Jedi vs Sith

Originally posted by Star428
I don't agree with your opinion that Dooku had as good a shot as defeating Yoda as Mace did defeating Sidious because it sure looked to me like Mace actually beat Sidious whereas Dooku only fought Yoda briefly and then ran away just as Yoda was getting warmed-up. If that fight had gone on much longer Yoda would've shown that he was clearly >>>>> Dooku. Dooku tucked tail and ran away though because he knew he would eventually lose. Technically speaking, fleeing the way he did counts as a loss anyway, imo.

Let us not forget that a minutely amped Dooku actually managed to wound Yoda in Dark Rendezvous, and that Sidious had spent much of his power mowing down three other masters asap style very early in their duel.

Originally posted by Star428
Also, Anakin clearly bested him by himself in RotS.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
None of this is true though.... Lucas straight out tells us that Anakin doesn't have as strong a connection as he did before. He literally lost some of his concentration when his body parts were cut off. Lucas straight out says this and that he's only 80% of the emperor's power after happens. This is the no. 1 source of canon telling us Anakin isn't as connected nor is near his physical prime. He's slow and plodding. Yes, Vader had years of practice to improve his force powers.. He's better there. However, I'd say Anakin was the more Formidable foe.

Sidious pondered that a duel with Vader would be challenging for him in The Rise of Darth Vader; and once Vader had adjusted to his transformation he was described as incredibly fast and lethal. Perhaps not very maneuverable or agile, but he'd gained physical power and durability since his transformation. A knight is less maneuverable than a Samurai, yet Knights are understood to have an advantage over the Samurai due to superior armor.

As for potential, we've been through that, Sidious also believed that Vader still had the power to overthrow him. Vader's issue with achieving his potential in all guises of the Force was in that he couldn't fully embrace the Force, moreover, the Dark Side of the Force.

like i said, its right there in the wookieepedia, Dooku was equal with Windu at the very least, Anakin beat Dooku when he tapped into the dark side, once he was christened Vader he had dark side in spades, he would've cut Windu down for sure.

As for cyborg Vader, its been stated in many sources that his Force potential was cut in half, so he may have become a better swordsman but his Force abilities weren't up to snuff to take on his human self, much less the Emperor

Vader may've lost a lot of midichlorians when he was chopped-up but by the time of RotJ he had greatly increased his knowledge of the force and was still much more powerful overall, imo, than he was when he was Anakin and/or pre-machine Vader because the Anakin in RotS had not yet reached his full potential. Also, in RotJ, he was much more wise and not so impulsive like he was when he was just a boy in RotS and wouldn't make such a stupid move like what he did against Obi-Wan which caused him to lose. People seem to overlook for some reason the fact that how wise a person is combat-wise plays a huge part in how formidable that person is. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan because of his stupidity and that's the same reason that Maul lost to Obi-Wan as well. Everybody keeps going on and on about "power" and/or "skill" as if they are the only things that indicates how formidable a person is. LOL. They don't seem to realize how much battle wits are just as important as the other two. I'm sorry but you guys can think whatever you like but Vader>Anakin in overall formidability, imo, and that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

Originally posted by Oneness
Let us not forget that a minutely amped Dooku actually managed to wound Yoda in Dark Rendezvous, and that Sidious had spent much of his power mowing down three other masters asap style very early in their duel.

Dooku hardly stood toe to toe with physically dominating opponents such as Oppress, he kept some range, and did melee and conserved quite a bit of energy. His tactics were more seasoned than Kenobi's and more so Anakin's, and his mastery of the Force was still greater, though his strength perhaps had been momentarily surpassed by Anakin. There's no reason Dooku wouldn't have been able to pull a win like Kenobi did, if he'd known what Anakin was about to hit him with. Arrogance got the better of the Count in that duel I'm afraid.

Sidious pondered that a duel with Vader would be challenging for him in The Rise of Darth Vader; and once Vader had adjusted to his transformation he was described as incredibly fast and lethal. Perhaps not very maneuverable or agile, but he'd gained physical power and durability since his transformation. A knight is less maneuverable than a Samurai, yet Knights are understood to have an advantage over the Samurai due to superior armor.

As for potential, we've been through that, Sidious also believed that Vader still had the power to overthrow him. Vader's issue with achieving his potential in all guises of the Force was in that he couldn't fully embrace the Force, moreover, the Dark Side of the Force.

Look Lucas confirms that Anakin/Vader can only ever reach 80% of Sidious power. He lost so much Mids that he was never the same again. Obviously he had a lot to begin with so he's still powerful but he was never the same again and that's the point. No way do I place Vader above Anakin besides force power and knowledge. Your opinion on how stronger or powerful he is doesn't matter... we have the creator saying he wasn't the same or as powerful.

Originally posted by Star428
Vader may've lost a lot of midichlorians when he was chopped-up but by the time of RotJ he had greatly increased his knowledge of the force and was still much more powerful overall, imo, than he was when he was Anakin and/or pre-machine Vader because the Anakin in RotS had not yet reached his full potential. Also, in RotJ, he was much more wise and not so impulsive like he was when he was just a boy in RotS and wouldn't make such a stupid move like what he did against Obi-Wan which caused him to lose. People seem to overlook for some reason the fact that how wise a person is combat-wise plays a huge part in how formidable that person is. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan because of his stupidity and that's the same reason that Maul lost to Obi-Wan as well. Everybody keeps going on and on about "power" and/or "skill" as if they are the only things that indicates how formidable a person is. LOL. They don't seem to realize how much battle wits are just as important as the other two. I'm sorry but you guys can think whatever you like but Vader>Anakin in overall formidability, imo, and that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

That's all fine and dandy but he wasn't as powerful and it's really that simple. He had just mastered the force more... maybe more cool headed or whatever. Great. But his force potential and connection was limited after he was cut in half.. along with agility speed reflexes etc etc.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That's all fine and dandy but he wasn't as powerful and it's really that simple. He had just mastered the force more... maybe more cool headed or whatever. Great. But his force potential and connection was limited after he was cut in half.. along with agility speed reflexes etc etc.

The only thing holding him back from surpassing the Emperor as a cyborg was his inability to embrace the dark side.

He lost no power when he became a cyborg, and he still had more midi-chlorians than Yoda and was clearly sitting on a vast untapped potential still.

As I said before, he possessed more midi-chlorians per cell. The human body has trillions of cells. Have a thousand more per, yields exponential results.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Look Lucas confirms that Anakin/Vader can only ever reach 80% of Sidious power. He lost so much Mids that he was never the same again. Obviously he had a lot to begin with so he's still powerful but he was never the same again and that's the point. No way do I place Vader above Anakin besides force power and knowledge. Your opinion on how stronger or powerful he is doesn't matter... we have the creator saying he wasn't the same or as powerful.

Not, "He can't be more than 80% of the Emperor".

In a canon novel called RoDV it is stated by the Emperor himself that Vader could still surpass him. That's more than the Emperor could say for Starkiller, even, who could only ever be his "equal".

Originally posted by relentless1
like i said, its right there in the wookieepedia, Dooku was equal with Windu at the very least, Anakin beat Dooku when he tapped into the dark side, once he was christened Vader he had dark side in spades, he would've cut Windu down for sure.

As for cyborg Vader, its been stated in many sources that his Force potential was cut in half, so he may have become a better swordsman but his Force abilities weren't up to snuff to take on his human self, much less the Emperor

Actually the quote was from the Rise of Darth Vader, it was the "Like a painter gone blind" quote. Never said anything about losing half of his potential.

Okay so you're just going to put your fingers in your ears and go no no no I'm not listening So there is really no point in discussing anything further. YOUR OPINOIN on the matter doesn't matter one bit. In fact, it's the lowest form of canon. On the contrary the highest form of canon says Vader isn't as powerful and can now only reach 80% of the emperor's power. Doesn't get more cut and dry than that. Your noticing him improving his force powers doesn't change anything one bit. I even said his increased his force powers over time. That's what happens as you get more practice and seasoned. That doesn't mean he had the same potential or was as powerful. You can choose to believe what you want though, no skin off my back.

Originally posted by Oneness
No, Lucas said "He's about 80% of the Emperor".

Not, "He can't be more than 80% of the Emperor".

In a canon novel called RoDV it is stated by the Emperor himself that Vader could still surpass him. That's more than the Emperor could say for Starkiller, even, who could only ever be his "equal".

You can believe what you want... the fact of the matter is Lucas CONFIRMS Vader isn't what he could've become and CONFIRMS vader LOST.. we know what lost means right? LOST valuable Mids when he was cut in half. No amount of not uh or no I don't want listen will change that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That doesn't mean he had the same potential or was as powerful.