@DP
Lucas never said there is a parity between Windu and Yoda / Sidious, he said you need to be Yoda or Windu to challange to Emperor, which is why Mace can challenge him any day. Saber is the primary power in battles, not force powers, that is why someone like Sidious or Plagueis had to learn high level lightsaber styles and skills despite the fact that they would prefer to fight with force powers in general.
Originally posted by Marco1907
@DPLucas never said there is a parity between Windu and Yoda / Sidious, he said you need to be Yoda or Windu to challange to Emperor, which is why Mace can challenge him any day.
Challenging, or being a serious threat is different to being on par.
Lucas said before AOTC when asked about Yoda's fighting skills that we'll see why he's called "The Master."
Gillard said in the AOTC Commentary (again talking about combat skills) that "We know Mace is 2nd only to Yoda."
The ROTS Novel calls Yoda the "Most Devastatingly Powerful Foe the Darkness had ever known."
Filoni talks about TCW how it was always immensely difficult to do a story arch involving Yoda because no one can compete against Yoda. He never had that problem with Windu.
Also in TCW Windu fought on par with Talzin, who is < Sidious, as seen in SOD.
There's just tons and tons of evidence that Yoda > Windu in combat. Greater by a tier. There's also tons of evidence that Yoda and Sidious are equals, and that Yoda for all his power and skill can not defeat Sidious. Which is why I find it Impossible to believe that the No.2 Jedi can take some kind of majority against Yoad's equal.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Saber is the primary power in battles, not force powers, that is why someone like Sidious or Plagueis had to learn high level lightsaber styles and skills despite the fact that they would prefer to fight with force powers in general.
I know, and that's why Windu has a chance to take out Sidious. Still Sidious has Mastered all 7 forms, and according to Gillard iMace and Sidious are on the same level in Sabers.
So parity in Sabers, but 1 has much greater Force Powers. The Force Powers will definitely be the deciding factor the vast majority of the time. I mean we are talking about a guy who can Pin Maul and Opress together to a wall, crushing them. And who can Force choke Count Dooku from across the Solar System.
Also Yoda's and Sidious's battle cam down to Force Powers. It was because of Sidious's Force Powers, that Yoda couldn't defeat him. Sabers were just a portion of that battle. A battle that truly was an "All-Out scenario."
For guys like Sidious and Yoda who have such great Force Powers, that certainly will be a factor in an All-Out.
@DP
How can you be sure about Talzin = Mace ? Talzin has a weird magick which is turning into intangible form instantly, defeating her with lightsaber is almost impossible without weakened her. That is why Sidious shut his lightsaber and used his force powers to defeat her, and that is why Grievous and his droid army failed to destroy her at the beginning and that is why Sidious said sending a droid army would be useless against a powerful witch like her. Mace can't defeat Talzin because of that sole reason.
Not to mention Talzin is already powerful and she can challange Sidious or Yoda, just like Mace can.
Talzin vanishing into mist is because she could only stay in her physical firm temporarily until she siphoned Dooku, at which point she was permanently in her physical form (according to Jeremy Barlow).
Still Windu fought Talzin on her physical form as did Sidious. But Sidious fought her on her personal nexus.
Of course Talzin and Mace can challenge Sidious. But they would lose a majority.
I don't know why KT thinks Saber styles changes the outcome of a battle of the Force. If Windu can take a majority against Sidious in Sabers, that still only results in a minority of wins in an All-Out scenario. Because a Force Battle goes to Sidious over Windu 10/10.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Challenging, or being a serious threat is different to being on par.Lucas said before AOTC when asked about Yoda's fighting skills that we'll see why he's called "The Master."
Gillard said in the AOTC Commentary (again talking about combat skills) that "We know Mace is 2nd only to Yoda."
The ROTS Novel calls Yoda the "Most Devastatingly Powerful Foe the Darkness had ever known."
Filoni talks about TCW how it was always immensely difficult to do a story arch involving Yoda because no one can compete against Yoda. He never had that problem with Windu.
Also in TCW Windu fought on par with Talzin, who is < Sidious, as seen in SOD.
There's just tons and tons of evidence that Yoda > Windu in combat. Greater by a tier. There's also tons of evidence that Yoda and Sidious are equals, and that Yoda for all his power and skill can not defeat Sidious. Which is why I find it Impossible to believe that the No.2 Jedi can take some kind of majority against Yoad's equal.
I know, and that's why Windu has a chance to take out Sidious. Still Sidious has Mastered all 7 forms, and according to Gillard iMace and Sidious are on the same level in Sabers.
So parity in Sabers, but 1 has much greater Force Powers. The Force Powers will definitely be the deciding factor the vast majority of the time. I mean we are talking about a guy who can Pin Maul and Opress together to a wall, crushing them. And who can Force choke Count Dooku from across the Solar System.
Also Yoda's and Sidious's battle cam down to Force Powers. It was because of Sidious's Force Powers, that Yoda couldn't defeat him. Sabers were just a portion of that battle. A battle that truly was an "All-Out scenario."
For guys like Sidious and Yoda who have such great Force Powers, that certainly will be a factor in an All-Out.
Of course Yoda can defeat Sids buddy... That goes without saying. While Mace can defeat Sids via saber skills that Yoda doesn't have. Yoda still disarmed him none the less. Was overpowering his lighting and made Sids have the ohhh shit look. Defied gravity and the TK force push of sids on the pod and sent it back to him. TK Sids across the room. Yoda can defeat sids and to say he can't is kinda silly buddy and you know it.
You keep acting like Sids ONLY used his saber... this isn't true as I've documented. He used lighting against Sids.. he force pushed Mace. It wasn't just a saber battle. Sure he has more powers he could've used that he bring to the table... but maybe Mace didn't allow him to sue them. That doesn't mean we through out the fight because he didn't. If a boxer presses the fight and puts his head another fight every chance he gets to work the body and make it an inside fight because he knows that boxer prefers to fight on the outside. We don't throw out the win because... oohhh he didn't let him fight the way he likes and is best at... HUH? That is exactly what you're supposed to do. Maybe Mace knew exactly what you're talking to and guided the fight that way.. or pressed it enough so Sids didn't have time to. WE just don't know.. but Sids not doing something you feel he should've can never be described as proof.
BTW... Buddy DP.. You know I like Kenobi even more than Mace.. Let's not get the Kenobi vs. Maul thing started again LOL.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Of course Yoda can defeat Sids buddy... That goes without saying. While Mace can defeat Sids via saber skills that Yoda doesn't have. Yoda still disarmed him none the less. Was overpowering his lighting and made Sids have the ohhh shit look. Defied gravity and the TK force push of sids on the pod and sent it back to him. TK Sids across the room. Yoda can defeat sids and to say he can't is kinda silly buddy and you know it.
Interesting. Tell me, can Sidious defeat Mace or Yoda?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You keep acting like Sids ONLY used his saber... this isn't true as I've documented. He used lighting against Sids.. he force pushed Mace. It wasn't just a saber battle. Sure he has more powers he could've used that he bring to the table... but maybe Mace didn't allow him to sue them. That doesn't mean we through out the fight because he didn't.
He got 1 single Force push mid-saber battle, (according to the novel and script) which Windu just barely recovered from. The novel makes it clear Sidious almost had the fight then, from a single force push.
As for the Lightning he shot from a great position (lying on his butt right in Windu's Blade's reach), the novel clearly states that Lightning was "Beyond Vapaad", and Lucas specifically confirms Sids only stops shooting his Lightning because he's pretending to be weak.
So considering these 2 facts about the 1 Force push which almost gave Sids the fight and the Lightning which was "Beyond Vapaad" and where he "faked weakness" then imagine if not for those 3 Jedi Masters at the beginning of the fight. If Sidious went all out with his Force Powers 1 on 1 against Windu as Windu approached him to fight in the first place?
Can you honestly say Windu would still have an equal chance of winning?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
If a boxer presses the fight and puts his head another fight every chance he gets to work the body and make it an inside fight because he knows that boxer prefers to fight on the outside. We don't throw out the win because... oohhh he didn't let him fight the way he likes and is best at... HUH? That is exactly what you're supposed to do. Maybe Mace knew exactly what you're talking to and guided the fight that way.. or pressed it enough so Sids didn't have time to. WE just don't know.. but Sids not doing something you feel he should've can never be described as proof.
Yeah except in this case he brought help forcing Sidious to fight in close quarter combat.
If a boxer has help even for a few seconds, I'm pretty sure that's an instant disqualification.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
BTW... Buddy DP.. You know I like Kenobi even more than Mace.. Let's not get the Kenobi vs. Maul thing started again LOL.
Ooohh, you had to say Kenobi vs Maul didn't you? Because Kenobi against anyone else and I'd probably take your side.
But Maul's my favorite character at the moment. Although I do love me some Obi-Wan as well. Tempest will confirm that for you.
Tough call buddy.. It's really tough... Put it this way.. I think Mace is a better more seasoned fighter than Sids... and he brings things to the table that Sids has a hard time dealing with that no other jedi brings to the table. Thus, it could very well be that Mace can pull a majority because he'll always know how to lead a fight and how to overcome him. That being said, if Mace doesn't do that and keep a fight to his strength... sids would take a majority because he's just overall more powerful. So I would give Sids the overall advantage all things being equal. However, Mace is just cagey enough and ruthless enough himself that he could just prevent it from getting where he's not at his strength... and in that case.. Mace would always take a majority keeping it a mostly saber battle.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He got 1 single Force push mid-saber battle, (according to the novel and script) which Windu just barely recovered from. The novel makes it clear Sidious almost had the fight then, from a single force push.As for the Lightning he shot from a great position (lying on his butt right in Windu's Blade's reach), the novel clearly states that Lightning was "Beyond Vapaad", and Lucas specifically confirms Sids only stops shooting his Lightning because he's pretending to be weak.
So considering these 2 facts about the 1 Force push which almost gave Sids the fight and the Lightning which was "Beyond Vapaad" and where he "faked weakness" then imagine if not for those 3 Jedi Masters at the beginning of the fight. If Sidious went all out with his Force Powers 1 on 1 against Windu as Windu approached him to fight in the first place?
Can you honestly say Windu would still have an equal chance of winning?
Yeah except in this case he brought help forcing Sidious to fight in close quarter combat.
If a boxer has help even for a few seconds, I'm pretty sure that's an instant disqualification.
Ooohh, you had to say Kenobi vs Maul didn't you? Because Kenobi against anyone else and I'd probably take your side.
But Maul's my favorite character at the moment. Although I do love me some Obi-Wan as well. Tempest will confirm that for you.
You keep bringing up this point about the 3 jedi help made the fight into close quarters combat. This could be further from the truth. Even if he went there alone.. the environment would still be the same. It would be in the same office.. same hallway... all of it would be the same. That is a totally irrelevant point DP. Like seriously.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So I would give Sids the overall advantage all things being equal.
That's cool then. We don't really have much to argue in that case. Just you'd give Mace more wins than I would, but we both agree Mace can take some wins (something that no other Jedi/Sith except Yoda can do), but Sidious is more powerful overall and therefore the majority(or advantage as you put it) is with Sids.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You keep bringing up this point about the 3 jedi help made the fight into close quarters combat. This could be further from the truth. Even if he went there alone.. the environment would still be the same. It would be in the same office.. same hallway... all of it would be the same. That is a totally irrelevant point DP. Like seriously.
He could have began the fight with his Force Powers. He did with Yoda. He did with Maul/Opress as well. And on Luke too. So it is in character for him to Unleash his Power from the onset.
Oh and even in the Saber fight, Mace takes time to fully submerge himself in Vapaad(according to the novel). So any distractions costing time would help Windu (even though that wasn't exactly his intention in bringing them).
If Sidious went all out with his Force Powers 1 on 1 against Windu as Windu approached him to fight in the first place?
That's cool then. We don't really have much to argue in that case. Just you'd give Mace more wins than I would, but we both agree Mace can take some wins (something that no other Jedi/Sith except Yoda can do), but Sidious is more powerful overall and therefore the majority(or advantage as you put it) is with Sids.
I share his opinion that B-team were irrelevant fodder and made no difference. Although outcome of the fight could still be different because removing B-team would cause butterfly effect.
Regardless there is no need to consider B-team to know that Sidious would win a majority.
Originally posted by Arhael
Honestly I don't think that would change anything.
That's a bit strange, thinking Force Powers would make no difference to the fight. It clearly had a massive impact on the Yoda/Sidious fight. But of course that was a more ideal environment to use Force Powers.
Originally posted by Arhael
I share his opinion that B-team were irrelevant fodder and made no difference. Although outcome of the fight could still be different because removing B-team would cause butterfly effect.
I mean butterfly effect has to be considered. Just based on that it changed the fight. Especially when you consider Sidious was the one on the offensive for those first 20 seconds, 7 of which were spent on the other Jedi. Not saying Sidious would have won the Saber fight if the moves changed slightly, but saying that you don't know what can change when the beginning moves of a fight are changed like that.
So on 1 hand KT's right that Sidious had more than enough time to get the fight back on his side, but on the other hand, it did change the beginning of the fight, and we can't really say for sure how the moves of the sword fight would have changed.
But I Still think the big difference those Jedi would have made if forcing Sidious into a sword fight from the get go. His preference seems to be to use his Force Powers, and only take out his Saber when he needs to.
Originally posted by Arhael
Regardless there is no need to consider B-team to know that Sidious would win a majority.
True. I just think it's important for people to accept all the contextual and environmental differences between the Sidious/Windu and Sidious/Yoda fight, as there are people who will just say Mace =/> Yoda and Sidious based on him winning.
KT in particular tends to go with the theory that the winner is better. As seen in with his TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul statement.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's a bit strange, thinking Force Powers would make no difference to the fight. It clearly had a massive impact on the Yoda/Sidious fight. But of course that was a more ideal environment to use Force Powers.
When Sidious fought Yoda, he started using Force only when he gained safe distance. And he used TK to throw objects instead of attacking Yoda directly. Sure if there was plenty of loose objects in the office, Windu would have harder time but otherwise no difference.
Same way I assume that Yoda didn't use Force on Dooku because it wouldn't work.
Originally posted by Arhael
Sidious did attack Windu with lightning and it didn't work.
Dunno, I thought the FL was pretty effective. It had Windu screaming, and was stopping him from using his Saber against Sidious.
And that was from a pretty disadvantageous position.
I'm just saying is in character for Sidious to use Tk/Fl when he's at a safe distance. It's the first attack in the Maul/Opress fight, pinning them to the wall. He choked Dooku over a hologram, his first move against Yoda is an Fl blast as he's approaching him e.t.c.
Remember Dooku vs Anakin on TCW movie.. Anakin caught Dooku off guard with a Force push, but then the distance it caused gave Dooku the opportunity to turn it into a Force contest which Dooku won.
Also remember in the Dooku vs Anakin/Obi-Wan TCW S6 fight. The duo shoot at Dooku with Tk but he dodges it. He then shoots them back, and they are ready for it, and try to block it, but are still hit back, and that was 2 of them combining their efforts. So clearly all you need(as long as you're more powerful than your opponent on the Force) is some distance which Sidious had when his opponents are first approaching him.
I think Sidious and Yoda were equally powerful which is why throwing objects was a better tactic than a direct force push.
That's my take on Force Powers anyway. But you're right that as soon as you're in close-quarters combat then you either have to catch your opponent off guard (which even the weaker opponent can do actually) or get some distance to turn it into a force fight.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dunno, I thought the FL was pretty effective. It had Windu screaming, and was stopping him from using his Saber against Sidious.And that was from a pretty disadvantageous position.
I'm just saying is in character for Sidious to use Tk/Fl when he's at a safe distance. It's the first attack in the Maul/Opress fight, pinning them to the wall. He choked Dooku over a hologram, his first move against Yoda is an Fl blast as he's approaching him e.t.c.
Remember Dooku vs Anakin on TCW movie.. Anakin caught Dooku off guard with a Force push, but then the distance it caused gave Dooku the opportunity to turn it into a Force contest which Dooku won.
Also remember in the Dooku vs Anakin/Obi-Wan TCW S6 fight. The duo shoot at Dooku with Tk but he dodges it. He then shoots them back, and they are ready for it, and try to block it, but are still hit back, and that was 2 of them combining their efforts. So clearly all you need(as long as you're more powerful than your opponent on the Force) is some distance which Sidious had when his opponents are first approaching him.
I think Sidious and Yoda were equally powerful which is why throwing objects was a better tactic than a direct force push.
That's my take on Force Powers anyway. But you're right that as soon as you're in close-quarters combat then you either have to catch your opponent off guard (which even the weaker opponent can do actually) or get some distance to turn it into a force fight.
Sidious chose to attack the team with lightsaber. He dispatched first two opponents without any heavy Force effort. I doubt had he attacked them with Force instead, it would be more effective. In my view that's Sidious all out, even though he did not use Force attacks.
Bottom line we don't know if Sidious would be more effective had he tried to attack with TK or lightning during combat. Whether he chooses to attack with saber or Force, it's a gamble either way.
^ Oh I agree in that situation he HAD TO go for a Saber blitz against the 3 other Jedi. That was his best and only option. That's my point. On a one on one with Windu he'd have more options.
I don't believe lying on his ass right under Windu was the best place to shoot FL from. I seriously doubt if he was standing a few feet away that the Lightning still would have deflected right back to his face.
Windu was screaming in pain Imo. The novel even says the Fl was Beyond Vapaad and in both the novel and the script he asks Anakin for help. Plus Lucas even says Sidious was faking being weak.
So on Force Powers Sidious is definitely a level above Windu which would give him the solid advantage in an all out IMHO.