Cuba

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Poor people buy shit they can't afford all the time. It's the nature of consumerism, really. I live with two working class people (one of them is Cuban) who barely make enough to pay their bills and they're constantly buying shit off Amazon that they don't need.

I'm sure there were people saying this about the Chinese when we first started investing in them. As investment grows, the Cuban economy will grow, wages will rise, and consumption will increase. For a Conservative, you really don't seem to understand how capitalism works.

Bro, $22 a month salary no matter what will never buy you car.

http://www.havanatimes.org/?p=97506

This is a completely different monster then China. China already had a capitalist economy up and running in Hong Kong.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
Not even some of that sweet Alabama kush?

Can you buy that from Cuba?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Can you buy that from Cuba?

I'm sure you can, but they wouldn't call it by that name.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Bro, $22 a month salary no matter what will never buy you car.

http://www.havanatimes.org/?p=97506

This is a completely different monster then China. China already had a capitalist economy up and running in Hong Kong.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
China didn't own Hong Kong until the late 90s, after they'd begun their market revolution. Get your facts straight.

It does not matter. The fact is, that it was already a working system in the area that was easily able to reproduce. Cuba has no "Hong Kong." And the Cuban government is completely different in how they handle and treat their people. Its basically North Korea.

Also the other 190 countries that do business with Cuba around the world has not improved the quality of life for the Cuban's one bit. Cuba did not have to make one concession towards better quality of life for their people with this "obama new deal."

m-muh capitalism

m-m-muh democracy

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
It does not matter. The fact is, that it was already a working system in the area that was easily able to reproduce. Cuba has no "Hong Kong." And the Cuban government is completely different in how they handle and treat their people. Its basically North Korea.

Investment is what drives economic growth more than entrepreneurship. Once China was opened to investment it was able to build up its industry and make use of its resources and labor force.

Cuba doesn't need a Hong Kong. But technically it has one. It's called Miami, bruh. There's a huge, relatively wealthy Cuban exile community who could help jumpstart the Cuban economy.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Also the other 190 countries that do business with Cuba around the world has not improved the quality of life for the Cuban's one bit. Cuba did not have to make one concession towards better quality of life for their people with this "obama new deal."

Before Castro, America was easily Cuba's most important trade partner.

Trade and political relations improved during the late 1800s. By the 1880s the US consumed most of Cuba’s exported sugar, tobacco, cacao, coffee, tropical fruits, and nuts; US exports in return were cereals, meats, manufactured goods, condensed milk, vegetable oils, cheese, and fuel as documented by Wakefield (1937). Cuba also exported iron ore. The US imported all of Cuba’s
copper production, about a quarter of US copper imports. The US and Spain operated an effective reciprocal trade agreement regarding Cuba.

In the 1930s the US accounted for about one third of Cuban import spending and three quarters of Cuban export revenue as documented by Messina, Brown, Ross, and Alvarez (2007). The decade of 1940s was a period of political stability. During the 1950s Batista became an unpopular dictator supported by the US leading to the rise of Castro in 1959. The Library of Congress (2006) summarizes this transitional period. Castro’s platform of “revolutionary law” included a mandatory labor share of 30% of profits as well as nationalization of telephone and electric utilities as documented by Johnson (1965). US direct investment in Cuba did not immediately slow, with $355 million recorded in 1959. The book value of US capital in Cuba was over three times that for all the rest of Latin America.

Source: http://www.auburn.edu/~thomph1/cubahistory.pdf

This trade agreement empowers the Cuban regime. Nothing more and nothing less. Everything will remain the same. Obama got zero concessions from Castro's regime.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
This trade agreement empowers the Cuban regime. Nothing more and nothing less. Everything will remain the same. Obama got zero concessions from Castro's regime.

Also you're talking about a "trade agreement" but there's no such thing yet.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
The embargo empowers the regime. America has literally zero leverage on Cuba as it is. If we begin to trade with them, we'll be able to better influence them.

Also you're talking about a "trade agreement" but there's no such thing yet.

Yet, but it's going to be set up.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Yet, but it's going to be set up.

So you're just assuming that America will enter into a trade pact without ANY stipulations?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
You said that the Castro regime didn't make any concessions in return for a trade agreement that hasn't happened yet.

So you're just assuming that America will enter into a trade pact without ANY stipulations?

The other 190 countries have not made them give any concessions. You think Obama can make it happen?

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
The other 190 countries have not made them give any concessions. You think Obama can make it happen?

The only countries that Cuba has real trade relations with are other autocracies and socialist states.

While the EU has about 20% of Cuba's foreign trade, this is dispersed between twenty seven nations, and Cuba is so far away that it isn't really seen as a diplomatic priority for the EU, which tends to be only concerned with its immediate neighbors like Ukraine, Syria, and the North African countries.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
The other countries either hold similar political positions to Cuba, or haven't really made the large scale investments that would give them real bargaining power over Cuba.

The only countries that Cuba has real trade relations with are other autocracies and socialist states.

That would actually be incorrect.

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/profile/country/cub/

Notice that China is their top customer.

Also understand that Cuba has been supported up till now by oil and money from Venezuela.

Their economy isn't dependent on Europe. The EU tried sanctioning them in the 00s, and after five years or so they gave up because they realized that Cuba was 100% prepared to go without EU aid if it meant avoiding having to change their government.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Notice that China is their top customer.

Also understand that Cuba has been supported up till now by oil and money from Venezuela.

Their economy isn't dependent on Europe. The EU tried sanctioning them in the 00s, and after five years or so they gave up because they realized that Cuba was 100% prepared to go without EU aid if it meant avoiding having to change their government.

How can Obama change their mind, his foreign policy skills are probably the worst in existence.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
How can Obama change their mind, his foreign policy skills are probably the worst in existence.

In the last few years he's

-Convinced Turkey and Israel to attempt rapproachment (it failed, but only because both countries are idiotic)
-Brought Iran to the negotiating table
-Convinced Cuba to agree to a prisoner swap which has led to this current thaw
-Brought China to agree to a joint pledge at reducing CO2 emissions
-Managed to retain mostly good relations with the EU despite the NSA spying allegations

These are all incredibly difficult, nigh-impossible situations for any president.

He isn't some kind of genius with foreign policy, and he's often times weaker and more reactive than I'd like him to be, but you're not being fair at all to him or to his accomplishments.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Let's examine this, briefly.

In the last few years he's

-Convinced Turkey and Israel to attempt rapproachment (it failed, but only because both countries are idiotic)
-Brought Iran to the negotiating table
-Convinced Cuba to agree to a prisoner swap which has led to this current thaw
-Brought China to agree to a joint pledge at reducing CO2 emissions
-Managed to retain mostly good relations with the EU despite the NSA spying allegations

These are all incredibly difficult, nigh-impossible situations for any president.

He isn't some kind of genius with foreign policy, and he's often times weaker and more reactive than I'd like him to be, but you're not being fair at all to him or to his accomplishments.

Did you forget about Bengazi and that mess he pulled?

Also the above things you mentioned,
1st failed so does not count.
2nd Iran is not negotiating anything
The prisoner swap was good.
China has not done anything about reducing them.
We have a good relationship with the EU because its a must.

Originally posted by Lestov16
So you are upset that Obama is being pragmatic?

Because the Cubans, on the other hand, will see a river of US dollars headed their way, all of which will be vacuumed up by the Communist Party as it's illegal for Cubans to do business in US dollars. The Cuban peso, of course, is worth less than toilet paper.