dragonball z lightspeed

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
And their counter-argument relies on the basis that Frieza would sit over a barely conscious Vegeta with his fist hovering for an extended period. Usually when someone cocks their fist back, they mean to punch. 👆

Recommend what you may, but the fact of the matter, is that the person here who is suggesting Frieza to sit over Vegeta with his fist cocked back, waiting for someone to come save him, is totally retarded. I'll do that, while you get back to your special ed. 😉

Judging your posts you might also want to take a class to deal with hurt feelings a bit better as well.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Or he could have pulled it back right as Goku got there, and not right as Goku left. 👆

Judging your posts you might also want to take a class to deal with hurt feelings a bit better as well.

What about this don't you understand? Cocking your arm back is still part of a strike, dummy. Either way, Goku still got there faster than Freiza could strike.

Yes, and maybe then I could provide you the psychological, as well as mental help that you so desperately need. 👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

Originally posted by NemeBro
Your entire argument hinges on the claim that Goku traveled any distance in a span of time between Freeza throwing a punch and that punch hitting Vegeta. There is no proof of this claim, nor did you even address it in your latest few posts. Therefore, you have no argument. No one should feel compelled to respond to you anymore.

When you finally graduate high school and have some spare time on your hands I'd recommend taking a course in Logic. It would help you a great deal.

Normally I ignore peoples posts like this, saying not to waste time with such a person, with obligation to continue the debate. But I skimmed through your response and it was so dreadfully awful I can't see the reason to be bothered, nor see the reason as I fail to see a single proven counter or a person agreeing with anything you're saying on this matter. Even Carver.

Have to say the first line was beautiful though. That 99% is untrue where its all backed by scans, statements and even basic logic, all pointing to the same answer.

But what was your argument again? Some english page and believing for no reason a punch was thrown? Have fun with your belief, you're the only one who will believe it 👆

Originally posted by BloodRain
Normally I ignore peoples posts like this, saying not to waste time with such a person, with obligation to continue the debate. But I skimmed through your response and it was so dreadfully awful I can't see the reason to be bothered, nor see the reason as I fail to see a single proven counter or a person agreeing with anything you're saying on this matter. Even Carver.

Have to say the first line was beautiful though. That 99% is untrue where its all backed by scans, statements and even basic logic, all pointing to the same answer.

But what was your argument again? Some english page and believing for no reason a punch was thrown? Have fun with your belief, you're the only one who will believe it 👆

thumbsup

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Uh, the one from the Spectre WAS a speech bubble. If Supeyrman was going so fast, he should have in no way/shape or form been able to hear that. Either way, it was just a comparison to prove that it happens all the time in fiction. There's no point in arguing about PIS.

When did I bring up the anime? You were the one using the time frame we SEE in the anime as a gauge to speculate on the time span. That's retarded, and hilarious.

Buu did circle the planet in less than a second. Much less, in fact. the only thing you're arguing here is the fact that they were speaking, which proves nothing as it holds no water unless you can prove that the characters were speaking at human speeds(which you can't). Either way though, you can't argue about PIS, so I'm dropping it. Toriyama has never done a good job at using science anyway. He made an anime were characters can blow up stars, fly, ride flying cars, and other junk like moving FTL. Anything in a series that goes FTL doesn't surprise me. Again, you can't use science to determine these things. It's a cartoon for god sake. GG ❌

There is no proof Superman heard what The Specter said. In fact as he gets up he says he doesn't know what he even ran into. But again that has nothing to do with DB so why bring it up? Again if you want to debate Superman or his comic logic open a thread. This isn't the place

We can't "SEE" what's on the page???? We can only "SEE" what's on tv? Not a very solid stance you have there. We do in fact "SEE" what's shown on panel and everything I've said is shown. You are debating what we don't see and what you hope is the case

When have these characters been shown once to "speak at light speed" or any other speed faster than normal? Also for your case to hold up we would have to pretend the sound of their voices suddenly picked up speed too for it to work. Any proof of this at all or just more baseless speculation?

I posted the page and broke down what we clearly "SEE" and all you've done is give me "maybes" and "could bes" and "ifs" and "we don't knows". You really don't have a stance

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What about this don't you understand? Cocking your arm back is still part of a strike, dummy. Either way, Goku still got there faster than Freiza could strike.

Yes, and maybe then I could provide you the psychological, as well as mental help that you so desperately need. 👆

Speaking of which, that isn't what I said, sorry, given your aforementioned history of poor reading comprehension I should have been more careful in my wording.

It isn't that Goku could have gotten there in the time he cocked his arm back; that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that we only see Freeza's arm cocked back by the time Goku gets there. We don't see at what point Freeza started the "cocked back" motion, we just know that when Goku stopped moving, Freeza's arm was cocked back. He could have cocked it back when Goku was ten feet from reaching his destination, he could have cocked it back when Goku was a hundred feet. We do not know.

Furthermore, given later events we know that even 1% Freeza would have been holding back tremendously for that to be possible. Because even 1% Freeza is faster than than Goku in that relatively non-powered up state.

So for this feat you are claiming is 100% certain to even be possible, Freeza would have to be moving more slowly than his maximum speed cocking the punch back or throwing it for Goku to have made it there in that time frame. So, the question is how much was Freeza holding back. We don't know, it is impossible to determine the exact time.

And that's the problem, isn't it? The feat you are supporting is based on a lot of assumptions. Assumptions like Freeza beginning the process of punching Vegeta before or as Goku left the ship. Or assumptions like Freeza not holding back his speed a considerable amount in the motion, which would pretty much have to be the case. Goku's punches are not as quick as Freeza's, he is certainly not capable of flying a few kilometers (the actual distance) in the time it takes Freeza to throw a punch, much less many thousand.

There is no feat, you have no argument. 👆

Originally posted by juggerman
You're kidding right? Did you even follow the links? He says another strong fighter is here meaning he feels the ki. That's what he was closing in on

Why would Buuhan need to go his top speed to reach a speed Goku could achieve before he even hit SSJ1?

Agreed on the first part.

Exactly, you're catching on. You used that scan as evidence that Buu couldn't reach light speed. Nothing in your scan was shown of him even trying to reach his max speed, let alone half of it. We just see him flying to them boasting, that's it. Now if there was something said during that scene of him moving his max, then you'll have an argument, but nothing was said. Also, if he was going anywhere close to his tops, Vegeta nor Goku would have saw him at all due to the large speed difference between the two. So with that said, your post was irrelevant.

Originally posted by carver9
Agreed on the first part.

Exactly, you're catching on. You used that scan as evidence that Buu couldn't reach light speed. Nothing in your scan was shown of him even trying to reach his max speed, let alone half of it. We just see him flying to them boasting, that's it. Now if there was something said during that scene of him moving his max, then you'll have an argument, but nothing was said. Also, if he was going anywhere close to his tops, Vegeta nor Goku would have saw him at all due to the large speed difference between the two. So with that said, your post was irrelevant.

if hes ls even if buu was going at half his power or half the speed of light he would have gotten there before the convo ended

wait hold up i just skimmed a couple posts did someone try to argue that dbz characters talk faster than the speed of light lol or did i read wrong

Originally posted by chasedown
if hes ls even if buu was going at half his power or half the speed of light he would have gotten there before the convo ended

Even if he was going half his speed or a fraction, Black hair Goku and Vegeta should not be able to see him, don't you agree. Remember, Frieza used 1% of his power and was still too fast for Piccolo and the other Z fighters to detect. Now compare the difference in power to the strongest Buu and Black hair Goku and Vegeta and you should see where I'm going with this.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Is the person who can't even read an OP properly really the one who should be insulting people's intelligence? 🙂

Speaking of which, that isn't what I said, sorry, given your aforementioned history of poor reading comprehension I should have been more careful in my wording.

It isn't that Goku could have gotten there in the time he cocked his arm back; that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that we only see Freeza's arm cocked back by the time Goku gets there. We don't see at what point Freeza started the "cocked back" motion, we just know that when Goku stopped moving, Freeza's arm was cocked back. He could have cocked it back when Goku was ten feet from reaching his destination, he could have cocked it back when Goku was a hundred feet. We do not know.

Furthermore, given later events we know that even 1% Freeza would have been holding back tremendously for that to be possible. Because even 1% Freeza is faster than than Goku in that relatively non-powered up state.

So for this feat you are claiming is 100% certain to even be possible, Freeza would have to be moving more slowly than his maximum speed cocking the punch back or throwing it for Goku to have made it there in that time frame. So, the question is how much was Freeza holding back. We don't know, it is impossible to determine the exact time.

And that's the problem, isn't it? The feat you are supporting is based on a lot of assumptions. Assumptions like Freeza beginning the process of punching Vegeta before or as Goku left the ship. Or assumptions like Freeza not holding back his speed a considerable amount in the motion, which would pretty much have to be the case. Goku's punches are not as quick as Freeza's, he is certainly not capable of flying a few kilometers (the actual distance) in the time it takes Freeza to throw a punch, much less many thousand.

There is no feat, you have no argument. 👆

Go ahead and dodge the debate all you want by bringing up irrelevant things, it only makes you look dumber.

So your argument is that Frieza COULD have cocked his arm back when Goku was almost there? I wonder who's guessing things here... Basically, that is not even an argument. Goku took off, and Frieza was already over Vegeta. If he had his arm cocked back by the time Goku got there, it means Goku STILL got there before Frieza could grab Vegeta and punch him. That is STILL THE SAME FEAT.

👆

Also, Goku was using kaioken the entire fight, as stated by King Kai. The only one assuming things here is you. The power levels are shown in the daizenshuu, Goku in base without kaioken was 3 million, and Frieza 1%(which it explicitly states is the power he used against Vegeta and friends), is 6 million. Goku appeared with a bright aura, something he typically only has when using a buff, or is at full power. King Kai stated Goku was using Kaioken from the beginning of his fight against Frieza.

Either way, you're missing the entire point of my argument here.

A power level of 6 million could strike in AT LEAST one 3 millionth of a second. Goku, with a power level of around 6 million(in Kaioken X2), probably though about 9 million, completed a trip around a planet 3.5 times larger than Earth. There is no way to argue anything there, the feat happened.

Honestly, I expected you to say something like, "Power levels don't scale linearly that way", which is the BEST argument that you CAN make against this. Because they don't. However, they scale to the point where someone with a power level of a million over someone with a power level of a billion would be equal to a fight between someone with a power level of 5 and of 6. It's just strange, but they still scale OVER what they're measured as, making my calcs a LOWBALL.

Originally posted by juggerman
There is no proof Superman heard what The Specter said. In fact as he gets up he says he doesn't know what he even ran into. But again that has nothing to do with DB so why bring it up? Again if you want to debate Superman or his comic logic open a thread. This isn't the place

We can't "SEE" what's on the page???? We can only "SEE" what's on tv? Not a very solid stance you have there. We do in fact "SEE" what's shown on panel and everything I've said is shown. You are debating what we don't see and what you hope is the case

When have these characters been shown once to "speak at light speed" or any other speed faster than normal? Also for your case to hold up we would have to pretend the sound of their voices suddenly picked up speed too for it to work. Any proof of this at all or just more baseless speculation?

I posted the page and broke down what we clearly "SEE" and all you've done is give me "maybes" and "could bes" and "ifs" and "we don't knows". You really don't have a stance

What? LOL, you literally just FLIPPED your stance on this whole thing. You were the one saying they weren't light speed because of how long it took in the anime.

"When did I bring up the anime? You were the one using the time frame we SEE in the anime as a gauge to speculate on the time span. That's retarded, and hilarious.

Buu did circle the planet in less than a second. Much less, in fact. the only thing you're arguing here is the fact that they were speaking, which proves nothing as it holds no water unless you can prove that the characters were speaking at human speeds(which you can't). Either way though, you can't argue about PIS, so I'm dropping it. Toriyama has never done a good job at using science anyway. He made an anime were characters can blow up stars, fly, ride flying cars, and other junk like moving FTL. Anything in a series that goes FTL doesn't surprise me. Again, you can't use science to determine these things. It's a cartoon for god sake. GG"

I repeated my post from earlier, because you seem keen on repeating yourself.

Either way, you're the one saying them talking proves Buu =/= LS, so burden of proof lies on you pal. Either show that they were actually speaking as slow as people do, or accept that it's PIS that happens in EVERY series. 👆

It has nothing to do with the speed they use. Another simple piece of evidence is the fact that Piccolo spoke before Nappa's blast hit him to Gohan. Piccolo could shoot a tiny ki blast that reached the moon in less than a second, and Nappa shot a blast that he barely outran, and he could still talk before it landed. 👆

Originally posted by carver9
Agreed on the first part.

Exactly, you're catching on. You used that scan as evidence that Buu couldn't reach light speed. Nothing in your scan was shown of him even trying to reach his max speed, let alone half of it. We just see him flying to them boasting, that's it. Now if there was something said during that scene of him moving his max, then you'll have an argument, but nothing was said. Also, if he was going anywhere close to his tops, Vegeta nor Goku would have saw him at all due to the large speed difference between the two. So with that said, your post was irrelevant.

Ok

Here's the issue tho: Buu was clearly trying to reach them quickly. Maybe not "as fast as he possibly could" but he was still determined to get there quickly. So if a character that had a power billions less than Buu could ho LS easily, then Buu's top speed should be so far beyond LS that traveling at LS wouldn't even be Buu pushing himself past 1%.

Originally posted by carver9
Even if he was going half his speed or a fraction, Black hair Goku and Vegeta should not be able to see him, don't you agree. Remember, Frieza used 1% of his power and was still too fast for Piccolo and the other Z fighters to detect. Now compare the difference in power to the strongest Buu and Black hair Goku and Vegeta and you should see where I'm going with this.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What? LOL, you literally just FLIPPED your stance on this whole thing. You were the one saying they weren't light speed because of how long it took in the anime.

"When did I bring up the anime? You were the one using the time frame we SEE in the anime as a gauge to speculate on the time span. That's retarded, and hilarious.

Buu did circle the planet in less than a second. Much less, in fact. the only thing you're arguing here is the fact that they were speaking, which proves nothing as it holds no water unless you can prove that the characters were speaking at human speeds(which you can't). Either way though, you can't argue about PIS, so I'm dropping it. Toriyama has never done a good job at using science anyway. He made an anime were characters can blow up stars, fly, ride flying cars, and other junk like moving FTL. Anything in a series that goes FTL doesn't surprise me. Again, you can't use science to determine these things. It's a cartoon for god sake. GG"

I repeated my post from earlier, because you seem keen on repeating yourself.

Either way, you're the one saying them talking proves Buu =/= LS, so burden of proof lies on you pal. Either show that they were actually speaking as slow as people do, or accept that it's PIS that happens in EVERY series. 👆

It has nothing to do with the speed they use. Another simple piece of evidence is the fact that Piccolo spoke before Nappa's blast hit him to Gohan. Piccolo could shoot a tiny ki blast that reached the moon in less than a second, and Nappa shot a blast that he barely outran, and he could still talk before it landed. 👆

I never used the anime as a scale to judge anything here. I broke down page after page of the manga which thoroughly proves my stance. I said "you keep using the anime" and basically what you did was akin to a "no you" response. I said you used it since the only possible way you can have the stance of "Goku travelled the planet of Namek in the timeit took Frieza to throw a punch" it would have to come from the anime since nothing even close happened in the manga. But please quote me anywhere my stance was based on the anime. Cuz I can easily quote the time I said you were using it and I never once did here so please try harder

Your repeated post has been dismantled already but I do see one point I didn't comment on last time. You said it's a cartoon so clearly you are referring to the anime 😂

Actually the burden is on you since you are claiming they can speak at LS when that's never been shown. And a timeframe for Piccolo's blast is needed. But knowing you you'll pull some more nonsense out of your butt to try to cover the fact that you're wrong.

Look you seem willing to admit there was a lot of PIS on DB which is good since we agree there. But there is way more pointing to them not being LS than vice versa. Maybe you can at least admit that too

Much DBZ fans argue that Picollo Ki blast reach the Moon in few seconds, and Raditz was able to dodge his ki blasts. Even tough the Picollo Ki blast was not lightspeed, it was a very good speed feat.

What do you guys think about that ?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

It's okay there little guy. When you grow up a little Goku being weaker than you think he is won't matter that much.

So your argument is that Frieza COULD have cocked his arm back when Goku was almost there? I wonder who's guessing things here...

You, actually. I'm not assuming anything about what Freeza or Goku. I'm pointing out that your argument is founded on assumptions that you can't prove. 👆

Basically, that is not even an argument. Goku took off, and Frieza was already over Vegeta. If he had his arm cocked back by the time Goku got there, it means Goku STILL got there before Frieza could grab Vegeta and punch him. That is STILL THE SAME FEAT.

Sure, now can you prove exactly when Freeza cocked his arm back? 🙂

Because if you can't do that, then you can't quantify the feat.

Also, Goku was using kaioken the entire fight, as stated by King Kai. The only one assuming things here is you. The power levels are shown in the daizenshuu, Goku in base without kaioken was 3 million, and Frieza 1%(which it explicitly states is the power he used against Vegeta and friends), is 6 million. Goku appeared with a bright aura, something he typically only has when using a buff, or is at full power. King Kai stated Goku was using Kaioken from the beginning of his fight against Frieza.

How does this help your argument?

Goku is faster when using Kaioken, yet he still couldn't blitz Freeza. He also wasn't using Kaioken while racing toward Freeza, which is clear by the complete lack of an aura. So if indeed Freeza did start cocking his arm back as or before Goku left the ship, then he would have had to have been doing it much more slowly than he could.

How much more slowly? Don't know. Which is the entire point; we don't know, so the feat can't be quantified.

Or do you think Goku can fly thousands of kilometers in the time it takes Freeza to throw a punch?

Either way, you're missing the entire point of my argument here.

No, I'm afraid not. I understand perfectly. On the other hand, considering your frequently poor reading comprehension, it seems far more likely that you are missing the point of mine (my argument is that your argument sucks, by the way).

A power level of 6 million could strike in AT LEAST one 3 millionth of a second. Goku, with a power level of around 6 million(in Kaioken X2), probably though about 9 million, completed a trip around a planet 3.5 times larger than Earth. There is no way to argue anything there, the feat happened.

Prove that Freeza began cocking back his arm anywhere near the time Goku left the ship. 😉

No, it really didn't. You have the back of the English manga to support your case. That's about it.

The visuals in the manga and the dialogue contradict you multiple times. 👆

Your argument is literally that Goku is fast enough to travel around the planet in the time it takes a demonstrably faster character to throw a punch.

Your argument is literally worse than Hitler.

Honestly, I expected you to say something like, "Power levels don't scale linearly that way", which is the BEST argument that you CAN make against this. Because they don't. However, they scale to the point where someone with a power level of a million over someone with a power level of a billion would be equal to a fight between someone with a power level of 5 and of 6. It's just strange, but they still scale OVER what they're measured as, making my calcs a LOWBALL.

Your calc isn't a lowball my son. It's just wrong. 👆

Originally posted by juggerman
Ok

Here's the issue tho: Buu was clearly trying to reach them quickly. Maybe not "as fast as he possibly could" but he was still determined to get there quickly. So if a character that had a power billions less than Buu could ho LS easily, then Buu's top speed should be so far beyond LS that traveling at LS wouldn't even be Buu pushing himself past 1%.

Didn't look like he was trying to reach them quickly imo. If that was the case, he would've went his top speed to achieve this. Remember Gotenks was able to circle Earth in seconds several times (and yes, seconds because remember, after circling the globe, they took a nap. That's why the fusion was over with) and they are no where close to Buu speed. If he wanted to catch Goku and Vegeta off guard with raw speed, then he could've done it. Doesn't matter anyways since I think DBZ raw speed sucks (flight). It's always been there reflexes and quick burst of speed that is far more impressive (and what I consider far above light speed).

Example...Wonder Woman has light speed reaction but her flight sucks.

Originally posted by carver9
Didn't look like he was trying to reach them quickly imo. If that was the case, he would've went his top speed to achieve this. Remember Gotenks was able to circle Earth in seconds several times (and yes, seconds because remember, after circling the globe, they took a nap. That's why the fusion was over with) and they are no where close to Buu speed. If he wanted to catch Goku and Vegeta off guard with raw speed, then he could've done it.

Seriously man? Just look at the pages beforehand:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-6/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Here he looks pissed that Goku evaded him.

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-7/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Here he says "I won't stop chasing him". Not "I won't stop slowly following him" It's clear he was trying to quickly find him

Then we see him start to chase after Goku but here's where we really see something:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-9/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

Look at his ki/aura now. That's clearly indicative of a high speed. Maybe not his highest but it's clear it's meant to be fast for Buu since there is an abundance of ki around and behind him. Everything in that first frame shows us he is moving quickly. The second frame shows us this as well. I can also go back and show you other examples of characters that look similar when they are flying fast too if needed.

Also I never said he was trying to catch them off gaurd, only that he was chasing Goku and trying to reach him quickly. That much is pretty much proven within the pages themselves

Originally posted by carver9
Doesn't matter anyways since I think DBZ raw speed sucks (flight). It's always been there reflexes and quick burst of speed that is far more impressive (and what I consider far above light speed).

Example...Wonder Woman has light speed reaction but her flight sucks.

Well if you don't think they fly and travel at LS then I don't think we have much else to discuss about this. If you would like, please post some evidence that supports your opinion that they can react and/or fight at LS so we can discuss your actual stance.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Much DBZ fans argue that Picollo Ki blast reach the Moon in few seconds, and Raditz was able to dodge his ki blasts. Even tough the Picollo Ki blast was not lightspeed, it was a very good speed feat.

What do you guys think about that ?

I think that it's a high end outliner feat that can be summed up as PIS. The issue is tho people will take that PIS and act as if it is the norm and use it as a measuring stick. I.E. "since Piccolo can fire a blast at light speed than Frieza is over 100X light speed" and so on and so forth. But it doesn't make sense with all the points that show us these guys move much much slower than that. You basically have to put on blinders to everything else to see it that way.

Plus seeing as how their universe is nothing like ours at all, we can't just assume their moon is as far away as ours either but that's a whole different thing to discuss.

Also Roshi blew up the moon and it was never wished back iirc. Meaning Piccolo killed an imposter moon. Maybe the Death Star!!! 😱