That's fair enough, can't force you to be interested in this shit :maybe
Think that's part of the problem, Star Wars vs battles seem kind of insular
There's no real logic behind why you may or may not determine why moving an ISD is more impressive than moving an X-wing other than "because of the weight"... which kind of ignores Yoda's "size matters not" thing :maybe
You're ignoring the other half of the force or energy equation out of some kind of ill conceived convenience as far as I can gather :hmm
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
why moving an ISD is more impressive than moving an X-wing
The only thing I disagree with is when you said Anakin Solo, Leia, and Luke joined together and used the entire Light-side to beat him. I have the comic, it just says they unlocked each other's potential and used Force Harmony and Force Sever. Not saying that's not impressive but I would really like to know where people are getting the entirety of the Light-side thing, cause it wasn't said in the DE comics.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In my four years of debating now, and looking through threads that date back ten years, I never seen pretty much any issues on judging what is more impressive.
When it is, it involves game mechanics, which is an entire debate in itself. You would be surprised how many forums have the death penalty for even using cutscenes.
You'd be surprised what ignoring physics draws out in terms of ignorant arguments that would otherwise be mocked to hell at if they knew their stance relied on everyone being ignorant :maybe
Galen Marek vs ISD in TFU comes to mind where the desperate claim that, due to already being in free fall, his manipulation of the mass is unimpressive.
Basic knowledge of shit like kinetic energy would tell you how full of shit they are given he accelerates the ship's descent at 2-3 times the original free fall speed it had obtained (which, given the equation KE = 0.5MV^2, means an exponential increase in the energy behind the ship).
The game mechanics thing baffles me, but then again, I debate all fiction and can draw on other examples as for why the exclusion of game feats is stupid :maybe
Originally posted by The Merchant
Yeah Marek moving 10 billion Metric Tons is above a lot of things we see in the Mythos. Heck in the 2nd game his clone charged a Gun that split one in-half.
One of the better showings in the mythos in general, yeah
Not as OP as some might paint him for it, but eh
Originally posted by The Merchant
Also don't forget that Plagueis when he died released force energies that shook Coruscant to its core.
I missed that on my read through :hmm
Have a quote?
Originally posted by The Merchant
The only thing I disagree with is when you said Anakin Solo, Leia, and Luke joined together and used the entire Light-side to beat him. I have the comic, it just says they unlocked each other's potential and used Force Harmony and Force Sever. Not saying that's not impressive but I would really like to know where people are getting the entirety of the Light-side thing, cause it wasn't said in the DE comics.
I suppose its open to interruption with the severing of his control over the Force Storm. I do not see anything about potential, only that Leia helps Luke open back up to the Light Side.
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
One of the better showings in the mythos in general, yeahNot as OP as some might paint him for it, but eh
I missed that on my read through :hmm
Have a quote?
Originally posted by Darth Plagueis prologue/pdf
A tremor took hold of the planet. Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world's core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake's epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn't constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification-a gravitic shift.A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him. Slowly, almost reluctantly, he came back to himself, his gaze settling on his manicured hands. Returned to the present, he took note of his rapid breathing, while behind him the room labored to restore order. Air scrubbers hummed-costly wall tapestries undulating in the summoned breeze. Prized carpets sealed their fibers against the spread of spilled fluids. The droid shuffled in obvious confliction. Sidious pivoted to take in the disarray: antique furniture overturned; framed artwork askew. As if a whirlwind had swept through. And facedown on the floor lay a statue of Yanjon, one of four law-giving sages of Dwartii.
A piece Sidious had secretly coveted.
Also sprawled there, Plagueis: his slender limbs splayed and elongated head turned to one side.
Dressed in finery, as for a night on the town.
And now dead.
Eh best destructive feats in the mythos for EU can be stuff like Luke becoming the essence of an immovable object while generating energy and telekinetic power surpassing that of the engines required to move the mass of a star dreadnought class Super Star Destroyer in the Dark Nest/Swarm War Trilogy.
Sedriss and a certain Tales of the Jedi surviving Jedi Master using the energies of a planet to kill each other in Dark Empire II while battling on Ossus, another Jedi Master containing the energies of a planetary scale dark side energies into a lake, Kun force-draining the Massassai on Yavin 4, and others stand out.
That part was hyperbole I think. Though Luke is capable of matching Abeloth after the power up he receives with Ben from the Aing Ti's Codex in the Force, which projects his power to the senses to the Lost Tribe of Sith, who are physically harmed by sensing his Force aura. And being match of Abeloth who could indirectly vaporize an entire city and cause thousands to implode near her while those further out where vaporized and the cityscape itself slagged.
As well as having the raw power to stuff an entire planet's worth of dark side energy into a single woman and cause an explosion of energy so potently that it triggers volcanic eruptions and causes a massive supercell of lightning storms on a global scale.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Don't mean to sound like a prick but we don't use science calcs as evidence in these ghettos.
To wit, coming up with the number of Mana points that Traya has access to in comparison to Sidious, or quantifying the "size" of a drain (sever) attack, is probably not going to be met with much respect. This is particularly relevant given ChaosTheory123's apparent determination to lowball characters from KotOR II. His methodology is flawed, in general, and his conclusions specious, in particular. Concern about "teratons" is misplaced when characters have a variety of different techniques which all interact (in concert and in isolation) in a variety of often unpredictable ways.
Neph was correct in all postings in the thread so far:
[list=1]
[*]Regardless of technique's mechanism (see 2) the onscreen results are such that no character is likely to tank or ignore it.
[*]There is evidence that it is not a drain.
[*]Traya's power level is not "a drop in the ocean compared to the ocean that is Sidious."
[*]Sidious uses efficient techniques and protracted rituals to accomplish his best feats, and it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
[*]Traya's feats are particularly impressive, even within the exaggerated scope of the 2 KotOR era games.
(i insist that there are only 2 games lol)
[*]The drain used by N. and Traya is qualitatively different from that developed and preserved by the Ancient Sith, which is (presumably) what Paladius had access to.
[/list]
Originally posted by Zampanó
You're mistaken about the particulars, but correct nonetheless. We do not use pseudoscientific guesses as power-meters for characters who may interact in a number of ways which are not best represented by relational operators on the real line.
See, there's not using calcs to judge feats, which is perfectly fine. That's board preference.
Refer to my Galen Marek vs the ISD example though. Are you saying it's justifiable to arbitrarily determine Galen Marek's feat is less impressive because the ship was in freefall to start with?
You know, despite the fact drawing that conclusion is general disingenuous in relation to what you're actually seeing on the screen?
Telling me you're ignoring the parts of science that works strikes me as "I don't like it" more so than any logical reason to deny it chuckles :maybe
This is why so-called "abc logic" is almost automatically scoffed at, despite the apparent lack of active members who can specify the ways in which such arguments usually fail.
For someone saying so much, you certainly fail to assert a particularly convincing why into your words now :maybe
To wit, coming up with the number of Mana points that Traya has access to in comparison to Sidious, or quantifying the "size" of a drain (sever) attack, is probably not going to be met with much respect.
You certainly say a whole lot of nothing with your rebuttal here.
Substance, do you have anything actually constructive to offer?
Call it mana points, calories, whatever the hell you want.
Be it real life or fiction, we all have a limit in stamina/energy for which we can draw upon to accomplish given tasks.
This is particularly relevant given ChaosTheory123's apparent determination to lowball characters from KotOR II.
I probably high ball them more than any of you actually care to bother :maybe
His methodology is flawed, in general, and his conclusions specious, in particular. Concern about "teratons" is misplaced when characters have a variety of different techniques which all interact (in concert and in isolation) in a variety of often unpredictable ways.
I feel like a broken record in noting this, but for saying so much, you actually offer little in terms of a substantive argument. Do I really need to reach the bottom of your post before I read anything but fluffy prose?
Substance, explain why you think something, don't just state that you do.
[*]Regardless of technique's mechanism (see 2) the onscreen results are such that no character is likely to tank or ignore it.
On screen results show me that she can instantaneously sap 3 someone's powerful enough to stasis Surik.
Nothing on screen actually contradicts my stance.
Query, do you know what appeals to ignorance are and the derivative fallacy of no limits represent?
By all rights, you're effectively suggesting force drain functions to drain any amount of energy without limits... despite possessing no evidence to actually support this notion.
[*]There is evidence that it is not a drain.
...
Who the hell said it wasn't a drain? :lmao
[*]Traya's power level is not "a drop in the ocean compared to the ocean that is Sidious."
As hyperbolic as the statement itself was?
Don't delude yourself chuckles.
Sidious conjures storms that devastate planetary surfaces, something laughably more draining and energy demanding than anything Traya has ever accomplished.
[*]Sidious uses efficient techniques and protracted rituals to accomplish his best feats, and it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
So, are you trying to claim Force Storm is a hax? That his act of creating it isn't his own energy at work?
Which is a topic for another thread seeing as how the premise of this thread flew WAY over your head :maybe
Let me put a more straight forward example out there for you to chew.
You have Traya try to drain a full powered Galactus. Are you going to suggest she can instantly drain him of his considerably larger amount of energy? Why? What reason do you have to believe that Traya's or anyone's upper limit in the mythos can instantly drain someone exponentially more powerful instantly?
[*]Traya's feats are particularly impressive, even within the exaggerated scope of the 2 KotOR era games.
See, I never actually denied that.
Hell, like I said previously, I probably think she's more impressive than most of you do, given how per forum differences in feat analysis goes... we kind of go all out with specifics over yonder :maybe
(i insist that there are only 2 games lol)
Can't say I blame you, I'm sort of annoyed the current one is an MMO, even if I do like some of the characters it has.
[*]The drain used by N. and Traya is qualitatively different from that developed and preserved by the Ancient Sith, which is (presumably) what Paladius had access to.
[/list]
You are consistent
I'll give you that
So much text, so little was actually said.
You state what you think, but fail to actually discuss the WHY.
Relevance of this difference? How's it contradict my interpretation of the skills?
Thank you for the support Zam. <3
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
...>He creates them through his own power to destroy
>some how not his own energy doing the work
>Uses physics as some kind of dodge despite feat analysis being dependent on physics in the first place... are you insinuating its a ****ing hax?
>Still the strongest force technique ever seen in the mythos, powerscaling to much lesser feats is kind of a given from what I understand.
> He tears open space and time or whatever and then controls and directs the forces that unleashes.
> If Sidious really had the power in him to rip fleets apart or tear the surfaces off of worlds, then why would he need to create the Force Storm at all instead of just using TK?
> Claims to use physics to prove his point. Fails to use physics to defend his argument.
> I'm not arguing it isn't powerful (Nihilus' drain > tho) just that it doesn't make Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Traya.
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
And what about these Sith makes them powerful enough to be considered a measuring stick of worth compared to Sidious?
Naturally the Sith don't compare to Sidious. But the combined power of all 7 of them is definitely a good measuring stick for a comparison with him. Being able to effortlessly murder 7 of them with the Force demonstrates an impeccable level of power that's right up there with other powerhouses. Powerhouses who I can't see Sidious as being over twice as powerful than. Sidious isn't that far ahead of someone like Traya.
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
And your basis for concluding I'm overrating him is?You said so?
Come on now chuckles, substance is sorely lacking here. Feats, give me a reason to think she can drain the energy he has at his disposal if left defenseless before he just tears her head off with his mind. :maybe
A good half-dozen years of debating on these topics and exhaustively determining Sidious and Traya's respective places in the mythos in terms of power? Traya smacked around and insta-killed 3 Jedi Council Members, murdered 7 Sith assassins at once with ease, had incredibly advanced telepathic and telekinetic abilities and was more powerful than the Jedi Exile who turned the Trayas Academy into a charnel house. She is very powerful and much more than a drop in a bucket compared to Sidious. Sure he might still be capable of choking the shit out of her like he did to Dooku. But there's no way he eclipses her as thoroughly as you think.
Also, again, theres reasons to think it isn't a drain.
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Not really how it worksTraya has a shown limit to the kind of power she herself can actually harness.
That amount of energy is dwarfed by how much force power someone like Sidious would have to draw upon.
She actually hasn't shown a limit. There's a limit to what she's shown, but simply because she hasn't demonstrated greater than that doesn't mean she cannot exceed her efforts. Particularly since she showed no effort while draining the Jedi Masters and since she would have grown more powerful after performing that feat.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
An explanation would be appreciated.
Ok.
Its very slow despite the other technique being exceedingly quick.
There's no mention of complete severance from the force or the creation of absences in the Force like in Traya's feat.
There's no mention of the technique killing its victim, instead Paladius seems to think he has to kill Nox another way.
It works completely differently. Paladius mentions Nox's essence being drained at the same time as her force connection being severed, when Traya describes the technique as severing one from the force and then feeding upon the death that causes.
It looks visually different from what is shown in both Kotor 2 and in Unseen, Unheard.
Paladius exhibits none of the symptoms the technique causes in it's users, which he should show if he's progressed to the point of conscious, directed use of it and he mentions he's had to repeatedly use it against rival Sith.
Paladius exhibits none of the secondary benefits of the technique seen in the Trayas Assassins, the Exile and Nihilus.
None of what Paladius does resembles any variation of the technique seen in Kotor 2. Nothing like what any of the Exile, the assassins, Traya or Nihilus do.
Furthermore, part of Traya's plan was the utterly and completely destroy all knowledge of the technique and means to learn it and there's no known way for Paladius to have acquired it in the TOR era.
Neph
Palpatine doesn't exactly rip the surfaces off of planets and destroy ships with his own power though, he uses his power to create a wormhole that does those things through physics and shit. Its like suggesting I can punch
through a wall because I can light a stick of dynamite.
Neph
> He tears open space and time or whatever and then controls and directs the forces that unleashes.
> If Sidious really had the power in him to rip fleets apart or tear the surfaces off of worlds, then why would he need to create the Force Storm at all instead of just using TK?
Put politely, that's silly.
The Emperor can cause planetary damage via Force storm. The fact that he's not known to do so by other means you arbitrarily find to be more indicative of great power is irrelevant. No one here has claimed that Sidious can defile worlds with brute TK and so the distinction you attempt to make is meaningless and a transparent, clumsy attempt to mock and belittle a character you don't like and the many noble users who defend him. {Not to mention the fact that you leave yourself vulnerable to similar objections with regard to Traya, Nihilus, Vitiate, etc.}
Badabing won't tolerate such tomfoolery. Be careful. 👆
I never claimed that he couldn't, or that it isn't indicative of great power. Being able to tear open spacetime and control such a thing is still incredibly impressive. I'm just saying that it's not so to the degree's ChaosTheory believes it to be and doesn't suggest Sidious is miles above everyone else.
Also your attempts to try and turn Bada's policies back on us is an extremely infantile and impotent display. Nothing about my post was mocking. Stop trying to speak for him and backseat mod.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I never claimed that he couldn't, or that it isn't indicative of great power. Being able to tear open spacetime and control such a thing is still incredibly impressive. I'm just saying that it's not so to the degree's ChaosTheory believes it to be and doesn't suggest Sidious is miles above everyone else.
That depends how much prestige you ascribe to feats. ChaosTheory is right: it's a feat in vast excess of what most Force users have demonstrated or are capable of and to claim or insinuate otherwise is silly.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also your attempts to try and turn Bada's policies back on us is an extremely infantile and impotent display. Nothing about my post was mocking. Stop trying to speak for him and backseat mod.
I'm not speaking for anyone. Your behavior indicates that you're laboring under the delusion that Badabing is limiting his pronouncements to specific users and with regards to specific characters. But he made it pretty clear that none of that behavior will be tolerated from anyone. Not from carthage, and not from you.
Stop mocking Sidious and his defenders. It's hypocritical and pretty shitty.