Force Drain: How's it work?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Oh Good Lord. I asked Zamp that question as to clarify any insinuations or implications I may have misread rather than brazenly accuse him of something he doesn't believe.

If you weren't so eager to mock me and Sidious, you'd have gathered that. I'm going to ask you again to please stop. It's disrespectful as hell.

And I didn't claim you accused him of anything. I simply stated that you were way off base in your misreading of implications and that you have been similarly off base previously in the thread.

I don't see the mockery in saying that you're misreading something when even you admit that you did. Don't be so touchy.

I said I may have misread the gist of his arguments. That's how implications and insinuations work. You can misread them. 😬

I asked Zamp that question to ascertain just that.

And you're absolutely mocking me {you're even lying about what I've said} and you honestly need to stop.

*temp's trolling intensifies*

In Jedi Knight academmy force drain force power before drain life and vital energy... By speculation, I suppose than medichlorian are linked toe the force and provide vital energy by converting force energy into vital energy... Force user medichlorian save force energy at it's pure form by reconverting vital energy into force energy.. Like plant with reperation and photo synthèse emchanic...
To keep a certain amoubnt of force energy depending of the number of medichlorians...
I suppose than when you are draining life after draining force energy... Than you are draining vital energy by forcing those reverse medichlorian to over drain vital energy...

And Kreia have her own explanation..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1421914688&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=GrZzNbtjt7A#t=1485

My theory about this is about feeding on an energy called teh Dark or the echoes of destruction like sith and Jedi call it.. This technic is use by Rhand sorcerer....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1421914688&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=EF3wh09avsI#t=58
This one is epic that's why I'm getting so dumb to stand on this forum...
Single idea focusing is forcing by the other...

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Looks like I've missed several pages. mmm

Z., you seem very adamant to establish that Traya is a challenge for someone like Sidious. Are you suggesting that she is as or more powerful than the Emperor?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Instead of proceeding with a line-by-line dissection of the Enemy’s posts, I’mma utilize a more synoptic approach and quell their heresy all the same.

The Emperor triggers a Force storm with “mere thought and inclination” (The Essential Guide to the Force) whereas The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia declares that light siders could only conjure them in groups. While one might be tempted to say that this might be due to the aggressive emotions involved in the creation of Force storms, the Jedi Path says that the Jedi Council ultimately outlawed the ability because “of the Force Storm’s potential for abuse”—not any issue associated with summoning it to begin with. Clearly, then, the fact that Sidious is capable of bringing them into existence unaided and at leisure whereas no other known Force user is capable of such casual mastery speaks to the fact that not any Tom, Sith, or Harry with a bare minimum of midi-chlorians and an abundance of cruel intentions can replicate the feat. In other words, it’s disingenuous to suggest that conjuring a Force storm is divorced of the user’s power. {The Jedi Path also says that “the creation of a hyperspace wormhole [b]is a powerful use of the Force”}[/b]

Fascinating. The crux of this matter then relies on one's semantic interpretation of the Jedi Path's usage of the word "power." Given that the Jedi of Yoda's time are hesitant to even use telekinesis in their daily lives (c.f. Attack of the Clones fruit-levitation scene) it is conceivable that the locus of the worrisome power of the Force Storm lies not in its creation but in its application. For a spiritual enclave to possess the power to rend space time, annihilate starfleets, or scour planets, is certainly something that would be considered problematic by both the leadership of said order and the political apparatus dealing with same.

Your evidence does not guarantee that your position on the power required to initiate the Force Storm is unambiguously true. Other interpretations fit the data provided.

Bear in mind, also, that this point about the difficulty of summoning a Force storm is secondary to the next conversational point that you try to address:
[quote]
That said, the objections raised with respect to Force storms ultimately ring hollow since [b]no one {to my knowledge} has asserted that the Emperor is capable of defiling worlds with brute TK. All that is being asserted is that the Emperor is known to be capable of planetary-level destruction {fact} whereas most other Force adepts—Traya included—are not {fact}. Depending on how much prestige one ascribes to sheer feats—and I’m not seeking to adjudicate that issue—that is indicative of a titanic disparity with respect to strength and mastery.[/b]

ChaosTheory, pg. 1
Traya's basically a drop of water compared to the ocean that is Sidious

ChaosTheory , pg. 1
Sidious has the power to conjure force storms able to raze planetary surfaces and destroy fleets of ships with shields with around petatons of energy per IIRC

Traya's best feat is being stronger than Surik, who at the most generous interpretation be said to possess teratons of energy for slaying the Greater Storm Beast

Let's think about WHY someone as strong as Sidious wouldn't even notice the loss in energy and stamina as he prepares to smear someone of Traya's power with TK

My concern has always been that the Force Storm might just be a particularly efficient way of causing damage; the tearing of space time might require nothing more than "inclination" and be incredibly destructive relative to the same amount of effort applied by way of lightning, for example.

Neph has a way of making my point succinctly and without condescension:

Neph, pg. 1
Palpatine doesn't exactly rip the surfaces off of planets and destroy ships with his own power though, he uses his power to create a wormhole that does those things through physics and shit. Its like suggesting I can punch
through a wall because I can light a stick of dynamite.

From there the thread gets a little frayed but as I recall, CT's rejection/dismissal of Neph was my motivation to be condescending and awful until CT abandoned the thread. But the point remains that by implication of the space-armada destruction feat, someone concluded that Sidious had more Force energy than another character. In fact, no such conclusion can be drawn from that point of evidence.

Moving on:

So where does Traya register next to the Emperor? I also acknowledge the futility of ascribing exactitude to a comparison between them. These things can’t be quantified and the only time we ever are given exact standing between two characters is when it is assigned by Word of God {e.g., Lucas declaring Vader represents 80% of Sidious}. Furthermore, as I already mentioned, it depends greatly on how much prestige one ascribes to feats. There is an exponential disparity in peak performance: Traya has casually conquered half a dozen Sith assassins; the Emperor can raze worlds and devour starfleets. That said, the idea of a comparison to the Emperor flattering for Traya is pretty untenable. He enjoys a tremendous advantage with regards to feats and accolades—both of which outstrip Traya’s with respect to quality and quantity. He’s simply the more powerful, masterful, and accomplished Force user; the superior Sith.

I'm not arguing that Traya has done anything demonstrably superior to Sidious. I would, as an aside, argue that her prophecy of the entire Mandalorian Doom is a point in favor of her clairvoyance / foresight being on par, if not superior to, Sidious'. Rather, I believe that the interaction of the Drain qua Force-Sever with Darth Sidious' Force reserves is an open question that ought not be resolved by way of Force Storm mechanics. The Force-Sever is not a technique that has a clear defense through either power or opposition. I'd be much more impressed by an investigation into the ways that a Force connection can be hidden from the sever in the first place.

As it stands, no evidence has been submitted that Sidious has Force reserves in midichlorians that make Traya look like a drop in the ocean. Nor has evidence been given that such reserves, were they to exist, would be a proper defense against the drain.

But in our analyses it’s also important to take inventory of agendas. Zamp himself opened the door when he brazenly accused ChaosTheory123 of a polemic agenda with respect to Traya and KotOR 2 characters in general. Everyone in this thread has an established agenda to some degree or another. Zamp and Neph have been devout KotOR 2 apologists for years and their positions and arguments reflect that—“and it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.”

Neph and Zamp. should reacquaint themselves with the No Limits Fallacy before again appealing to the omnipotence of the KotOR 2 drain.
[/list]

National debate competitor? That's a thing people still do in their spare time?

Originally posted by Zampanó
From there the thread gets a little frayed but as I recall, CT's rejection/dismissal of Neph was my motivation to be condescending and awful until CT abandoned the thread.

Awwww. 😍

Obviously it goes without saying that Zam is correct in every regard.

Was this really bumped after a month?

Ah well, suppose shooting the shit doesn't hurt anything

Originally posted by Zampanó
Fascinating. The crux of this matter then relies on one's semantic interpretation of the Jedi Path's usage of the word "power." Given that the Jedi of Yoda's time are hesitant to even use telekinesis in their daily lives (c.f. Attack of the Clones fruit-levitation scene) it is conceivable that the locus of the worrisome power of the Force Storm lies not in its creation but in its application.

Is it possible?

Yeah, not really denying that.

Fictional character vs battles kind of leave much to interpretation.

If I somehow gave you the impression I was asserting my interpretation was the only correct interpretation?

Sorry for wasting your time enough that you felt the need to respond to someone about a month later over it :maybe

For a spiritual enclave to possess the power to rend space time, annihilate starfleets, or scour planets, is certainly something that would be considered problematic by both the leadership of said order and the political apparatus dealing with same.

I feel you're kind of putting way too much thought into this when there are plenty of examples in fiction where entire races of people possess the power to destroy planets on their lonesome (as in, individuals) yet choose not to (Saiyans, Celestials, Q (Or so I've heard), etc)

When it gets down to it, when they fail to use that power, it can often be chalked up to PIS.

Your evidence does not guarantee that your position on the power required to initiate the Force Storm is unambiguously true. Other interpretations fit the data provided.

Indeed

Well, as a fact about the way the discourse proceeded, the implication was that Sidious's Fleet-Destroying ought to be used as the metric for evaluating his raw Force strength.

I just see it as the difference between a generic ki blast and kamemahemaha in dragon ball for all intents and purposes.

Or maybe it'd be more apt to say generic Fire spell compared to Firaga or Flare/Meteor if you've ever played any JRPG

There are alternative interpretations of course, suppose it just depends on communal standards of the forum you're on when its not entirely spelled out which works best.

My concern has always been that the Force Storm might just be a particularly efficient way of causing damage; the tearing of space time might require nothing more than "inclination" and be incredibly destructive relative to the same amount of effort applied by way of lightning, for example.

Could be

Not the only interpretation, but could be

Neph has a way of making my point succinctly and without condescension:

He asserts what he thinks, never actually bothering to throw in the why of it

The point of debate is persuasion, the why of your reasoning is kind of a big factor in doing that

From there the thread gets a little frayed but as I recall, CT's rejection/dismissal of Neph was my motivation to be condescending and awful until CT abandoned the thread.

I suppose I can applaud the loyalty to a friend thing you've got going there

If you were going for "condescending and awful" though?

You missed your mark as far as I'm concerned

And I dismissed Neph for reasons I stated above

You're the national level debater and I'm the self admitted shit one, maybe you can show me where he showcased his reasons (that "why" I mentioned) for believing what he did in his exchange with me :hmm

Rather, I believe that the interaction of the Drain qua Force-Sever with Darth Sidious' Force reserves is an open question that ought not be resolved by way of Force Storm mechanics.

That's a fair enough stance.

Wasn't ever the point of the thread, but its a fair stance.

The Force-Sever is not a technique that has a clear defense through [b]either power or opposition.[/B]

If this were the case, Odan-Urr would have ended the threat of Exar Kun

Or are you talking about Nihilus' force drain exclusively?

Because just because we're not given a clear idea on how one defends against his attack doesn't actually mean we can't use context clues and general comparisons to infer how one could defend against it

Given his force drain, or any force drain presented in the media, sort of fails to act any differently than a generic JRPG's drain spell

As it stands, no evidence has been submitted that Sidious has Force reserves in midichlorians that make Traya look like a drop in the ocean.

Were you really that incensed by my hyperbole?

It wasn't even the focus of my thread

As soon as Neph established, even as arbitrary an upper limit as it was, that he didn't think someone like the Son would be drained instantly, the original purpose of this thread was fulfilled

Nor has evidence been given that such reserves, were they to exist, would be a proper defense against the drain.

Is that appeal to ignorance supposed to be compelling?

You really can't play too many video games, because Force Drain, mechanically speaking, doesn't function any differently than generic Drain magic in a given RPG

Nihilus' scale might be larger than most, but he's still just eating energy

The matter of determining its limits comes from how powerful the people it drains are and how fast it drains them

At least Neph seems to understand this, hard capping it at the Son/Father/Daughter

I'm curious now though, would you conclude the same? Would Traya/Nihilus be able to drain someone like the Living Tribunal dry instantly?

Frankly I'm more concerned with the implication that secondary or incidental consequences of Force use would immediately accrue to a "power level" stat for each character.

This can be done for any fiction

It needs to be done to do inter-series comparisons

Like what I try to do in the OBD

Not really seeing your aversion to it, outside not wanting acknowledge the fact most writers are rubbish at making sure shit stays consistent

Like, if Scout learned to do acrobatics particularly efficiently because of that character's tenuous connection to the Force, I'd consider that qualitatively different from Kenobi using a DS amp to vault over Maul.

Don't insult me with such shitty examples

Kenobi's force jump is quantifiably superior in terms of the energy behind it

I mean, shit, the generic acrobatic shit like flips are well in human (IE: most gymnasts) limits compared to jumping meters high into the air

Similarly, when Jacen goes all out against the Vong in his escape during Traitor, the effects are pretty impressive. I would hesitate to argue that his feat is indicative of a "true" powerlevel, though, because the way the Force is used against Vong is qualitatively different from other beings. This means that we can't measure Traitor's showings against Anakin in Labyrinth, I think.

Aren't the Vong just generically anti magic due to living outside the force or something?

I haven't bothered reading anything involving them to actually know if your comparison is as rubbish as your above one :hmm

If they are just generically anti magic though?

Your comparison kind of falls flat on its face

Temp should acquaint himself with the Fallacy fallacy before trying it against a national debate competitor.

I'd of probably kept that to myself if I were you

You're on the internet, playing yourself up just begs for someone to smack you down

(Also: The Limit Fallacy is equally damning; the Death Star wasn't shown to be able to do Gas Giants but I have little doubt that it could, despite the greater mass, etc. ...)

No shit it could destroy a gas giant, and that has nothing to do with lack of shown limits

It has all to do with the fact it mass scattered the planetary mass at an average speed sitting in the sub-relativistic range, giving it a large KE

Try claiming it can do this to even a Star though?

Burden of Proof is on you to support that though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Awwww. 😍

Obviously it goes without saying that Zam is correct in every regard.

That'd be called confirmation bias more than anything in your case Neph :maybe

Maybe not. Zam just happens to have his facts straight and is very intelligent.

Tbh I find Force Drain entirely overrated.

I'd of probably kept that to myself if I were you

You're on the internet, playing yourself up just begs for someone to smack you down

jfc

As much as I love our intermittent sparring, time constraints borne from resurgent professional and social demands dictate an economic response. {Wouldn't want you to have to wait an entire month for a rebuttal. uhuh}

Z.
Your evidence does not guarantee that your position on the power required to initiate the Force Storm is unambiguously true. Other interpretations fit the data provided.

Yours doesn't. Ethical concerns—while obviously the reason for the technique's proscription—were equally obviously irrelevant to the technique being used in the first place. You have provided no logical alternative as to why the Jedi were only ever known to trigger Force storms en masse and why the only known individual to do so is the Emperor. Both parties possessed the knowledge but clearly only one had the strength to do it unaided.

Z.
Well, as a fact about the way the discourse proceeded, the implication was that Sidious's Fleet-Destroying ought to be used as the metric for evaluating his raw Force strength. That piece of information was to be used to estimate the degree to which a Force Drain from another user (i.e. Traya) would be debilitating. Evidence:

Z.
But the point remains that [b]by implication of the space-armada destruction feat, someone concluded that Sidious had more Force energy than another character. In fact, no such conclusion can be drawn from that point of evidence.[/b]

As I explained to Neph in this very thread, implications are oftentimes easily misread {especially when the interpreter's agenda is at play}. ChaosTheory is correct that the Emperor is triggering and managing exponentially more energy with his mighty Force storms than is Traya with her relatively paltry Force drain. Your condescension was misplaced.

Z.
I'm not arguing that Traya has done anything demonstrably superior to Sidious.

Fair enough.

Z.
I would, as an aside, argue that her prophecy of the entire Mandalorian Doom is a point in favor of her clairvoyance / foresight being on par, if not superior to, Sidious'.

I wouldn't. That prophecy was made whilst centered in the Trayus Academy on Malachor V, an exceptionally powerful dark side nexus.

Z.
As it stands, no evidence has been submitted that Sidious has Force reserves in midichlorians that make Traya look like a drop in the ocean. Nor has evidence been given that such reserves, were they to exist, would be a proper defense against the drain.

Did ChaosTheory specifically mention midichlorians, though? All I recall is the aforementioned metaphor wherein Sidious is the ocean and Traya is the drop. And as has been said, depending on what degree of prestige one ascribes sheer feats, one can absolutely make that case. The Emperor can devour fleets and raze worlds; Traya's achievements are outclassed by several orders of magnitude.

Z.
Frankly I'm more concerned with the implication that secondary or incidental consequences of Force use would immediately accrue to a "power level" stat for each character. Like, if Scout learned to do acrobatics particularly efficiently because of that character's tenuous connection to the Force, I'd consider that qualitatively different from Kenobi using a DS amp to vault over Maul. Similarly, when Jacen goes all out against the Vong in his escape during Traitor, the effects are pretty impressive. I would hesitate to argue that his feat is indicative of a "true" powerlevel, though, because the way the Force is used against Vong is qualitatively different from other beings. This means that we can't measure Traitor's showings against Anakin in Labyrinth, I think.

I totally agree with the notion that it's pointless to ascribe figures and percentages to both Force use and user. Beyond that, this seems a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters in an otherwise decisively unflattering comparison between Sidious and Traya. You have historically had absolutely no problem comparing disparate feats Force use and drawing strict conclusions. I see no reason why this particular comparison constitutes a problem.

Z.
Temp should acquaint himself with the Fallacy fallacy before trying it against a national debate competitor. (Also: The Limit Fallacy is equally damning; the Death Star wasn't shown to be able to do Gas Giants but I have little doubt that it could, despite the greater mass, etc. ...)

lol

It's a good thing that I did no such thing against no such person. I didn't claim your conclusion was untrue, I merely implied that it was propped up by fallacy {which it is}. As ChaosTheory reminded you, it's the burden of you and Neph to prove the omnipotence of the Force drain, not mine to refute.

Z.

I want it!

{It pains me that my response is so utterly bereft of snark and .gifs, especially when you left the door open so deliciously for it. Another time, my beloved Ginger son. Another time. excellent}

{But go ahead and pretend I've been snarky throughout this post. uhuh}

Originally posted by Zampanó
Yup, I've faltered in my inexorable march through objectivity to incontrovertible truth. Never again shall i slip and reveal humanity in the course of my duties of unimpeachable rhetorical truthseeking.

jfc

Not sure where your seeming aggravation is coming from :hmm

It amuses the hell out of me, I just can't figure out why it seems to be there :maybe