up multiple bits of explicit in-universe evidence directly from GT, which should be more than enough for anyone who is at least half-way logical to see that GT is simply beyond Z. You're simply ignoring anything that doesn't coincide with your opinion that "GAWD KI PWNZ ALL!!"

It's silly, and moreover childish.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Also Galan. Canon power level are presented in the game. Which make the rest canon as well.

You said it yourself.

As I've said several times now: according to that game's power level chart, Freeza is nearly 3x more powerful than a friggin CELL JUNIOR. Defending power levels that are blatantly/painfully/obviously incorrect is absolutely ridiculous.

Wow, this is sad. Why are you still here, Brem?

Originally posted by bbrem123
again speculation.

as I have shown. Vegito was compared to a ss4. It is plain as day. But you have stick up your as* so I guess you will ignore it an make up some more power level. shrug

more worthless claims that dont disprove anything I have said. At least Galan is a good debater...

Hyperbole. 👆

Clearly the statement was a retarded exaggeration, considering GT isn't even cannon, according to Toriyama.

Also, the statement said, "perhaps". If anyone's speculating, it would be the person taking a "maybe" as a definitive fact... You.

How can you actually be this stupid?

Not only are you saying Bills is incomparably stronger than Vegetto, but by association, you're saying Vegeta is as well. Have you even been reading these comments at all?

And fyi, you wouldn't know a "good debater", if it bit you in the ass, because you clearly lack too many chromosomes to have sensation in your nerve endings.

Originally posted by bbrem123
We have no idea how much vegeta amped. and we have no idea to how much power Beerus was even using at the time.

He didn't have an external amp, just anger. And remember, it takes generosity to even put him on the same level as GT SSJ2 Vegeta, and GT SSJ2 Vegeta is significantly less powerful than GT SSJ3 Goku is significantly less powerful than Baby Vegeta in form 2 or 3 is about 1/10th as powerful as SSJ4.

Or to put it another way, even if he was amped at twice or four times normal- which is just speculation- he's still waaay below SSJ4, not even close.

And Beerus... do you have any indication that he was powered down? Are you just going to assume he was powered down? Unsupported speculation?

Beerus pure godly ki in any case and was still hurt, which shows without a doubt normal ki beings can hurt godly ki beings with quantity, and BotG Vegeta likely has less than 1/100th the normal ki of a SSJ4.

Your entire argument seems to be based on unsupported assumption that Vegeta is stronger than ever indicate, that Beerus was randomly weaker, and not even looking at the GT powerups that show support on that side. And when I say 'unsupported,' I mean no dialog, no fights, no feats, literally not the slightest hint in anything.

In comparison, the argument for the GT side is based on shown powerups, comparisons to known shown characters like Perfect Cell, and so on.

Also it was stated that vegito was superior to a ss4 so.

Never said, those statements are only about Toriyama canon.

Plus Gogeta makes a normal SSJ4 look like an ant, so you'd still be off even if we assumed the point (notice how much your argument relies on assumption?).

at least go by feats and not made up nonsense. You have no arguemnt in your favor.

Really, you should stop saying the other side is made up when you have to rely on making up Beerus being mysteriously weaker, making up that Vegeta has unseen power ups beyond what's shown, and just brushing aside the non-made up on screen GT powerups and the fact that Beerus was hurt by normal ki inside his own movie.

You keep accusing other people of using speculation when they bring up arguments with examples, and then using literal unsupported speculation of powerups/power downs/etc. that were not shown anywhere.

Good, supported speculation is something that can be legitimately argued, but people have been going beyond speculation into "This is directly shown," stuff. If you cannot respond to direct examples, while meanwhile cannot bring up examples to support your points that are not directly contradicted on screen, then you're the one without evidence to stand on.

*Devil Advocate*

What if we take a completely feat based approach?

Originally posted by cdtm
*Devil Advocate*

What if we take a completely feat based approach?

The highest physical strength feat shown in a dragonball series is SSJ4 Goku lifting a city. And that's just half the fusion.

So, GT.

If one goes power scaling, there's soooo much more on the GT side.

The last known power for SSJ2 Vegeta before the Beerus fight was in the Buu saga... wherein he was stronger than SSJ2 Teen Gohan, but not by a ton. Not someone who blows Perfect Cell out of the water so to speak, but definitely powerful.

Base-form GT Kid Goku can stomp Perfect Cell.

Vegeta can fight that Goku just fine. Baby Vegeta can solidly beat SSJ3 GT Goku. Even SSJ3 DBZ Goku is, obviously, stronger than SSJ2 DBZ Vegeta.

SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta are at least 10x the level of that GT Goku.

Then they fuse.

👆

-Also, Goku stated that Rildo>Majin Buu... And Goku was stalemating him as a BASE Saiyan. ie. BASE GT Goku~Majin Buu.

-Goku stated that Baby Vegeta had the most powerful ki he'd EVER felt. This means Baby Vegeta>ALL before him(Z characters included)... And that was BEFORE Baby Vegeta reached his peak form.

-Baby Vegeta stomped SSJ3 Goku easily. When Goku transformed into SSJ4, the tables turned completely, and Goku easily stomped Baby Vegeta--what's more, SSJ4 Goku proved to be on par with Oozaru Baby Vegeta. That said, SSJ4 must have been more than 10x> SSJ3.

-Omega Shenron was casually pummeling SSJ4 Goku+SSJ4 Vegeta(they literally had no chance against him.) After fusing into SSJ4 Gogeta, Omega was tooled in one of the most effortless/one-sided stomps I have ever witnessed.

End of GT is among the 15 percent or so of the show I watched, and yeah, Gogeta treated the fight like a joke.

People say he blew it due to "fusion arrogance", but he DID in fact try to finish Omega Shenron (With the same finisher he used in the movie), and he regenerated from it.

So, seems he has Buu like invincibility.

Sure, he used a finishing move that does so much damage Omega loses all the dragonballs and goes back down to Syn Shenron til her re-absorbs them, but he only did so after using some total troll attacks ^^

Originally posted by Galan007

-Omega Shenron was casually pummeling SSJ4 Goku+SSJ4 Vegeta(they literally had no chance against him.)

To put it in Beerus terms, know how it was possible to give Beerus a bloody lip? Well, they couldn't give Omega a bloody lip ^^

After fusing into SSJ4 Gogeta, Omega was tooled in one of the most effortless/one-sided stomps I have ever witnessed.

Indeed, Omega Gogeta was capable of repulsing him without touching him.

Btw, if it *wasn't* for that bloody lip, we could say, "Ok, we know Beerus was untouchably above them, but we don't know by how much, or if enough raw power would allow non godly ki to work, so it's really hard to say." But that one feat shows that, yea, he's *well* within reach of this much ki.

Originally posted by Q99
Btw, if it *wasn't* for that bloody lip, we could say, "Ok, we know Beerus was untouchably above them, but we don't know by how much, or if enough raw power would allow non godly ki to work, so it's really hard to say." But that one feat shows that, yea, he's *well* within reach of this much ki.

Exactly. And Omega wasn't. Just like Vegetto wasn't.

The only difference is the scaling of power between the two. On one hand, Vegetto toyed with Buuhan in his base form.

Omega toyed with two GT SSJ4's, each of which was = to the Vegetto we saw in base to SSJ. Possibly greater.

Basically, Omega toyed with the raw equivalents of two SSJ4 Vegetto's, from DBZ. SSJ4 Gogeta toyed with Omega.

The point is that any GT SSJ2 or above would solo all of DBZ casually, Whiss and Bills included. Let alone a fusion from GT, LET ALONE a SSJ4 Fusion from GT, let alone a SSJ4 fusion of Goku and Vegeta from GT, LET ALONE A SSJ4 FUSION OF GOKU AND VEGETA FROM GT WHEN BOTH WERE STRONGER THAN BUU IN THEIR BASE FORMS.

Doesn't matter though. Brem'll come up with something. 🙄

Instead of going by this power level crap (they're 2 different universes smh) let's go by feats/power scaling:

Anime Cell is a solar system buster because it's backed up by an anime guidebook and Kid Buu's over a few years (can someone pull up whether Funi's subs say few or couple) galaxy busting. The GT perfect files state Syn Shenron is a galaxy buster. However apparently the show says Syn would destroy the galaxy over time. Can someone confirm? Speed wise their best feat is Kid Buu destroying the galaxy over a few years, assuming 5 years and lowballing it by having Kid Buu just TRAVEL a galactic distance, in this case the milky way, he's 20,000x ftl.

Whis is a solar system buster from Beerus. Speed wise: search up whis takes flight since I can't post links yet smh. Since that can't be applied to his reactions, you have to use the 1/22000 formula as said by willyvereb in the comments. 2 million ftl.

Conclusion: SSJ4 Gogeta is a ss buster+ (possible galaxy buster. Please someone confirm) and 5 digit ftl vs Whis who is a ss buster+ and 7 digit ftl. Gogeta can only win if someone confirms the galaxy busting.

The wiki says Omega Shenron's final attack threatened the universe. Not 'go around around place to place blowing stuff up' ala Buu, he was just going to spread his energy out and kill everything.

(Btw, the DB universe seems a rather fragile place in general ^^)

lowballing it by having Kid Buu just TRAVEL a galactic distance, in this case the milky way, he's 20,000x ftl.

He has instant transmission. He can go anywhere instantly.

At the time he destroyed hundreds of planets and threatened the Galaxy, Buu didn't have Instant transmission.

Originally posted by Q99
The wiki says Omega Shenron's final attack threatened the universe. Not 'go around around place to place blowing stuff up' ala Buu, he was just going to spread his energy out and kill everything.

(Btw, the DB universe seems a rather fragile place in general ^^)

He has instant transmission. He can go anywhere instantly.

Like carver said, Buu didn't have it at the time.

The only way SSJ4 Gogeta beats god Goku is if someone can confirm that GT doesn't say Syn Shenron would destroy the galaxy OVER TIME.

Are we forgettingthe magician who was taking Buu around to destroy desired locations? They state that this is what happened the final time, that he sealed Buu up to transport him to Earth.

GT is too far and above. I think it'll be interesting when RoF is released, and if we see him at the same level of his Namek 100% state, it could be a perfect comparison to GT. Also to see if he would just get tossed aside.

When was it said that the magician transported Buu? He couldn't even controlled Buu and he went against Kid Buu actions which is the reason he was please with Fat Buu. So where was it said that he assisted Buu in any of his travels? Scans.

Original Kid Buu fought on the kais planet, (before some time absorbing the fat supreme Kai) You have to use some kind of teleportation to get there, or die in the physical universe.