Originally posted by Greatest I am
Care to expand on this?Regards
DL
Well, I find there to be a lot of parallels between the death and resurrection of Jesus and Osiris. Although, the story of Osiris is far more elaborate, and is a better story, overall.
The idea of a god dieing and being resurrected comes from Egypt mythology.
Originally posted by Greatest I am
I am a Gnostic Christian and thus a cut above Christians from a moral POV.
This is quickly slipping into egotism. You're aware that a person's morals are largely - perhaps entirely - dependent on the interpretation and application of their beliefs, not the beliefs themselves...right? A person's identified religion tells us nothing of their morality or lack thereof.
That you can't make this distinction is indicative of larger, darker prejudices that go beyond simply misinterpreting popular Christian beliefs. Because you've jumped from attacking the beliefs to attacking people, whose application of those beliefs are not uniform. You'd do well to examine peoples' beliefs, and their application, more closely. Once you do, it will be far more difficult to hurl such generalized accusations.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Well, I find there to be a lot of parallels between the death and resurrection of Jesus and Osiris. Although, the story of Osiris is far more elaborate, and is a better story, overall.The idea of a god dieing and being resurrected comes from Egypt mythology.
No argument. Jesus is associated with more than one Eastern tradition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1CWBKRWIg0&feature=related
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x84m5k_2007doc-zone-pagan-christ-1-of-3_news
Here is something you might consider and it and other anomalies may be why Joseph Campbell calls Jesus just another Hero of 1,000 Faces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLVpTQJqijU
Jesus may just be an archetypal good man that Christianity capitalized on.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Digiyea i honestly agree and this thread wasn't really a serious attempt at postulating that these patterns do matter. as for what is 'worth spending any thought on' i guess i just get off to the idea of god trolling me so it's worth speculating about for amusement even if it's not really happening. stuff like this doesn't actually give me pause though.
What Delph said on page 1 is my succinct answer to the OPs reasoning. For some elaboration, we're pattern-seeking individuals whose survival for literally thousands of years has depended on our ability to see patterns, often where there are none (see: research on false positives and how it affected survival chances in our hunter-gatherer stage). Now, extrapolate that tendency across a lifetime and literally every person in the world is going to experience, or perceive that they experience, a coincidence so unimaginably perfect that it MUST point to something larger than pure chance.Except that's just the law of large numbers added to our pattern-seeking brains. There are millions of potential combinations in a given day for us to perceive such significance. It works doubly so for those who DO see a higher purpose in the patterns, because they're more likely to actively look for them (i.e. "God, send me a sign"😉 and remember them.
Ush's page 1 reply also helps, because it covers the other part of this. It's the difference between what's possible and what's plausible, with the latter of which being the only one worth spending any thought or time on.
the only thing that really does is that existence in general is baffling to me and it seems like the way our universe works, intelligence is embedded into to the system. so i see a general direction in that.. whether you wanna ascribe agency or not. but that's probably another topic altogether. but i honestly don't mind this thread being derailed since i'm the one who made it and it was just a sort of amusing thought i was having one day after work.
Originally posted by red g jacks
yea i honestly agree and this thread wasn't really a serious attempt at postulating that these patterns do matter. as for what is 'worth spending any thought on' i guess i just get off to the idea of god trolling me so it's worth speculating about for amusement even if it's not really happening.
Sure. But what I said needs to be stated in many cases, because I can't tell you how many people I've met whose justification for the supernatural or divine comes down to a "perfect" coincidence like this.
And my response didn't even get into the deterministic rebuttal to such logic, which also invalidates the kind of divine intervention many people perceive in the patterns of life.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
No, no.Let them fight.
Bah, shut yer hole!
But yeah, I know. I leave the interpretive and fact-based arguments alone with him, because it's much too frustrating. But I hadn't seen such stereotyping from him about people before, so I felt the urge to call it out. Differing interpretations is fine, healthy even. Drawing elitist conclusions from them, less so.
Originally posted by Digi
This is quickly slipping into egotism. You're aware that a person's morals are largely - perhaps entirely - dependent on the interpretation and application of their beliefs, not the beliefs themselves...right? A person's identified religion tells us nothing of their morality or lack thereof.
I like to sustain the unusual hypothesis that beliefs are the consequence of the morality of our actions and not the other way around. It's sort of true (in a family of statements that are never fully true and are better left described by brain chemistry), but most of all, it's less self-centered and I think more easy to communicate.
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Read and understand hat dead men do not walk and a God who condemns mankind then turns about and dies to reverse his own judgement is stupid beyond words.You may think that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is a good moral tenet but that would be due to your religion corrupting our morals.
Regards
DL
i don't know where you came up with that stuff, man. can you please cite a verse that says God condemned mankind? if you really read the Bible, you will know that what you're saying is not true.
Originally posted by Greatest I am
I criticize the Jesus you follow. I rather like the Jesus I follow.His morals are quite good compared to the one you follow or will try to ride as your scapegoat into heaven.
Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
the Jesus i follow is the one written in the Bible... where's yours? your own interpretation?
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?
Regards
DL
the Jesus i follow does not "demand" anyone to do something. He has set up laws, and it's up to you, He only gives recommendations...
Originally posted by dyajeep
i don't know where you came up with that stuff, man. can you please cite a verse that says God condemned mankind? if you really read the Bible, you will know that what you're saying is not true.the Jesus i follow is the one written in the Bible... where's yours? your own interpretation?
the Jesus i follow does not "demand" anyone to do something. He has set up laws, and it's up to you, He only gives recommendations...
Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.
“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”
This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.
During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.
I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.
The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.
I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.
I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.
I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.
My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.
Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians, --- as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.
This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y
Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.
Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?
-------------
"i don't know where you came up with that stuff, man. can you please cite a verse that says God condemned mankind?"
If we are not condemned, then we would not need a savior nor would Jesus save to die to saves us. Right?
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Greatest I am
If we are not condemned, then we would not need a savior nor would Jesus save to die to saves us. Right?Regards
DL
so you cannot provide any Bible verse then? i wasn't surprised... your basis is only your twisted interpretation...
do you know the meaning of "condemned"?
in the Bible, if you are condemned, then you have no salvation... there's no need for Jesus to save you because you are already judged to go to hell... just like satan:
"Of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged."
John 16:11
satan is condemned, he'll definitely go to hell:
"Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;"
Matthew 25:41
but the people? nope... no one is predestined to go to hell... that's the reason why there is a Savior, because we can still be saved... we are not damned to hell...
Originally posted by dyajeep
so you cannot provide any Bible verse then? i wasn't surprised... your basis is only your twisted interpretation...do you know the meaning of "condemned"?
in the Bible, if you are condemned, then you have no salvation... there's no need for Jesus to save you because you are already judged to go to hell... just like satan:
"Of judgment, because the prince of this world [b]hath been judged
."
John 16:11satan is condemned, he'll definitely go to hell:
"Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;"
Matthew 25:41but the people? nope... no one is predestined to go to hell... that's the reason why there is a Savior, because we can still be saved... we are not damned to hell... [/B]
You are without your savior which is just the hook that some church has in you.
Only a really stupid God would condemn you and then turn around and have to die to reverse that condemnation and become your savior.
Only a foo will disagree.
You may not want to believe me but this Bishop might talk some sense into your senseless and immoral thinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1RuyPAIwK8
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Greatest I am
yadda yadda yaddaGood. Jesus died for nothing as man never needed a savior.
That is why only fools will believe in substitutionary atonement.
Regards
DL
dude, if it's not written that mankind is not condemned by God, then mankind is not condemned... you yourself cannot provide a verse... if you have one, you'd probably waving it like a flag right now...
but you have no sufficient evidence... what you're doing is just "accusing", dude...
Originally posted by SpawningpoolThere was some sort of Monty Python-esque film once. I can't recall its name, something like Erik the Viking perhaps. It had some of the MP team in it. I only laughed once during the whole film, however.
What if god is a troll and that's why he doesn't talk to us.
I bring it up because in the end the gods turn out to be little kids. Which explains why everything's so messed up!
Originally posted by dyajeep
dude, if it's not written that mankind is not condemned by God, then mankind is not condemned... you yourself cannot provide a verse... if you have one, you'd probably waving it like a flag right now...but you have no sufficient evidence... what you're doing is just "accusing", dude...
If so, what was God choosing Jesus for here?
Let me help you. It was to die. Now tell us why Jesus was being sacrificed.
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
You might want to look up the apostles creed.
Regards
DL