Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because being in favor of TOR would not also be bias. Every opinion is bias. That's why it's called an opinion.
Being in favor of TOR is not the case here. It is possible to have learned opinions based on facts.
Based on?Again, based on what? Revan is far beyond the HoT.
Like I said, its hard to place the protags. Defeating a weakened Emperor and resisting his attacks along with resisting Sel Makor is above Anakin's capabilities imo. HoT's journey was the most challenging one in the game and he came through every obstacle which puts him above the other protags in my eyes and being superior to the likes of Nox is quite impressive.
Because what's prevent Caedus from picking off the weaker ones before focusing on the others?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Presumably the stronger one's protecting them.
Originally posted by Stigma
Caedus > Revan > HoT IMHO
Yeah but neither one of them is vastly superior to the other.
Originally posted by Sinious
Being in favor of TOR is not the case here. It is possible to have learned opinions based on facts.
Like I said, its hard to place the protags. Defeating a weakened Emperor and resisting his attacks along with resisting Sel Makor is above Anakin's capabilities imo.
HoT's journey was the most challenging one in the game and he came through every obstacle which puts him above the other protags in my eyes and being superior to the likes of Nox is quite impressive.
And the HoT isn't powerful enough to protect either of the other 3. Not long enough. Braga has endurance and nothing else going for him that makes him comparable to Caedus.
Yeah but neither one of them is vastly superior to the other.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure you've completely failed so far in establishing really any of that in this thread. Caedus' speed feats are not magnitudes better than the Hero's, Caedus' strength feats are (I believe) rather non-existant, I highly doubt that Caedus is more durable than the Hero who wears heavy battle armor and certainly possesses some of the finest armor by the latest pe.
They were already posted and you ignore them because of the fact you want HoT to a level he isn't at. Also lmao @ being less durable than Caedus, when has the Hero fought while missing an arm, fought while having his kidney pierced, fought while having his head seared by a lightsaber blade, blown away a powerful force user while shot by a blaster bolt? Never?, ok I thought so.
by the latest period in TOR, in terms of skill I'm not seeing anything greater than the Hero and you've posted
Beating Mara Jade, beating Kyle Katarn, fighting evenly with Jaina Solo while dismembered, fighting evenly with Luke Skywalker, fighting 3 Jedi knights with casual ease, are superior feats to Hero beating no namers.
you've posted no feats suggesting a vast gulf in terms of power than the Hero who has resisted the attacks of Emperor Vitiate and Sel Makor.
I've never seen Hero move 40 meter ships, shatter beskar, effortlessly move B wings, blast away Mara Jade while blowing away the rubble of two tunnels, absorb turbo laser fire, collapse a metal ceiling on top of Luke, send powerful force users like Mara Jade or Saba Sebatyne flying, or smash Luke with pieces of the embrace of pain.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's not. Nothing's stopping Anakin from defeating a weakened Vitiate or resisting an entity everyone the HoT brings with them can resist.
Anakin couldn't beat the weakened Vitiate. Not in the Dark Temple. Also Sel Makor doesn't try anything with the HoT's companion's or anyone else, so they didn't resist him.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Caedus being above Revan buts him far about the HoT.
Not necessarily. I go Revan>Malgus>Vader but I don't say there's a large margin between Revan and Vader.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And the fact that they don't match yours doesn't make it so biased it's incorrect.It's not. Nothing's stopping Anakin from defeating a weakened Vitiate or resisting an entity everyone the HoT brings with them can resist.
Which really doesn't have anything to do with the point of being bellow Revan. Nox is also bellow Revan. I don't care about the journey if it doesn't give feats that compare.
And the HoT isn't powerful enough to protect either of the other 3. Not long enough. Braga has endurance and nothing else going for him that makes him comparable to Caedus.
Caedus being above Revan buts him far about the HoT.
I agree with everything Neph said regarding your last post, so I'll respond to the ones he skipped.
You don't have to agree with me but TOR is obviously one of the most competitive eras in the mythos and if someone comes up and says being the strongest of such an era isnt remotely impressive cause they don't take TOR seriously, they won't be taken seriously as well.
Nox nevertheless would be a great challenge for Anakin and we were comparing HoT to Anakin so it matters if HoT has better achievements in the game compared to other protags.
The other 3 aren't fodder jedi. They don't need too much protection. As long as HoT tanks the direct attacks of Caedus, they can surround him and if Caedus decides to attack the weaker jedi, HoT can simply charge at him.
Caedus is one of the strongest force users in the mythos but he isnt 3 jedi masters ahead of HoT.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure you've completely failed so far in establishing really any of that in this thread. Caedus' speed feats are not magnitudes better than the Hero's, Caedus' strength feats are (I believe) rather non-existant, I highly doubt that Caedus is more durable than the Hero who wears heavy battle armor and certainly possesses some of the finest armor by the latest period in TOR, in terms of skill I'm not seeing anything greater than the Hero and you've posted no feats suggesting a vast gulf in terms of power than the Hero who has resisted the attacks of Emperor Vitiate and Sel Makor.
Moving fast enough to create rays of light with his lightsaber that lit up an entire section of the Anakin Solo simultaneously is far faster than anything the Hero of Tython has done. The evidence is all over the thread you simply refuse to acknowledge said feats.
Caedus' strength feats are non-existent? good lord read the novels, he has smashed through Mandalorian iron before on more than one occasion.
Durable physically, the Hero cannot tank lightsabers through the gut, losing an arm or better yet survive his body overloading with energy.
Right let's all assume Hero of Tython can duel with the likes of Luke Skywalker whom wrecked DE Sidious in a pure duel decades before Caedus was gaining an advantage on Luke and pressing it, injuring him severely. #TORLogic
Why is it everyone assumes Hero is a Mace Windu or better in dueling skill? he's at the very best a Kenobi and that is generous.
Because the Hero of Tython has never faced any of the techniques that Caedus can abuse in this contest. Maybe he will sever them from the Force, he's done so to Ben repeatedly. Maybe he'll send an electrical charge through their spinal cords and paralyse them long enough to end it. Maybe he'll summon illusions to plague their minds, illusions far more complex than Vitiate's are.
I'm just scraping the tip of the iceberg here concerning Caedus, what is his opponents going to do? subdue him with the Force? good luck with that. Out-duel him? Caedus is demonstratively on par with Luke and Darth Sidious.
Not a single one of these are good enough for taking on a combatant with the pure skill, raw power and esoteric techniques that Caedus has to dish out.
On the other hand you have failed to provide skill feats that place the Hero anywhere near the likes of Kenobi, Windu or Yoda nevermind Luke or Sidious.
I have played through Jedi Knight at least six times and the only feat of that playthrough that gives him lee-way is tanking a weakened Voice of the Emperor's FLS attacks. Nothing else comes close.
@ Ancient, good job all around.
In particular:
Originally posted by AncientPower
Why is it everyone assumes Hero is a Mace Windu or better in dueling skill? he's at the very best a Kenobi and that is generous.
In all honesty, I don't see HoT beating Kenobi in a sabers fight.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm just scraping the tip of the iceberg here concerning Caedus, what is his opponents going to do? subdue him with the Force? good luck with that. Out-duel him? Caedus is demonstratively on par with Luke and Darth Sidious.
and...
Originally posted by AncientPower
#TORLogic
Originally posted by AncientPower
Moving fast enough to create rays of light with his lightsaber that lit up an entire section of the Anakin Solo simultaneously is far faster than anything the Hero of Tython has done. The evidence is all over the thread you simply refuse to acknowledge said feats.
I don't see how that's necessarily faster than blitzing Sith Warriors, or at least far faster. Also I don't think that's actually a speed feat? Why would going faster make your lightsaber light places up?
Originally posted by AncientPower
Caedus' strength feats are non-existent? good lord read the novels, he has smashed through Mandalorian iron before on more than one occasion.
Shatterpoint.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Durable physically, the Hero cannot tank lightsabers through the gut, losing an arm or better yet survive his body overloading with energy.
The definition of durability is to resist wear and tear, not merely survive it. Caedus gets regularly shredded, he can just withstand injuries. The Hero on the other hand is certainly the more durable of the two. Put in the same positions it's likely that her armor would have prevented those injuries. We know that TOR era armor can repel lightsaber strikes, weapons fire and explosives.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Right let's all assume Hero of Tython can duel with the likes of Luke Skywalker whom wrecked DE Sidious in a pure duel decades before Caedus was gaining an advantage on Luke and pressing it, injuring him severely. #TORLogic
Lumiya can also duel with Luke, as can many others as well. Jacen also admits that he's have trouble overcoming Saba in a fight and displayed troubel dealing with Mara and Jaina. I see no reason to think that the Hero could at least duel with Luke and Caedus, even if she might not win.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Why is it everyone assumes Hero is a Mace Windu or better in dueling skill? he's at the very best a Kenobi and that is generous.
Because she's the best duelist in the TOR era? Stated to have legendary prowess and unrivaled reflexes? Defeated Scourge and many other premier duelists of the age. Personally I wouldn't say that Caedus is more skilled than Windu or Kenobi either. His fight with Luke was barely a lightsaber fight and both relied far more on punches, elbows and kicks as well as the environment than their blades. Luke also wasn't thinking clearly and seemed to kind of want to get hurt, plus he was still recovering from other injuries.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Because the Hero of Tython has never faced any of the techniques that Caedus can abuse in this contest. Maybe he will sever them from the Force, he's done so to Ben repeatedly. Maybe he'll send an electrical charge through their spinal cords and paralyse them long enough to end it. Maybe he'll summon illusions to plague their minds, illusions far more complex than Vitiate's are.
Caedus never used sever force on anyone in combat and only against Ben, a padawan. It's foolish to think he could do so against seasoned Jedi Masters. Who comes from an order reborn from the Exile, a Jedi with extensive training and experience in force severing. Also it's very unlikely that Caedus could do that thing with the lightning. All the Jedi here are wearing battle armor that Caedus' lightning isn't powerful enough to punch through. And no way is Caedus affecting anyone's mind with the Hero of Tython around. Also feats for Jacen's illusions? That's a huge claim to make. Can you back it up?
Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm just scraping the tip of the iceberg here concerning Caedus, what is his opponents going to do? subdue him with the Force? good luck with that. Out-duel him? Caedus is demonstratively on par with Luke and Darth Sidious.
I'm thinking a combination of those two. With Caedus repeatedly getting his attacks blocked and swamped by Jedi until he's overwhelmed.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Not a single one of these are good enough for taking on a combatant with the pure skill, raw power and esoteric techniques that Caedus has to dish out.
It's a good thing it's 4 on 1 then, huh?
Originally posted by AncientPower
On the other hand you have failed to provide skill feats that place the Hero anywhere near the likes of Kenobi, Windu or Yoda nevermind Luke or Sidious.
Well Caedus isn't as skilled as Luke and Sidious either so ho hum. His duel with Luke displayed extraordinarily little skill on either side. It wasn't a standard lightsaber duel, but a brawl in the dark in a cramped environment with many different factors coming to play.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I have played through Jedi Knight at least six times and the only feat of that playthrough that gives him lee-way is tanking a weakened Voice of the Emperor's FLS attacks. Nothing else comes close.
Jesus, why would you play it that much? It took me dozens of hours to get through that campaign, what are you masochistic?
Originally posted by Nephthys
His duel with Luke displayed extraordinarily little skill on either side. It wasn't a standard lightsaber duel, but a brawl in the dark in a cramped environment with many different factors coming to play.
This is true. Still, it was essentially a bloodlusted Luke who was going for the kill, sank a few centimeters of his saber into Jacen's kidney before the fight began, and then he still kept up.
Luke beat his ass pretty good, though.
Look up 'simultaneously', lighting up an entire section of the Anakin Solo a 1600 meter Star Destroyer is a huge after-image feat. We could also take a look at him formimg an ever present fan of light with his saber.
It wasn't shatterpoint.
Durability is an umbrella term, Caedus can take severe immolation and still be brutal.
Lumiya could fight an early Luke when she had the advantage of her weapon. Saba is horribly under-rated considering her own extreme power in the Force so that really isn't much of anything. Mara could never take on Caedus in a proper one-on-one fight, that was made abudantly clear, she could only batman him to death.
Scourge doesn't come close to the likes of Kenobi, the greatest Soresu practitioner ever, in lightsaber skill. Whereas Caedus has demonstrated absolute dominance in actual dueling and speed in dueling over a major list of opponents, including Jaina, Katarn and more.
Oh and that is off by quite a bit, Luke and Caedus for quite a considerable amount of time before it devolved into a senseless brawl. Also, Luke did not want to get injured, on the contrary he was completely on the defensive and was trying to protect his son.
Ben was far from just a Padawan at that point, he was being groomed as an apprentice and Caedus displayed full mastery of the technique, not just able to sever him repeatedly but restore that connection at will. He has also displayed the mastery required to perform the same on himself. It is definitely within his repertoire.
What? He doesn't attack them with Force Lightning he can summon electrical surges in his opponents that paralyse their spinal cords, which would at the very least take the HoT's allies out, but I'm just yet again being generous.
Too bad none of those Jedi have actual feats on a tier close to Caedus.
When three of them are essentially irrelevant then that is a moot point.
Except he is, you've overblown the martial aspect of that fight considerably. You've also managed to forget to note how impressive it is that Caedus can take on his uncle in a fist fight considering Luke has the best augmentatiom feats in the lore. But that's okay.
Caedus is confirmed to be a superior duelist than Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn and Jaina. Considering that Mara Jade in her youth was taking on Vader without getting steamrolled decades before her prime is an enormous sign of skill. She has been repeatedly stated to have some of the best combat skills in the New Jedi Order, yet head on she would lose to Caedus.
Kyle Katarn is a battlemaster with a considerable list of skill feats and has proven he is one of the greatest combatants in the Order. His talents as a lightsaber instructor infact stated to be as good a job as Luke could have done.
Kyp Durron wasn't afraid to acknowledge Katarn either.
Jaina Solo of course is not long after killing Caedus repeatedly suggested throughout Fate of the Jedi to be almost peerless with her lightsaber and infact is compared to Luke more than once. Noting of course that Fate of the Jedi is not as far ahead of Legacy of the Force as some believe.
I have done each class bar Smuggler at least 5 times each and have a detailed memory of all the game's events. I recently finished all 3.0 content for all classes and Nox to my delight is being blatantly set-up for most powerful protag.
The definition of durability is to resist wear and tear, not merely survive it. Caedus gets regularly shredded, he can just withstand injuries. The Hero on the other hand is certainly the more durable of the two. Put in the same positions it's likely that her armor would have prevented those injuries. We know that TOR era armor can repel lightsaber strikes, weapons fire and explosives.
Wtf? How are you even making an argument? Caedus lived through, withstood, and even fought harder in spite of those injuries? How is that not the definition of durable, and where and when has Hero's armor enabled him to withstand debilitating lightsaber blows? Having armor simply wouldn't make you more durable, lol.
Lumiya can also duel with Luke, as can many others as well. Jacen also admits that he's have trouble overcoming Saba in a fight and displayed troubel dealing with Mara and Jaina. I see no reason to think that the Hero could at least duel with Luke and Caedus, even if she might not win.
Lumiya has consistently been able to fight evenly with Luke 3-4 times, that in no way contradicts Jacen's showing. All he said was he'd have difficulty beating Saba, and his own musing is contradicted by the fact he sent Saba flying into an explosion by TKing her and then engaging Luke.
It's a good thing it's 4 on 1 then, huh?
Braga and Darach are useless, and the other two he can stomp without much difficulty.
Well Caedus isn't as skilled as Luke and Sidious either so ho hum. His duel with Luke displayed extraordinarily little skill on either side. It wasn't a standard lightsaber duel, but a brawl in the dark in a cramped environment with many different factors coming to play.
facepalm
Hero has no feats to compare, and lmao at your mere opinion he isn't as skilled as either. Last time I checked Hero has only beaten fodder Sith and featless characters, unless you have someone he has beaten in a lightsaber skill that compares to fighting Luke- you have no case.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Look up 'simultaneously', lighting up an entire section of the Anakin Solo a 1600 meter Star Destroyer is a huge after-image feat. We could also take a look at him formimg an ever present fan of light with his saber.
Originally posted by AncientPower
It wasn't shatterpoint.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Durability is an umbrella term, Caedus can take severe immolation and still be brutal.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Lumiya could fight an early Luke when she had the advantage of her weapon. Saba is horribly under-rated considering her own extreme power in the Force so that really isn't much of anything. Mara could never take on Caedus in a proper one-on-one fight, that was made abudantly clear, she could only batman him to death.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Scourge doesn't come close to the likes of Kenobi, the greatest Soresu practitioner ever, in lightsaber skill. Whereas Caedus has demonstrated absolute dominance in actual dueling and speed in dueling over a major list of opponents, including Jaina, Katarn and more.
Obi-Wan being an arguably unparalleled expert of Form III means jack.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh and that is off by quite a bit, Luke and Caedus for quite a considerable amount of time before it devolved into a senseless brawl. Also, Luke did not want to get injured, on the contrary he was completely on the defensive and was trying to protect his son.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Ben was far from just a Padawan at that point, he was being groomed as an apprentice and Caedus displayed full mastery of the technique, not just able to sever him repeatedly but restore that connection at will. He has also displayed the mastery required to perform the same on himself. It is definitely within his repertoire.
Originally posted by AncientPower
What? He doesn't attack them with Force Lightning he can summon electrical surges in his opponents that paralyse their spinal cords, which would at the very least take the HoT's allies out, but I'm just yet again being generous.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Too bad none of those Jedi have actual feats on a tier close to Caedus.
Originally posted by AncientPower
When three of them are essentially irrelevant then that is a moot point.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Except he is, you've overblown the martial aspect of that fight considerably. You've also managed to forget to note how impressive it is that Caedus can take on his uncle in a fist fight considering Luke has the best augmentatiom feats in the lore. But that's okay.
Don't be surprised if HoT manages to take on Luke too.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Caedus is confirmed to be a superior duelist than Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn and Jaina. Considering that Mara Jade in her youth was taking on Vader without getting steamrolled decades before her prime is an enormous sign of skill. She has been repeatedly stated to have some of the best combat skills in the New Jedi Order, yet head on she would lose to Caedus.
Mara's good decision-making potential served her well.
Though, I don't think that the hypothetical Jedi Strike Team comprises of idiots. They are not lacking in power either.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Kyle Katarn is a battlemaster with a considerable list of skill feats and has proven he is one of the greatest combatants in the Order. His talents as a lightsaber instructor infact stated to be as good a job as Luke could have done.
Kyp Durron wasn't afraid to acknowledge Katarn either.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Jaina Solo of course is not long after killing Caedus repeatedly suggested throughout Fate of the Jedi to be almost peerless with her lightsaber and infact is compared to Luke more than once. Noting of course that Fate of the Jedi is not as far ahead of Legacy of the Force as some believe.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I have done each class bar Smuggler at least 5 times each and have a detailed memory of all the game's events. I recently finished all 3.0 content for all classes and Nox to my delight is being blatantly set-up for most powerful protag.