Originally posted by NewGuy01
Pretty sure "Fa la la" is the standard, rather than "Fo lo lo".The lolworthy part is really how some people don't bat an eyelash at Revan>Dooku, yet are dialing 911 at Revan>Mace.
Nah, prolly not.
I have Revan>Dooku in force power and Dooku>Revan in sabers. If that helps.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I think we agree on most points. The only thing I'll say is.. Yoda looked superior in that fight. He might not have won.. but he looked slightly superior. The script from Lucas even makes mention "The emperor looks doomed" before yoda lost his balance. DP likes to mention difference in fights. Had yoda not been on the edge of a ledge.. he could've also very likely beaten sids.. Lucas says so... Thus, it's not a matter of Windu winning and Yoda didn't.. how can this be.. it doesn't make any sense. There was also context on why Yoda didn't win.
Yoda disarmed Sids of his saber. We can say he dropped it to regain balance but that is irrelevant. If you force your foe off balance with your strikes and he drops his saber.. it's the same as doing a fancy disarming move. All the same. So Yoda won that aspect of the fight.
Force power..
Yoda overpowered a TK senate pod throw from Sids and sent it back at him. How about lighting.. well as I touched on... Yoda was seemingly about to overpower him and sids looked like he was done. To say Sidious beats yoda more times than not is a bit of a stretch imo considering how Lucas presented the fight.
Yes, Sidious made oh shit face at the end. Yes, Yoda showed great determination. Would Sidious give up first, if not explosion? Highly doubt it. Would he get exhausted first? Don't think so because Yoda got completely exhausted by the end of the fight, while Sidious went to search for Yoda, which implies he was still capable to fight.
KT You've not yet responded to what the Cruz of your argument even is, so I'll assume you're saying what you seem to be, which is that Windu wins a majority against Sidious based on that 1 circumstantial fight based on DIFFERENT STYLES.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You have not provided ONE bit of evidence to support your claim. NOT ONE. This is what you call proof...
So quotes from the ROTS novel, from Lucas, from Filoni, from Gillard and dialogue from the film is not proof?
Exactly what proof have you quoted? Oh that's right - STYLES MAKE FIGHTS. As if that's some kind of hardcore proof or something. Fights also have context behind them, and circumstances, which is why you have to see the whole picture.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Saying the circumstances were different for both fights... DUH!!! That is pretty much true for every single fight in the entire mythos. That isn't proof of anything at all. Like literally nothing at all
You saying "DUH" and yet you yourself are completely ignoring the context of both fights.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You say Sids was enclosed in a limited space and this prevented him from doing stuff. Again POST WHERE THIS IS MENTIONED AS A NEGATIVE FACTOR AGAINST SIDS. Either post the proof of concede you're only speculating that it could've effected him since you've conceded that this is never EVER mentioned as being a negative factor for sids. To further disprove this claim.. We see Sids able to fight both Yoda and mace in close quarters combat. We see Sids about to use lighting while close against both windu and yoda. So this whole ohhh he couldn't do all this stuff is a complete load of crap. Not to mention even saying a fighter didn't do this or that isn't proof of anything. I've already proved that a fighter not doing something can never be used as proof he'd win if he had. That is the worst kind of evidence providing and exactly what you're doing here.
We KNOW it was a negative factor for him, because we see later what he can do in a more open environment against Yoda.
You see that's where you look at context of fights, and see why a combatant was able to perform better against a more Powerful opponent.
A negative factor isn't always described. Sometimes it's there blatant for us to see. Or do you need a Description to prove Palpatine was at a disadvantageous position when Vader killed him?
You're the one claiming fighting in an enclosed space and bringing 3 Jedi to aid him wouldn't have effected Sidious's style of fighting or his performance in the Slightest. Since that's a seriously BOLD claim, it's up to you to prove it.
Sids fought Yoda in Sabers as well, but that fight ended when they were in the senate room, giving him a lot more options in what to do if he gets disarmed, and being able to Unleash his full power of the Dark Side much more effectively there.
I see your still comparing the Lightning shots, and completely ignoring that Sidious was lying on his butt when he began shooting at Windu.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You next proof is the narration that Yoda is the greatest foe the DS has ever known. SO? That ISN'T PROOF. For God's sake do you even know what proof is? STYLE MAKE FIGHTS.. Just because Sonnen had lost to VASTLY inferior people to Anderson Silva.. and is vastly inferior to Silva in an overall all time ranking... DOESN'T MEAN HE COULDN'T GIVE SILVA A FIGHT. He did exactly that. I referenced Whitaker/Chavez/Mcgirt.. If you'd like I could list 20 other examples of one guy being better all time and better in more areas but doing worse against somebody that's worse in most areas. Would you like me to? Silva is called the greatest MW ever... SO does that mean he can't be beaten by a certain style? NO he can and has been. Which exactly the point you seem to be missing. This is UNQUESTIONABLY proved by the below
Urm no I didn't just say greatest. This is the quote:
"Finally he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just-
didn't-
have it."
Look up the meaning of devastating. It doesn't just mean the best. It means the most destructive. And the fact that it says "most devastatingly powerful" is clear cut saying that This is the most destructive assault Sidious has ever faced. Not MACE'S VAPAAD SUPRCONDUCTING DARK SIDE LOOP+SHATTERPOINT!!!!
No, Yoda was the most powerful assault Sidious ever faced, and even that was not enough since he, "just-didn't-have it."
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Mace abilities of VAAPAD and SHATTERPOINT were SPECIFICALLY mentioned by the writer as why he was able to win. Those are abilities he has that Yoda doesn't. You don't think those could've been the reasons he was able to win? Not even a chance that's why? So we have those mentioned (why the proof is on my side) on yours we have...1. Sidious was tired from the Jedi (NEVER MENTIONED AT ANY POINT
2. Sidious was in a confined area and thus it restricted him (NEVER ONCE MENTIONED AT ANY POINT ANYWHERE)
If you want to go by that then Yeah, Vapaad which it was only a while after the other Jedi had been killed that Mace was "deep in it now." Meaning every second Sidious wasted on the other Jedi and not focusing on Windu was crucial, because he needed to defeat him before Windu was "deep in it now" and before he found his Shatterpoint.
So actually the novel does make it clear that any distraction at the beginning of the fight would have been crucial.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Every reason you list why Sidious was negatively effected isn't MENTIONED BY ANYBODY AT ANYTIME. If you have ANY place these are mentioned post it. If not, you'll have to concede you're only speculating and there is zero proof to support such a claim.
You really need it to be stated for you that being outnumbered 4 to 1 is disadvantageous to Sidious? facepalm
You really need to be described how an open and closed environment changes a fight? facepalm facepalm
I guess you also need a description to prove Palpatine was at a disadvantageous position when Vader killed him.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
not only are humans VASTLY difference than Jedi or sith in abilities and powers.. Both can replenish themselves and stamina with the force. So fatigue is not an issue nor the same as with humans. However, even as humans... How does me KOing 3 guys with 3 punches negatively effect me? Unless it hurts my hand.. or unless I get hit while KOing one of them.. or unless I get tired. What big factor could it be? It isn't enough to say.. ohhh I could've gone all out against the first guy right from the jump if I didn't have to KO the other three. That is a WEAK argument because it's easily countered by having ample time for my skill to still come through. Sure I could've KO'd him earlier maybe... but once my full attention is to my foe... and I have plenty of time.. My skill and power will either show through or it wouldn't. Simple. If I lost to the last guy and wasn't hurt.. or tired and had plenty of time to win.. I would probably just say he's the better fighter.
Firstly the main crux of my argument is the 3 Jedi would have forced Sidious into a close quarter combat with Windu right from the onset, in an already enclosed environment.
The being tired thing I just brought up as a MAYBE. Do you know the meaning of MAYBE. And I never even hinted at him being exhausted or anything like that, just "slightly" tired MAYBE.
Oh and your point about Jedi/Sith not tiring- refer to Qui-Gon and Dooku both tiring in their fights. Dooku was said to replenish himself when there was a small break in the fight only. Sidious had no such time to himself. So IF he was Slightly tired from killing those 3 Masters at the onset, then yes that Also would have effected the rest of his performance in the Saber battle.
Gillard already said Mace and Sidious are both on the same level of Saber fighting. He never put Windu above Sidious. So when they're pretty equal already any circumstances will change who has the edge. Add in Force Powers and Sidious is just better.
The rest of your statement here is pretty nonsensical.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I've addressed all your points... NOW, either provide proof or concede YOU'RE only speculating. I've addressed each of your so called proof and shown that it's not back up by any single thing in the movie or the book. NOT only place is ANY of the evidence you're claiming mentioned. The only thing mentioned is the greatest foe thing.. and I've easily dispatched that as any kind of proof of anything with real life examples.
You've addressed the points but not brought any proof or anything new to the table. I on the other hand have brought proof after proof after proof to back my arguments.
And just to end it, I'll provide more proof:
From the official Star Wars website:
http://www.starwars.com/films/star-wars-episode-3-revenge-of-the-sith-story-gallery
"Yoda is eventually outmatched by Sidious. Beaten"
Yes that's right, in a True 1 vs 1 from the beginning of the fight, to the end, in an open environment where Sidious could unleash his Force Powers in FULL, and to their most effective use, The Most Devastatingly Powerful Foe the darkness had ever known, was simply outmatched and beaten.
So no the No.2 Jedi would not fair better if he took Yoda's place in the end fight there due to DIFFERENT STYLES!!!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ He could smash a Senate Pod into his face couldn't he. Or fling him into something sharp. Or heck Force choke him if he's exhausted enough.Tk gives many options to kill. Question is who was more tired: Yoda or Sidious?
Yet Jedi does not use the force to kill, only for protect (Yoda's own words). Yoda couldn't do those things you've mentioned. Sure, he can push him, or he can even ragdoll him, but he can't kill him or heavily wound him with the force.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Yet Jedi does not use the force to kill, only for protect (Yoda's own words). Yoda couldn't do those things you've mentioned. Sure, he can push him, or he can even ragdoll him, but he can't kill him or heavily wound him with the force.
That was OT Yoda.
If he's willing to kill him with a Saber, then he'll have no qualms doing it with Tk.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Do you have any source or proof on this ? Because I doubt they would use the force to kill even sith lords.
Anyway killing with TK is unlikely. If Jedi fights weaker opponent, they can stomp him with lightsaber. Otherwise they are unable to kill with
TK because opponent is worthy enough to resist.
Jedi seem to avoid using Force choke, which is very stupid considering effectiveness of the technique and how it puts opponents to sleep without killing or any physical harm.
Originally posted by Marco1907
I think they don't use force choke and also force lightning just because that would lead them to the dark side.
I heard that Yoda afraid to use the full power of his in that duel, since he could turn to the dark side, someone was saying that Yoda had to retreat because of that reason.
There is a passage of Dooku musing what would happen, if Yoda turned to darkside. But it has nothing to do with holding back. Dark side in most cases simply gives greater power. Like example, where Anakin was getting stronger cos of anger. Controlling emotions can be interpreted as holding back but the point becomes mute.