Beyonder vs LT

Originally posted by Board Walker
This makes much more sense, okay I understand your interpretation now.

My point is that the brothers may be megaverses within the Marvel company (but since all of Marvel is a singular Omniverse/Megaverse I don't see how this is likely true), but that one of them does not represent DC. That is the only point I'm trying to make here, that even post of the non canon crossover, both of those brothers are Marvel megaverses and not Marvel+Dc.

👆 At least you succeeded to hammer some reason in his thick skull ^^.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
👆 At least you succeeded to hammer some reason in his thick skull ^^.

I do my best to enlighten everyone including Mr. Master, I abandon no one.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I do my best to enlighten everyone including Mr. Master, I abandon no one.

You should change your name to Saint Walker. 😄

Originally posted by Board Walker

I do my best to enlighten everyone including Mr. Master, I abandon no one.

Geeze and all I wanted to know was who you guys thought was more powerful. 😛

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Geeze and all I wanted to know was who you guys thought was more powerful. 😛

LT once Marvel became an Omniverse. Beyonder when Marvel was still a Multiverse.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
LT once Marvel became an Omniverse. Beyonder when Marvel was still a Multiverse.

Simple enough answer, thank you.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial

Geeze and all I wanted to know was who you guys thought was more powerful.

The prime Multiverse is already "infinite" ... yet Beyonder was ridiculous times bigger than that "infinity,"
in scale and power.

Any other "multiverse" in Marvel is meaningless concerning cosmic scale power,
since well ... there is none.
Literally, there is no other Eternity or Infinity or cosmic hierarchy or Franklin copies,
or anything note worthy of any kind cosmically speaking in any other multiverse.

The only other realm of any consequence is the Post-retcon Beyond Realm,
which is basically what the old one used to be but now with an entire race of BeyonderS inside it.

All that matters is the prime Multiverse in terms of cosmic power aside from the Beyond Realm.

These days there are infinite multiverses within the Marvel omniverse:

And LT exists in, and acts as the judge of, all multiverses simultaneously:

Yes, Beyonder was certainly millions of times more powerful than the multiversal LT of 1985, but LT's scope/range of power has grown, well, by an infinite, infinitude since then. Not saying he would defeat Beyonder, but I definitely understand where the others are coming from.

^^ I was discussing this with our friend Leo, this is his perfect take on that detail you're pointing out:

Originally posted by leonidas

(let's agree and assume for a moment lt's 'territory DID grow, that in no way presupposes he became more 'powerful'.
like a sheriff who was sheriff of a small town became sheriff of a larger town--
his gun is still the same size, he's not physically mroe powerful,
he just has more territory to cover.

where is the idea that lt's power is somehow equated to the amount of 'territory' he oversees....?

i'd LOVE to see evidence that lt is actually more powerful than he used to be

Originally posted by Galan007

These days there are infinite multiverses within the Marvel omniverse:

And LT exists in, and acts as the judge of, all multiverses simultaneously:

Yes, Beyonder was certainly millions of times more powerful than the multiversal LT of 1985, but LT's scope/range of power has grown, well, by an infinite, infinitude since then.

There is no cosmic hierarchy or cosmic powers in any other multiverse
aside from the one that houses the 616 reality & the retcon Beyond Realm.

I just told Leo this:

Which is interesting cause writers have had Roma "omniversal" status
state, that Eternity is something akin to the "omniverse?"

She again, calls Eternity and Infinity the conceptualzation of Space and Time:

Oh, and not just "Time" ... but "All of Time"

Roma, lableled "Guardian of the Multiverse" many times:

http://i.imgur.com/lPn5SHJ.jpg?2

http://i.imgur.com/Wi0y4Mi.jpg?2

http://i.imgur.com/LBAlpKb.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/HyKiJxq.jpg?1

Bios too:

http://i.imgur.com/LauEvnK.jpg?3
http://i.imgur.com/plKAC0n.jpg?2
http://i.imgur.com/P7MYnax.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/kvHpf4T.jpg?2

This is because this is really all that matters. The prime Multiverse.

to be clear--i'm not saying that lt DOESN'T have more....range nowadays. just that authority and power seem to be, invalidly, being conflated here. i for one would love to see some proof of lt's 'increased power'. it makes no sense imo to assume just because he has more area to cover that he suddenly possesses more 'personal power'. it could (and without proof likely SHOULD) simply imply he has more AUTHORITY over a greater area.

least imo.

More Range = more power. Which is why multiversal beings are above universal. I think we all know that, and that's all the proof you need, Leo.

Pretty simple really.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ I was discussing this with our friend Leo, this is his perfect take on that detail you're pointing out:

Which is true, there is no proof imo.

Point: where scope/range is concerned, the LT of today is FAR beyond the LT of then--omniversal compared to multiversal. That said, does an infinite increase in scope/range mean he received an infinite increase in raw power by proxy? Maybe, maybe not. However, I think the opinion that he may have is a logical one. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas

to be clear--i'm not saying that lt DOESN'T have more....range nowadays. just that authority and power seem to be, invalidly, being conflated here. i for one would love to see some proof of lt's 'increased power'. it makes no sense imo to assume just because he has more area to cover that he suddenly possesses more 'personal power'. it could (and without proof likely SHOULD) simply imply he has more AUTHORITY over a greater area.

least imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
In 1985, LT existed in, and judged, one multiverse. Nowadays, he exists in, and judges, infinite multiverseS simultaneously.

Point: where scope/range is concerned, the LT of today is FAR beyond the LT of then--omniversal compared to multiversal.

Originally posted by Galan007

That said, does an infinite increase in scope/range mean he received an infinite increase in raw power by proxy? Maybe, maybe not. However, I think the opinion that he may have is a logical one. /shrug

Don't get me wrong, I agree the LT is "omniversal" ... (I suppose)
although it's strange cause I've never seen the LT in another multiverse,
the "D of M" is outside Eternity yet intrinsically tied to him,
and iirc the LT can't even judge something from another multiverse if it enters the prime multiverse.

Like the Starbrand, like Rune, etc. Which is a huge wtf in my book.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I do my best to enlighten everyone including Mr. Master, I abandon no one.

That is why you are the Prophet of El

Originally posted by operator616
More Range = more power. Which is why multiversal beings are above universal. I think we all know that, and that's all the proof you need, Leo.

Pretty simple really.

not really. authority only has a limited conflation with power, and it's inconsistent. what authority did molecule man have? what 'range'? what about wyncham? no 'range' to speak of. even thanos with the ig had a tiny'range' compared to lt but his power approached lt's own. these are just off the top of my head and i've no doubt you and others can come up with better examples. i am surprised that so many willingly ascribe to such a fallacious equation. using that logic, roma should be the most uber of all in the omniverse. there is no reason at all to suppose that lt increased in personal power, nor that he needed to.

personally i don't very much care about the issue, and it MAY be that we CAN somehow, arbitrarily grant lt more power, but i'd be willing to wager that in terms of the 'marvel comic reality' lt is and would be considered the same now as he was then. you, and others, as readers, have granted him greater power based on this 'outside' perspective you have as a reader. that's not a perspective the characters themselves have, nor should it be assumed that said outside perspective would impact the comic book world. it bears repeating: there is absolutely zero on panel proof to suggest lt has somehow received this accredited 'amp'. the logic you cite isn't enough imo to come to that conclusion. at all.

Originally posted by Galan007
In 1985, LT existed in, and judged, one multiverse. Nowadays, he exists in, and judges, infinite multiverseS simultaneously.

Point: where scope/range is concerned, the LT of today is FAR beyond the LT of then--omniversal compared to multiversal. That said, does an infinite increase in scope/range mean he received an infinite increase in raw power by proxy? Maybe, maybe not. However, I think the opinion that he may have is a logical one. /shrug

well, there's that old kubik scan that indicated even YEARS back that lt oversaw multiverses, but i agree with your premise. like i said--it MAY be that we can suppose lt has been amped somehow, but i think it equally logical imo to believe he has remained exactly the same in terms of personal power.

but let's suppose for a moment he IS amped? as you said, by how much? i guess i just don't see the need to say he's more powerful, nor of course do i see the proof of his increased power. imo he's the same now as he was then but i don't think it's an issue that can be objectively proven. shrug

^^ Nice points Leo.

I also just realized something friends: The LT has no judgemental cases outside Eternity/Infinity imo.

If there is no cosmic hierarchy, and no cosmic scale powers in other multiverses,
why would the LT even need to survey these realms?

The LT's purpose is to address an imbalance of cosmic power,
but, any of us would be hard pressed to find a galaxy buster from another multiverse.
Heck, even the Starbrand (in its prime) was but global in the New Universe.
(and that was the uber power of that entire multiverse)

One other thing,
the LT plays in other multiverseS according to one writer, Kaminski,
while the rest of Marvel writers including the Head handbook writer Jeff Christiansen state
that the LT is solely attached to the prime Multiverse.

It's almost as though yes, there are other realities outside the prime multiverse,
but it seems they're like in a world of their own.

Yet, I've seen the LT mention an omniversal constant and even Galactus,
so it just doesn't make sense.

Then we have the scenario with the BrotherS,
which after close examination in this thread I came to the conclusion
they make no sense as sole Marvel megaverses. They make no sense period.

I'm serious friends, after years of going one way, I've been considering for some time
that these terms are interchangable (omniverse and multiverse) but not always.
The funny thing is that to me the term "megaverse" is the odd ball out.

Because for Marvel,
it should be either or (omniverse/megaverse) same meaning imo = all universes pertaining to said company.

But better yet, Marvel should stop using the term "omniverse" cause that confuses shit,
they should stick to "megaverse" to represent them entirely,
and leave "omniverse" as everything including other companies. (as it was meant ot be)

Kinda strange, I'm enjoying this discussion now. Thankfully true debators joined the dialogue.

Originally posted by Smoki
@Mr Master. You smart guy should work for the marvel company. You are a legend across many comic book debating forums like crb and comicvine and naruto amongst others. I bet you could land a job as a special consultant involving all that crazy cosmo stuff. It is a pleasure to watch you post.

Originally posted by unknowable
Yeah Mr M is pretty much the kmc scholar of marvel cosmic entertainment and this thread is just one example of his incredible knowledge. You should also check out Galan and Operator616 posts they are also wizards in this department. I will say the monumental rivalries of GS vs Mr M are not around anymore in this area of comics, and I think it is because there is too much ignorance trying to discuss stories with the pros. They should ask instead of arguing for argument's sake.

Originally posted by eaebiekuya
holy proof batman! so the guy who created the brothers bio is the like the man in charge of all marvel handbooks but he also made the brothers bio with the help of 3 writers from the actual story dc vs marvel who created the brothers to begin with and prior to that the story with the x-men was co-written by dc's executive editor mike carlin. this is fascinating i never would have imagined any of this until this thread. it all makes perfect sense the brothers' connected to the x-men story because i never got how a few months after dc vs marvel marvel just took the characters and made them theirs that is crazy. so thank u mr m.

Originally posted by Killemall
👆 I never noticed this happened three months after Dc vs Marvel. It's in your face obvious that these characters are the same. It would be retarded for Marvel or Dc to make replicas of characters of either company. Or was it a lack of creativity? lol. I still wasn't convinced until mr m highlighted the fact that mike carlin worked on the X-Men story and three writers from Dc vs Marvel helped write the Brothers bio. The three writers were aware of alll the information in this bio since they helped write it. If the writers of the damn story are tellng me that's what it is, then there's no need for guessing. First appearance Dc vs Marvel - Other appearances Adventures of the X-Men.

@Smoki. I'm from Comicvine and I'm well known with this same name. I can vouch for Mr M's fame at my site.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Wow, all this back to back love for ol' Mr Mastah, ... were yall just standing by awaiting your moment? lol.
Sincerely thanx yall. 🙂
While I appreciate the recognition friends,
don't yall believe for one moment it will divert the intransigence I'm dealing with here.
So take my advice and do what I decided to do last night,
just ignore the obtuse consistancy, which means the thread is dead.
There really isn't anymore to say anyway, the evidence I presented can't be countered so ... peace and love yall.

I have no doubt a return of more unsupported personal theories,
senseless speculations and outright fallacies is imminent.

So, I'm done.

1) You said that Adv. of X-men 12 retconned DC vs Marvel.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Of course.

Here is Unlimited Access mentioning the events of DC vs Marvel in 1998.

But that shouldn't be possible, right?

Yeah, that does no good for your already down cred.

2)Then you flip-flopped and said that it only changed their status and not their history.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh really? I was hoping you say something like that.

Explain how they were still the personofication of DC and Marvel one year later.

Again false.

3)Then you again flip-flopped and said that the brothers were still personification of DC/Marvel yet LT/Spectre's "*****".

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Whatever. Yes, you're better off getting personal than sticking to the debate.

You have the audacity to highlight my "rep," which is perplexing with your history.

😐

Did you not comprehend my post?

I clearly stated, that nothing changed except for the LT and Spectre being portrayed as above them.

Therefore, they were still the "embodiments" of DC/Marvel, but then (Adv of X-Men) LT's & Spectre's b*tch evidently.

Laughable. Be a man and do your own work. And don't flip-flop ten times in two pages.