Originally posted by Arhael
Lightning is a darkside technique because it manifests through focusing anger. Force choke is just TK applied to the throat, it does not require anger or any emotion at all, it's a neutral Force power, that's why I find it stupid.
Nah, they are using force lightning but with a different name ; electric judgement.
Originally posted by Arhael
The moment Yoda lost his lightsaber there was no way for him to win. Think of it. How would Yoda kill Sidious without lightsaber? If anything falling off the platform saved Yoda. After explosion he was so weak that he wasn't even able to slow down the fall and land on his feet. Even if Sidious was completely exhausted at that point too, he would still be able to grab Yoda and break his neck.No, not the same. Lightsaber fight is never even where equal opponents stay perfectly even in one place. One or another will press advantage and other way around. Fight is unpredictable, either opponent can put the other on the defensive. Sidious dropping lightsaber is as circumstantial event as it gets.
He did not "overpower" senate pod. He caught it and threw back, while Sidious was too busy laughing and not paying attention.
Yes, Sidious made oh shit face at the end. Yes, Yoda showed great determination. Would Sidious give up first, if not explosion? Highly doubt it. Would he get exhausted first? Don't think so because Yoda got completely exhausted by the end of the fight, while Sidious went to search for Yoda, which implies he was still capable to fight.
That simply is not true buddy. Yoda has been shown to be able to absorb lighting and then direct it back at his foe. He TK Sids across the room with ease. He stopped and then sent it back. Even in the force battle we discussed later... Yoda was overpowering Sids there as well. Yoda has plenty of options and isn't solely dependent on his saber.
This just makes no sense and I'm honestly surprised you even tried to formulate an argument around it being circumstantial. EVERY single fight in real life whether on the street corner or in the boxing ring or in the MMA ring is all circumstantial. It could depend on weather.... drinking... injury.. training.. what the game plan is... somebody not doubling up with the jab... a slip... not falling through with the game plan... There isn't a fight that has happened in the entire history of this world that doesn't have circumstances about it. That's a totally irrelevant point. IF you press the fight.. You can make somebody trip and fall... get too defensive and land a blow... in this case make your foe drop their weapon. it all doesn't matter. You pressed the fight and put somebody into a bad situation and disarmed them. It's that simple. Yoda disarmed sids in direct saber combat
Wait when did Sids search for Yoda himself? He sent his guards to look for him. Point is, it wouldn't be the first time Sids has given up first... Yoda never has. Yes it wouldn't surprise me one bit had the lighting dual continued on even ground (your circumstantial argument) Yoda would've overpowered him.. and Lucas agrees.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
KT You've not yet responded to what the Cruz of your argument even is, so I'll assume you're saying what you seem to be, which is that Windu wins a majority against Sidious based on that 1 circumstantial fight based on DIFFERENT STYLES.So quotes from the ROTS novel, from Lucas, from Filoni, from Gillard and dialogue from the film is not proof?
Exactly what proof have you quoted? Oh that's right - STYLES MAKE FIGHTS. As if that's some kind of hardcore proof or something. Fights also have context behind them, and circumstances, which is why you have to see the whole picture.
You saying "DUH" and yet you yourself are completely ignoring the context of both fights.
We KNOW it was a negative factor for him, because we see later what he can do in a more open environment against Yoda.
You see that's where you look at context of fights, and see why a combatant was able to perform better against a more Powerful opponent.
A negative factor isn't always described. Sometimes it's there blatant for us to see. Or do you need a Description to prove Palpatine was at a disadvantageous position when Vader killed him?
You're the one claiming fighting in an enclosed space and bringing 3 Jedi to aid him wouldn't have effected Sidious's style of fighting or his performance in the Slightest. Since that's a seriously BOLD claim, it's up to you to prove it.
Sids fought Yoda in Sabers as well, but that fight ended when they were in the senate room, giving him a lot more options in what to do if he gets disarmed, and being able to Unleash his full power of the Dark Side much more effectively there.
I see your still comparing the Lightning shots, and completely ignoring that Sidious was lying on his butt when he began shooting at Windu.
Urm no I didn't just say greatest. This is the quote:
"Finally he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just-
didn't-
have it."Look up the meaning of devastating. It doesn't just mean the best. It means the most destructive. And the fact that it says "most devastatingly powerful" is clear cut saying that This is the most destructive assault Sidious has ever faced. Not MACE'S VAPAAD SUPRCONDUCTING DARK SIDE LOOP+SHATTERPOINT!!!!
No, Yoda was the most powerful assault Sidious ever faced, and even that was not enough since he, "just-didn't-have it."
If you want to go by that then Yeah, Vapaad which it was only a while after the other Jedi had been killed that Mace was "deep in it now." Meaning every second Sidious wasted on the other Jedi and not focusing on Windu was crucial, because he needed to defeat him before Windu was "deep in it now" and before he found his Shatterpoint.
So actually the novel does make it clear that any distraction at the beginning of the fight would have been crucial.
You really need it to be stated for you that being outnumbered 4 to 1 is disadvantageous to Sidious? facepalm
You really need to be described how an open and closed environment changes a fight? facepalm facepalmI guess you also need a description to prove Palpatine was at a disadvantageous position when Vader killed him.
Firstly the main crux of my argument is the 3 Jedi would have forced Sidious into a close quarter combat with Windu right from the onset, in an already enclosed environment.
The being tired thing I just brought up as a MAYBE. Do you know the meaning of MAYBE. And I never even hinted at him being exhausted or anything like that, just "slightly" tired MAYBE.
Oh and your point about Jedi/Sith not tiring- refer to Qui-Gon and Dooku both tiring in their fights. Dooku was said to replenish himself when there was a small break in the fight only. Sidious had no such time to himself. So IF he was Slightly tired from killing those 3 Masters at the onset, then yes that Also would have effected the rest of his performance in the Saber battle.
Gillard already said Mace and Sidious are both on the same level of Saber fighting. He never put Windu above Sidious. So when they're pretty equal already any circumstances will change who has the edge. Add in Force Powers and Sidious is just better.
The rest of your statement here is pretty nonsensical.
You've addressed the points but not brought any proof or anything new to the table. I on the other hand have brought proof after proof after proof to back my arguments.
And just to end it, I'll provide more proof:
From the official Star Wars website:
http://www.starwars.com/films/star-wars-episode-3-revenge-of-the-sith-story-gallery
"Yoda is eventually outmatched by Sidious. Beaten"
Yes that's right, in a True 1 vs 1 from the beginning of the fight, to the end, in an open environment where Sidious could unleash his Force Powers in FULL, and to their most effective use, The Most Devastatingly Powerful Foe the darkness had ever known, was simply outmatched and beaten.
So no the No.2 Jedi would not fair better if he took Yoda's place in the end fight there due to DIFFERENT STYLES!!!
All this time and still NO proof... You even FINALLY concede that no place are YOUR theories back up by Lucas.. by the writer or anybody really. That is all I wanted you to say. To placate a little... Yes, being in an enclosed environment could effect Sids. Yes, if the 3 jedi made sids tired at all or distracted it might've made the fight different. The problem is, I could list circumstances for every fight in the entire history of this world as I mentioned in my post to Arh. That isn't proof. Saying ohhh If this happened or if he did this ISN'T proof and you need to understand this point. Sure, it's nice to speculate on what if, but ultimately and you this, that isn't proof.
I think we've pretty much reach most of where we can get. I'll just address this one point of yours further... The most devastating foe.. I cited REAL life examples of how such a thing is irrelevant in fights. How styles make fights. Julio Chavez is considering one of the best boxers of all time.. called so by many people. Was the p4p best for many years and undefeated when he fought Whitaker. He has accomplished more and been praised by experts for than McGirt. Vastly more even. That didn't stop McGirt from giving Whitaker a better fight because his style was geared more for a boxer like whitaker. Yet if Chavez and McGirt fought... the style favors Chavez. Another example Anderson Silva.. called the greatest MW of all time.. Undefeated for years.. Beaten people vastly better in general and all time like Dan Henderson... Vitor Belfort. People who'd beat Sonnen, who has lost, what, 13 fights in his career to many scrubs. That didn't stop him from giving Silva a better fight than Henderson or Vitor or Rich or anybody really. Just because you're overall better or praised with titles or credentials doesn't mean you'll have the best matchup with everybody. Same thing here... Mace powerset gives him advantages over yoda against somebody like Sids. I've never argued Yoda isn't superior in the force.. but that doesn't mean mace doesn't bring abilities to the table that yoda doesn't have that give him a good chance with Sids.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and Lucas agrees.
Where exactly does Lucas agree?
I've noticed you love to include context when it suits you claiming "If Yoda battled Sidious on neutral ground he would have overpowered him in the force battle" even though they both went flying back.
Yet when it comes to 4 Jedi vs 1, and fighting in a hall way, then circumstances mean squat to you, and a Clear Narration is required to prove it means anything.
So please KT give me this narration from Lucas where he says fighting on the senate pod is the reason Yoda lost, and if not for that Yoda would have on.
Show the narration or concede your using Double Standards.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
All this time and still NO proof... You even FINALLY concede that no place are YOUR theories back up by Lucas.. by the writer or anybody really. That is all I wanted you to say. To placate a little... Yes, being in an enclosed environment could effect Sids. Yes, if the 3 jedi made sids tired at all or distracted it might've made the fight different. The problem is, I could list circumstances for every fight in the entire history of this world as I mentioned in my post to Arh. That isn't proof. Saying ohhh If this happened or if he did this ISN'T proof and you need to understand this point. Sure, it's nice to speculate on what if, but ultimately and you this, that isn't proof.
LOL
Wait, the 3 Jedi didn't even distract Sidious now? Your argument is getting silly.
So because every street fight has circumstances that means circumstances don't count now?
So if a 12 year old smashed a bottle on your head, then there's no excuses right? Because every fight has circumstances, so clearly the 12 year old just beat you fair and square right?
And beginning a fight with 4 vs 1 is just another circumstance right? And fighting in the Senate room or in a Hallway is exactly the same right?
Tell me would Yoda vs Sidious locked up in a cloak room to duke it out without Lightsabers be a fair fight as well, because every fight has circumstances right?
The environment's everything! There will be combatants who are better to adapting to different environments, but that's a totally different argument. Fact if Sidious was completely outnumbered when Windu came to face him, and that completely dictated HOW he HAD TO fight.
You want me to make a thread of Sidous, Tiin, Kolar and Fisto vs Mace Windu and see if anyone except you votes for Windu?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I think we've pretty much reach most of where we can get. I'll just address this one point of yours further... The most devastating foe.. I cited REAL life examples of how such a thing is irrelevant in fights. How styles make fights. Julio Chavez is considering one of the best boxers of all time.. called so by many people. Was the p4p best for many years and undefeated when he fought Whitaker. He has accomplished more and been praised by experts for than McGirt. Vastly more even. That didn't stop McGirt from giving Whitaker a better fight because his style was geared more for a boxer like whitaker. Yet if Chavez and McGirt fought... the style favors Chavez. Another example Anderson Silva.. called the greatest MW of all time.. Undefeated for years.. Beaten people vastly better in general and all time like Dan Henderson... Vitor Belfort. People who'd beat Sonnen, who has lost, what, 13 fights in his career to many scrubs. That didn't stop him from giving Silva a better fight than Henderson or Vitor or Rich or anybody really. Just because you're overall better or praised with titles or credentials doesn't mean you'll have the best matchup with everybody. Same thing here... Mace powerset gives him advantages over yoda against somebody like Sids. I've never argued Yoda isn't superior in the force.. but that doesn't mean mace doesn't bring abilities to the table that yoda doesn't have that give him a good chance with Sids.
And when Mike Tyson was the invincible Heavy Weight Champion of the world he got beat by Buster Douglas just because he was having personal problems in his life at the time. Does that mean Buster Douglas was the better boxer and that he would win a majority against Tyson? Of course not!
And the boxing ring itself doesn't even change. It's pretty much the same damn environment every time! So if boxing fights can have circumstances that effect that THAT MUCH in pretty much the same damn environment every time, imagine how different Lightsaber fights can be in completely different environments? Some closed, some open and spacious. Those environments would have a MASSIVE IMPACT on the fight. Let's not even talk about the controversy that would have happened had Tyson had to go a round with 3 Heavy weight amateur boxers right before his round with Douglas started.
And Tyson even had Douglas down for 10 seconds, but the ref didn't count it, so he got back up. Now according to you that shouldn't make a difference, because he should make up for it later in the fight? Yeah except he did technically win, but it wasn't allowed and he didn't win later.
Context and Environment is EVERYTHING!
Ok, so to you it's just ALL ABOUT STYLES. Fine so I guess you'll agree Dooku can take Windu because of a clash of styles right? Or Skywalker, he can take Windu too due to a clash of styles right? In fact either would take a majority against Windu due to a clash of styles right?
I know you'll agree because STYLE IS EVERYTHING to you, and DIFFERENT STYLES are all the explanations we need. Am I right?
Whatever advantages YOU CLAIM Windu has over Yoda and Sidious, he's still a less powerful combatant than both Yoda and Sidious. Perhaps he can win more against Sidious than he can against Yoda(I personally don't think he can win any against Yoda under fair circumstances) due to a CLASH OF STYLES. That much I can agree to. But you've got absolutely nothing to prove Windu wouldn't have lost to Sidious if he faced him in the scenario Yoda did in that final battle. And nothing to prove Windu wouldn't lose a large majority to Sidious in such a 1 vs 1 fight with plenty of space for Sidious to go all Out with his Force Powers. Absolutely nothing. Because the only time he faced Sidious was starting the fight with help, and in an environment and under a context that favored Mace much more.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOLWait, the 3 Jedi didn't even distract Sidious now? Your argument is getting silly.
So because every street fight has circumstances that means circumstances don't count now?
So if a 12 year old smashed a bottle on your head, then there's no excuses right? Because every fight has circumstances, so clearly the 12 year old just beat you fair and square right?
And beginning a fight with 4 vs 1 is just another circumstance right? And fighting in the Senate room or in a Hallway is exactly the same right?
Tell me would Yoda vs Sidious locked up in a cloak room to duke it out without Lightsabers be a fair fight as well, because every fight has circumstances right?
The environment's everything! There will be combatants who are better to adapting to different environments, but that's a totally different argument. Fact if Sidious was completely outnumbered when Windu came to face him, and that completely dictated HOW he HAD TO fight.
You want me to make a thread of Sidous, Tiin, Kolar and Fisto vs Mace Windu and see if anyone except you votes for Windu?
And when Mike Tyson was the invincible Heavy Weight Champion of the world he got beat by Buster Douglas just because he was having personal problems in his life at the time. Does that mean Buster Douglas was the better boxer and that he would win a majority against Tyson? Of course not!
And the boxing ring itself doesn't even change. It's pretty much the same damn environment every time! So if boxing fights can have circumstances that effect that THAT MUCH in pretty much the same damn environment every time, imagine how different Lightsaber fights can be in completely different environments? Some closed, some open and spacious. Those environments would have a MASSIVE IMPACT on the fight. Let's not even talk about the controversy that would have happened had Tyson had to go a round with 3 Heavy weight amateur boxers right before his round with Douglas started.
And Tyson even had Douglas down for 10 seconds, but the ref didn't count it, so he got back up. Now according to you that shouldn't make a difference, because he should make up for it later in the fight? Yeah except he did technically win, but it wasn't allowed and he didn't win later.
Context and Environment is EVERYTHING!
Ok, so to you it's just ALL ABOUT STYLES. Fine so I guess you'll agree Dooku can take Windu because of a clash of styles right? Or Skywalker, he can take Windu too due to a clash of styles right? In fact either would take a majority against Windu due to a clash of styles right?
I know you'll agree because STYLE IS EVERYTHING to you, and DIFFERENT STYLES are all the explanations we need. Am I right?
Whatever advantages YOU CLAIM Windu has over Yoda and Sidious, he's still a less powerful combatant than both Yoda and Sidious. Perhaps he can win more against Sidious than he can against Yoda(I personally don't think he can win any against Yoda under fair circumstances) due to a CLASH OF STYLES. That much I can agree to. But you've got absolutely nothing to prove Windu wouldn't have lost to Sidious if he faced him in the scenario Yoda did in that final battle. And nothing to prove Windu wouldn't lose a large majority to Sidious in such a 1 vs 1 fight with plenty of space for Sidious to go all Out with his Force Powers. Absolutely nothing. Because the only time he faced Sidious was starting the fight with help, and in an environment and under a context that favored Mace much more.
No what I'm saying is.. Circumstances can vary and change and some can impact a fight more than others. However, they are still there and present in every single real fight or fiction fight that has every happened. You do understand this point right. You understand that in any boxing match... mma fight.. real life fight.. I could find numerous well if he did or didn't do this it could've been different.. You understand that happens in every single fight right? Sids fight with Mace in no different, it had circumstances sure, but those circumstances don't prove Sids would've won. You can't prove a point with a negative. Well he didn't do this but if he had he would've won. Losing a fight by not doing something YOU think he should've doesn't PROVE he would've won. It's pure speculation and nothing. Sure it could be true and correct and maybe they could've, but that is almost the furthest thing from proving your case as possible.
You're saying 3 rounds with boxers.. that isn't close to the comparable analogy. One round many things can happen in 3 minutes. Sids dispatched him in 5 seconds flat. The analogy would be me Koing 3 guys in 3 punches before I fight somebody else. If I do that I could be like well it might've been different had I not had to do that. Okay.. THAT ISN'T PROOF THOUGH. However, I would likely say... if I wasn't injured.. or tired or blindside.. and then face my foe for ample time and still lost.. yeah I probably would've lost anyways. I had time to get it done and wasn't hurt and didn't That is the likely answer I would come 2 and one you should come to here.
The buster douglas example doesn't fly and if anything supports my case of style make fights. Douglas would always give Tyson issues.. He was a bid strong fight who fought tall.. had an excellent jab.. good combos and fought well outside. That was the exact style that would bother Tyson always. Yet, Douglas was KO"d by Holyfield and Razor... because he didn't match up as well with them. That just illustrates the point.. Styles make fights. There is no getting around this point DP and you know it. Being lauded as this or that or having this tittle of best fighter in the world doesn't mean you cant' have a weakness to a certain style. Catch phrase dont' mean much when anybody can beat anybody.
As I said, I understand you're trying to theorize and speculate on whether this would've been different or what could've changed. Who knows that is a possibility, however that isn't proof and you know this. Proof would be those theorize actually being confirmed by Lucas.. or the writer or the script.. SOMETHING. just like how the writer change the perspective to Dooku's and illustrated how he was getting fatigued. He was well aware of this issue and made it a point to illustrate it. he could've done the same with sids and found a way to illustrate it and back up your point. Guess what he didn't and didn't see the need to. There is no getting around this fact.
^ The proof is very clear cut.
Te most devastatingly powerful Jedi went all out but couldn't beat Sids. Yoda = Sids.
Mace = Talzin.
Yoda > Mace and Sidious > Talzin.
So there's clearly a noticeable difference between Sids and Mace.
So given that you'll need more proof that Mace wins some kind of majority against Sidious' s full powers, than the One fight where Mace begins with a 4 vs 1.
Especially since The novel giving us THE CLASH OF STYLES makes it perfectly clear that it was only some time into the fight After The other Jedi were killed that Mace was fully submerged in Vapaad.
You want to go by Narrative proof with Clash of Styles as the explanation for everything? That's fine. Dooku >/= Windu as clearly narrated in Dark Rendezvous.
How is this possible when Mace beat Sidious? Simple. It's clearly a Clash Of Styles!
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That simply is not true buddy. Yoda has been shown to be able to absorb lighting and then direct it back at his foe. He TK Sids across the room with ease. He stopped and then sent it back. Even in the force battle we discussed later... Yoda was overpowering Sids there as well. Yoda has plenty of options and isn't solely dependent on his saber.
This just makes no sense and I'm honestly surprised you even tried to formulate an argument around it being circumstantial. EVERY single fight in real life whether on the street corner or in the boxing ring or in the MMA ring is all circumstantial. It could depend on weather.... drinking... injury.. training.. what the game plan is... somebody not doubling up with the jab... a slip... not falling through with the game plan... There isn't a fight that has happened in the entire history of this world that doesn't have circumstances about it. That's a totally irrelevant point. IF you press the fight.. You can make somebody trip and fall... get too defensive and land a blow... in this case make your foe drop their weapon. it all doesn't matter. You pressed the fight and put somebody into a bad situation and disarmed them. It's that simple. Yoda disarmed sids in direct saber combat
Bottom line in VS threads there are no walls or confined platforms, which makes examples like these completely irrelevant to the thread and cannot be used as a proof.
Wait when did Sids search for Yoda himself? He sent his guards to look for him. Point is, it wouldn't be the first time Sids has given up first... Yoda never has. Yes it wouldn't surprise me one bit had the lighting dual continued on even ground (your circumstantial argument) Yoda would've overpowered him.. and Lucas agrees.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ The proof is very clear cut.Te most devastatingly powerful Jedi went all out but couldn't beat Sids. Yoda = Sids.
Mace = Talzin.
Yoda > Mace and Sidious > Talzin.
So there's clearly a noticeable difference between Sids and Mace.
So given that you'll need more proof that Mace wins some kind of majority against Sidious' s full powers, than the One fight where Mace begins with a 4 vs 1.
Especially since The novel giving us THE CLASH OF STYLES makes it perfectly clear that it was only some time into the fight After The other Jedi were killed that Mace was fully submerged in Vapaad.
You want to go by Narrative proof with Clash of Styles as the explanation for everything? That's fine. Dooku >/= Windu as clearly narrated in Dark Rendezvous.
How is this possible when Mace beat Sidious? Simple. It's clearly a Clash Of Styles!
Do you know how easily I could give excuses for Yoda not wining like you're trying to do with Sids? I could Theorize that yoda could've pressed his advantage when he TK'd sids across the room and kept on TKing him like a Ragdoll. I could argue... why did Sids leave the pod he was in with Sidious once he disarmed him instead of killing him right then and there? I could theorize that he should've had a tighter grip on his sword when palps fired lighting at him to disarm him. I could literally go on and on about that fight and theorize as to how Yoda could've won and the fight been different. Do you understand this DP? I'm honestly starting to wonder If you even grasp what proof is and facts. I like you DP but this is really starting to get humorous that you're calling what you provided proof.. when in reality the vast majority is speculation and your theory on what if. Those couldn't be the furthest thing from proof.
The only thing you've come with as far as something said in the novel because nothing else you're claiming is said. Is the most devastating foe.. Yet as I've proved that also isn't proof. Tittle aren't proof. Let me ask you.. did you understand the real life examples I provided and how being the best or considered one of the best all tme doesn't mean you'll give somebody a better fight than somebody who's considered a scrub (because of his skills against that particular foe) I'm genuinely curious if you understand this point?
Originally posted by Arhael
As evidenced when Yoda is getting barraged by lightning he can't redirect it at the same time, hence explosion occurred.
Yes, Yoda managed to Force push Sidious. Did it kill him? Exactly.
Plenty of options like what? TK is out of question. Yoda had to concentrate heavily to stop and throw single platform, Sidious did that to multiple platforms simultaneously without much strain.Again Yoda did not disarm Sidious. Sidious dropped his lightsaber himself, that's what it says in the script, deal with it. Had the platform been bigger, Sidious would just make a step or two back.
Similarly Dooku blocked Opress' attack, it took him off feat and as he hit the wall, he dropped lightsaber.Bottom line in VS threads there are no walls or confined platforms, which makes examples like these completely irrelevant to the thread and cannot be used as a proof.
From script:
"YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA. "
In film Sidious looks down the pod but sees only Yoda's tunic. Regardless, from film it is clear that Yoda is completely exhausted and is unable to continue the fight. The same is not certain about Sidious and even if he is completely exhausted as well, he is still more capable than a tiny midget that can't even walk properly.
It doesn't need to kill him.. It gained him the advantage and he could keep TKing all around the room if he so chooses. All he needs it to do is gain the advantage and TKing certainly did do that and would do that. We've seen him redirect lighting before and he could do so again.
You keep on bringing up the environment and circumstances.. Like I've told DP that isn't any form of proof. You saying this or that would've been different ISN'T PROOF. Your theories isn't proof. I could say it's very likely Yoda would've still been able to disarm him on level ground. Now prove me wrong that he never could.. See how that works? I could say oda would've have been sent backwards and flying if he was on the edge of the pod... Had they been on level ground yoda would've been right there to continue. Circumstances happen all the time in every single fight that has every occurred. Doesn't mean we can throw out the results because of circumstances. Doesn't work that way.
have you ever heard the saying... a good offense is the best defense? Have you ever watch a MMA fight? Dictating the pace and flow of the fight or pressing your foe can cause them to make errors. If you watch high level chess... players intentionally cause havoc and go against the grain by putting a piece for the taking just because it will then cause a frenzy that wasn't expected and hopefully your foe will make an error because of your aggressive even reckless move and open up an even bigger opening. being aggressive and pressing a fight and disarming somebody is disarming them. PERIOD end of story.
I repeat Sids NEVER searched for Yoda we see this is the highest form of canon. Try again buddy.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you know how easily I could give excuses for Yoda not wining like you're trying to do with Sids?
You... just were before. Saying Yoda would have won the Force duel if not fighting on the senate pod. You even claimed it was confirmed by Lucas.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I could Theorize that yoda could've pressed his advantage when he TK'd sids across the room and kept on TKing him like a Ragdoll. I could argue... why did Sids leave the pod he was in with Sidious once he disarmed him instead of killing him right then and there? I could theorize that he should've had a tighter grip on his sword when palps fired lighting at him to disarm him. I could literally go on and on about that fight and theorize as to how Yoda could've won and the fight been different.
Yeah the difference is both Yoda and Sids unleashed their full power on each other. They both went all out in Sabers and in the Force.
Neither of them were confined to a hall way where they couldn't go all out.
Neither of them were given the distraction of having to kill 3 lesser Jedi/Sith first.
Plus the novel makes it perfectly clear, that Yoda.. Just-Didn't-Have-it.
He simply wasn't powerful enough to defeat Sidious even Once, let alone for a Majority.
So I'm honestly shocked you think Windu can do for a majority what Yoda just can't seem to do even once. Defeat Sidious 1 v 1, no distractions, no restrictions.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you understand this DP? I'm honestly starting to wonder If you even grasp what proof is and facts. I like you DP but this is really starting to get humorous that you're calling what you provided proof.. when in reality the vast majority is speculation and your theory on what if. Those couldn't be the furthest thing from proof. The only thing you've come with as far as something said in the novel because nothing else you're claiming is said. Is the most devastating foe.. Yet as I've proved that also isn't proof. Tittle aren't proof. Let me ask you.. did you understand the real life examples I provided and how being the best or considered one of the best all tme doesn't mean you'll give somebody a better fight than somebody who's considered a scrub (because of his skills against that particular foe) I'm genuinely curious if you understand this point? [
Listen it's pretty rare when the argument you make is going to be written down somewhere in canon, flat for you to show.
If everything was written down like that then there'd be no point to debating these things.
But what I have done is BACK UP my arguments with Proof.
And I've provided more than enough proof that both Sidious and Yoda are more powerful than Windu.
Now don't get me wrong Windu is good. Good enough to compete against Sidious, heck good enough to even take a couple of wins out of 10. Something no one else in the time period besides Yoda is even capable of.
But don't tell me it's a Sidious =/> Yoda > Windu > Sidious scenario. It isn't. It's a scenario where Windu has a chance against Sidious, but is still below him overall. It's a scenario where Yoda and Sidious are the top dogs, and where Windu and Talzin are next in line.
The clash of styles you speak of is where Windu stands no chance to beat Yoda even once, but can beat Sidious maybe 2-3 out of 10. The clash of styles you speak of is where Sidious and Yoda likely just stalemate 10/10, but Windu beats Sidious 3/10 and loses 7/10. That's where the Clash of Styles comes in. But different styles doesn't change Windu being a level below both Yoda and Sidious in overall power.
"As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation. However, the equation is not so simple. Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force. The Force allows you to anticipate your opponent’s moves and counter them with your own. But the more options your foe has available, the more difficult it is to predict which will be chosen."--- Path of Destruction
Mace simply did that.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You... just were before. Saying Yoda would have won the Force duel if not fighting on the senate pod. You even claimed it was confirmed by Lucas.Yeah the difference is both Yoda and Sids unleashed their full power on each other. They both went all out in Sabers and in the Force.
Neither of them were confined to a hall way where they couldn't go all out.
Neither of them were given the distraction of having to kill 3 lesser Jedi/Sith first.
Plus the novel makes it perfectly clear, that Yoda.. Just-Didn't-Have-it.
He simply wasn't powerful enough to defeat Sidious even Once, let alone for a Majority.
So I'm honestly shocked you think Windu can do for a majority what Yoda just can't seem to do even once. Defeat Sidious 1 v 1, no distractions, no restrictions.
Listen it's pretty rare when the argument you make is going to be written down somewhere in canon, flat for you to show.
If everything was written down like that then there'd be no point to debating these things.
But what I have done is BACK UP my arguments with Proof.
And I've provided more than enough proof that both Sidious and Yoda are more powerful than Windu.
Now don't get me wrong Windu is good. Good enough to compete against Sidious, heck good enough to even take a couple of wins out of 10. Something no one else in the time period besides Yoda is even capable of.
But don't tell me it's a Sidious =/> Yoda > Windu > Sidious scenario. It isn't. It's a scenario where Windu has a chance against Sidious, but is still below him overall. It's a scenario where Yoda and Sidious are the top dogs, and where Windu and Talzin are next in line.The clash of styles you speak of is where Windu stands no chance to beat Yoda even once, but can beat Sidious maybe 2-3 out of 10. The clash of styles you speak of is where Sidious and Yoda likely just stalemate 10/10, but Windu beats Sidious 3/10 and loses 7/10. That's where the Clash of Styles comes in. But different styles doesn't change Windu being a level below both Yoda and Sidious in overall power.
This is totally and completely false DP you haven't back up your claims with proof. Think about This is your conclusion
Sids should beat mace pretty much every time. and your "proof" to back up this claim
3 fodder jedi and the confined space.. if it wasn't for that he would've won. you "support" for that so called "theory"... wait for it ... wait for it
Yoda couldn't beat yoda and he was the most devastating foe. THAT ISN'T PROOF.
Literally most of what you're calling proof to support your conclusion is NEVER ONCE IN ANY MEDIUM EVER STATED. We have a writer well aware of multiple foes and the negative things they can cause. he even wrote one fight talking about. Guess what he said nothing in the Sids fight. Thus PROVING it wasn't a factor in his eyes. If it was, he would've written it that way as he did before, he didn't. You support your own conclusion with YOUR theories. Do you understand that isn't proof? I'm honestly really confused if you get that you're supporting YOUR conclusion with YOUR theories? That isn't proof DP.
As for your last paragraph...it was a start to what I'm saying about styles and illustrates my point. about the devastating foe meaning very little. Titles and acclaim mean very little when you're in that ring. A fighter with 30 losses can pose more of a problem to somebody undefeated if his style is suited better. That's just how every single fight is and they are all different. Mace presents different challenges to Sids that Yoda doesn't. I think you understand this point so we'll drop that part of it.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Right and I never argued otherwise. However, Mace brings things to the table that can beat sids that Yoda can't. There is no getting around this point.
And Mace being less Powerful than both Yoda and Sidious also means Windu would Die more often than not against Sidious. Yoda was the most devastatingly powerful foe Sidious ever faced. Not WINDU.
Sidious unleashed his full powers on Yoda, not on Windu.
Yoda didn't take help to face Sidious. Mace did. The novel confirms it took Windu time to sink into Vapaad (that thing Mace brings to the table that Yoda doesn't) so the Jedi distractions clearly did help!
No dancing around these facts are going to change that.
We've come full circle here and we aren't getting anywhere, so I'm done.
But I've given more than enough proof that Yoda was the biggest threat to Sidious not Windu, and that Windu clearly is below them both.
All you've brought to the table is "Nooo!! Windu beat Sidious!! Vapaad rules! Context means nothing! Different Styles man !"
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Mace being less Powerful than both Yoda and Sidious also means Windu would Die more often than not against Sidious. Yoda was the most devastatingly powerful foe Sidious ever faced. Not WINDU.Sidious unleashed his full powers on Yoda, not on Windu.
Yoda didn't take help to face Sidious. Mace did. The novel confirms it took Windu time to sink into Vapaad (that thing Mace brings to the table that Yoda doesn't) so the Jedi distractions clearly did help!
No dancing around these facts are going to change that.
We've come full circle here and we aren't getting anywhere, so I'm done.
But I've given me than enough proof that Yoda was the biggest that to Sidious not Windu, and that Windu clearly is below them both.
All you've brought to the table is "Nooo!! Windu beat Sidious!! Vapaad rules! Context means nothing! !"
your summary of my argument isn't close to true
you have miserably failed to prove your case as my previous post clearly shows. I mean what you called "proof" is beyond laughable
What I call proof is actually written in the book or appears in the movie. Not one of your theories appear. See the difference in who's proved more? It's unquestionably me, and it's not close
You're right though, we've come full circle here and there isn't much to gain about more convo. Even though I disagree with some of what you've said it's still be fun in a way. As I said, I enjoy our convos DP, we just don't always agree on things.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
your summary of my argument isn't close to trueyou have miserably failed to prove your case as my previous post clearly shows. I mean what you called "proof" is beyond laughable
What I call proof is actually written in the book or appears in the movie. Not one of your theories appear. See the difference in who's proved more? It's unquestionably me, and it's not close
You're right though, we've come full circle here and there isn't much to gain about more convo. Even though I disagree with some of what you've said it's still be fun in a way. As I said, I enjoy our convos DP, we just don't always agree on things.
That's strange because I've brought up direct quotes from the ROTS Novel and from the Website, whilst you have not.
In fact the very novel you keep referencing which apparently makes it clear that Mace won "due to Vapaad and Shatterpoint" also makes it crystal clear that Sidious's lightning was beyond Vapaad. The same Lightning Lucas confirms Sidious only stopped firing because he was pretending to be weak, despite the fact he was lying on his ass at the time.
You see KT, Windu obviously has a fair chance to take a Lightsaber fight against Sids, but there's more to an All-Out than just Sabers. Especially when it comes to the most powerful dark side practitioner.
That is why I'm not going to agree that there is some kind of parity between Windu, Sidious and Yoda, and it is a simple case of different styles making Windu better than Sidious.
If Windu beat Sidious without any help at the beginning of their fight, handling the full brunt of Sidious's force powers (like Yoda did), and without a scene of him feigning weakness, then I would agree with you. But the circumstances that have been given and described in the novel just do not prove Windu being Sidious's equal/superior.
KT I know you like Windu and will always champion his cause, so we will never agree on this, but still you bring up some good points related to combat, and I certainly prefer debating you to some of the real fanboys on this forum.