Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? LolThe energy Sidious summons to rip holes in the fabric of space belong to Sidious. It's a display of sheer raw power which he has at his disposal just as the endnotes indicate (can't quote verbatim; don't have access to the source ATM).
Tearing surfaces off worlds doesn't match the raw power required in tearing holes in the very fabric of space/time.
Don't know what you're trying to get at here, but yes it is display of raw power/strength and control. To insinuate it's just a display of control when just about every source concludes otherwise, is lowballing the feat. I can provide sources later.
Sidious has fodderized characters, who exceed Traya in power. That's not lowballing her.
Originally posted by ZampanóYes. The power that Sidious uses to tear open the wormholes belongs to Sidious (up to debates about how using Byss as a power source qualifies as "his own power"😉. What I would dispute is the idea that it is a "display of sheer raw power" when in fact we are told that Sidious can initiate the technique "through a simple act of will." In Jedi vs. Sith, Sidious describes the storms as "vastly destructive and virtually unstopable." However, he writes that he must admit he is "not yet able to completely control the phenomenon." This suggests to me that the generation of the storm does not involve a store of energy from which the destructive phenomena will be powered. Rather, the storm itself causes the damage, and Palpatine merely sets it in motion. This is the difference between dismantling a town yourself and starting an avalanche by shouting in the mountains. The avalanche has a lot of power, but [b]you don't have that power, despite being responsible for the damage.
Again (from the same page, even) you seem to be mistaken. The technique is accomplished "with a thought" and relies upon "mediating anger and will with clarity and precision." That doesn't match the description of other, more powerful draws upon the Force that we see from Anakin, Luke, or even Dooku and Vader.
Feel Free.
I would dispute the idea that any of the characters Sidious has unambiguously defeated exceed (rather than match) Traya in power. The "fodderized" B-team certainly does not, for example.
Both Maul and Savage do not fall far below Traya in power, and Dooku most likely exceeds her. Both have overpowered multiple force users at once, but Dooku's opponents have better feats and hype. Sidious easily subdued Maul and Savage at the same time despite their efforts to repulse his hold on them. He's choked Dooku from half way across the galaxy. Traya wouldn't stand a chance against Sidious.
The source I remember best, and can almost quote verbatim, is the quote from the last issue of DE 1 endnotes, which describes Sidious as a chaotic nexus of energy that burst open the fabric of space. There is another source which outright states that the storm is created by Sidious' personal power. Whether or not he has perfect control over the storms is irrelevant to the power required to summon them. Hell, he seemingly lost control of his lightning when Vader threw him over the shaft. Your avalanche analogy doesn't work due to the fact that shouting wouldn't be as potent as the damage the avalanche would cause, nor would the destruction be a result of the persons personal might. The energy required to unleash such devastating energies, potent enough to rip apart the fabric of space, belong to Palpatine. Your analogy is like comparing Bob punching a whole through a wall with his fist to Bill accidently doing so by knocking over a heavy, unstable object which busted through the wall. In Bob's case, he did it with his physical might; in Bill's case, he did it by being clumsy and knocking over a very unstable heavy object.
Do you apply the same reasoning to force lightning? After all, it too requires a thought.
Also, the source you posted comes from Sidious' own words, recorded in the book of anger. I take it the same as Yoda implying a force user has no limit. Not to mention that Palpatine's demonstration was intended to be a display of sheer raw power, which is what the endnotes emphasizes.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Both Maul and Savage do not fall far below Traya in power, and Dooku most likely exceeds her. Both have overpowered multiple force users at once, but Dooku's opponents have better feats and hype. Sidious easily subdued Maul and Savage at the same time despite their efforts to repulse his hold on them. He's choked Dooku from half way across the galaxy. Traya wouldn't stand a chance against Sidious.
The source I remember best, and can almost quote verbatim, is the quote from the last issue of DE 1 endnotes, which describes Sidious as a chaotic nexus of energy that burst open the fabric of space. There is another source which outright states that the storm is created by Sidious' personal power. Whether or not he has perfect control over the storms is irrelevant to the power required to summon them. Hell, he seemingly lost control of his lightning when Vader threw him over the shaft. Your avalanche analogy doesn't work due to the fact that shouting wouldn't be as potent as the damage the avalanche would cause, nor would the destruction be a result of the persons personal might. The energy required to unleash such devastating energies, potent enough to rip apart the fabric of space, belong to Palpatine. Your analogy is like comparing Bob punching a whole through a wall with his fist to Bill accidently doing so by knocking over a heavy, unstable object which busted through the wall. In Bob's case, he did it with his physical might; in Bill's case, he did it by being clumsy and knocking over a very unstable heavy object.
First and foremost, we do not have a reliable way to measure the way that Force strength (in the sense of midichlorian counts) is involved with the tearing of space-time. So I'm afraid that your assertion that {tearing space-time} is a feat of greater magnitude than {lifting the surface layer of a planet into orbit} is kind of circular / question begging. That is, how do you know how difficult tearing space-time using the Force is? After all, an artifact (an ancient Sith Staff) managed the same thing without a Force reserve of its own.
Secondly, regardless of the magnitude of effort involved in initializing the technique, the mechanism of damage seems to rely on being clever and efficient, as compared to powerful. Hyperspace wormholes appear to be highly destructive phenomena, no matter what caused them to exist. It is entirely consistent for Palpatine to initiate a wormhole and then rely on its natural properties to cause damage. Plo-Koon did a similar thing when he froze the creek. We wouldn't credit him with stopping all of those droids with his own power; instead he acted efficiently. Similarly, in Mass Effect the Warp biotic effect does much more damage than the Throw effect, but we don't credit Warp users with deliberate sub-atomic manipulation. The best they can do is introduce chaos at that subatomic level. Sidious seems to be in the same position with the wormholes.
Do you apply the same reasoning to force lightning? After all, it too requires a thought.
Also, the source you posted comes from Sidious' own words, recorded in the book of anger. I take it the same as Yoda implying a force user has no limit. Not to mention that Palpatine's demonstration was intended to be a display of sheer raw power, which is what the endnotes emphasizes.
Of all people, Palpatine is in the best position to comment on the step by step process for his own technique. More to the point, he is being humble and low-balling his own prowess and mastery. That's hardly in the same category of statements as Yoda's "size matters not."
Originally posted by Zampanó
Color me dubious RE: Mauls. But I suppose it's not an unreasonable comparison to draw between Kreia and Dooku, although I'd probably have the resolution fall with Kreia at least as often as with Dooku. In a fight without ambush, I'd be willing to bet Kreia could fight her way to escape, if nothing else. This is an interesting question that I've never given serious thought before.I believe you're arguing in good faith, but you're using the same equivocation that ChaosTheory did.
First and foremost, we do not have a reliable way to measure the way that Force strength (in the sense of midichlorian counts) is involved with the tearing of space-time. So I'm afraid that your assertion that {tearing space-time} is a feat of greater magnitude than {lifting the surface layer of a planet into orbit} is kind of circular / question begging. That is, how do you know how difficult tearing space-time using the Force is? After all, an artifact (an ancient Sith Staff) managed the same thing without a Force reserve of its own.
Secondly, regardless of the magnitude of effort involved in initializing the technique, the mechanism of damage seems to rely on being clever and efficient, as compared to powerful. Hyperspace wormholes appear to be highly destructive phenomena, no matter what caused them to exist. It is entirely consistent for Palpatine to initiate a wormhole and then rely on its natural properties to cause damage. Plo-Koon did a similar thing when he froze the creek. We wouldn't credit him with stopping all of those droids with his own power; instead he acted efficiently. Similarly, in Mass Effect the Warp biotic effect does much more damage than the Throw effect, but we don't credit Warp users with deliberate sub-atomic manipulation. The best they can do is introduce chaos at that subatomic level. Sidious seems to be in the same position with the wormholes.
A good example, but one with a critical disanalogy. Force Lightning is electric (or darkside?) current manifested into the world. The current itself is what causes damage to people, in direct proportion to the amperage/strength of the lightning. In contrast, Force Storm conjures a hyperspace wormhole which seems to be an inherently damaging phenomenon. The amount of damage it does can be limited by the control of the user, but seemingly not increased. There's not evidence that tearing really hard makes the wormhole more destructive. Additionally, we have narration in source after source about how Force Lightning relies on the rage and power of the generator. More powerful users consistently do more damage. By contrast, there's not evidence that a more powerful space-time tearingperson would result in a more destructive wormhole.Of all people, Palpatine is in the best position to comment on the step by step process for his own technique. More to the point, he is being humble and low-balling his own prowess and mastery. That's hardly in the same category of statements as Yoda's "size matters not." [/B]
True, and you would think the same about Vader regarding his own personal feelings. However, many of his musings in RODV about his deeds during ROTS conflict with what Lucas stated about Anakin/Vader's emotional turmoil. While not in Lucas' tier regarding canon, the writer's intent was to showcase the immense energy Sidious had at his disposal, which, as I said, is heavily emphasized in the endnotes. Jedi vs. Sith conflict with the writer's intent although the former source comes from Sidious' own writing. It also conflicts with other sources as well. I chalk it up to bad writing, and it's not the first source where Palpatine's musings conflict with how other writers portray him. Obviously the author of Jedi vs. Sith didn't pay much attention to the actual comic, especially the intent of that particular scene. Even during the scene, Palpatine implies that it's a display of his force strength, declaring that he is the dark side and lives as energy, then goes on to call the storm his full potency. Those statements from Palpatine himself, backed by various quotes from the comic's endnotes, calling him the "dark side's most powerful expression" and 'being defined by a nexus of energy so intense that he can tear open the fabric of space and destroy anything in it's path,' pretty much go hand in hand and support one another. And I haven't even provided the other sources which will help my argument.
Just to clarify, a force storm is a variant of FL (Book of the Sith, I believe). It's a storm of electrical energy so intense that it can tear open the fabric of space and cause such destruction. No, we have no way of comparing Palpatine's storms to any other force user, because no other user of the technique have shown to do so under their own personal power. They usually require aid.
I will get back to you on the rest when I can. Don't hold your breath, though. I have quite a bit going on in my life ATM. Sorry if this post came out sloppy, it's late and I'm tired, so I typed it out without proof reading it.
Originally posted by Kallig
Both the Dark Empire handbook and the graphic novel itself depict that Palpatine creates and controls the Force Storms. He does not magically pull it out of his with a Sith ritual or use magic to create it, his power, his "rage" and anger, are even stated to be in the narrative exposition the power source behind the Force Storm.[quote=Dark Empire handbook]Emperor Palpatine was very proud of his ability to create and control the hyperspace wormholes.
Its a feat of power as much of it is of fine control or precision. I would post the scan from the handbook but apparently I have a limit on images or links I can post as of late.[/QUOTE]
Force Storm manifests from expanding Force maelstrom energy and the latter itself is a very intensive development.
Every action is performed with a thought. I don't see the point in mentioning this word in particular.
As for the terms such as ritual and magic, these are just semantics.
Force-user makes a decision to perform an action:
1. With a gesture
2. With intense concentration (meditative form)
1 represents basic strategy to perform an action in limited form which is norm and it leaves room for multi-tasking in activities.
2 represents meditative or ritualistic strategy to perform an action in which the Force-user transforms himself into a conduit of great power for maximum effectiveness for a certain action; concentration is likely so intense that a Force-user may not be able to multi-task in this situation.
Originally posted by Kallig
Let me know when she force-drains entire worlds, disables the precognitive abilities of the entire Jedi Order, and surpass even with her mere presence alone the ambient energy to affect the weather system of entire worlds on a global scale.
Sidious and Plagueis jointly disturbed the balance of the Force in favor of the dark side. This development clouded Jedi prophetic abilities.
I don't recall Sidious ever influencing the weather system of an entire world.
Originally posted by Kallig
Sidious did it to a planet of 20 billion. So color anyone else skeptical of the claim that even if Traya fired off a force-drain attack on Sidious, its not going to kill him.
Otherwise, Force Drain is known to weaken and eventually kill the targets.
Traya unleashed Force Drain on the Jedi Masters with lethal intent and she outright killed the Jedi Masters on short notice. The amount of energy expended in this action won't be much less then the mass draining feat performed by Sidious, if scale and effects are taken into account.
Force Drain is known to accelerate aging process, the faster it does so, the faster it kills. The more power behind it, the greater its effects manifest accordingly.
Originally posted by Kallig
Most people who know the technique know how to defend against it and ultimately, most of this board seems to invoke a no limits argument and abuse it for her or others as a catch-all victory strategy.
During the confrontation between Strike Team of Luke and Krayt against Abeloth, Krayt siphoned life-force of Abeloth to weaken her. Luke experienced the same from Abeloth and initially felt that Krayt was betraying him and acted against the Sith Lord.
However:
Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized that he was not being betrayed—the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.
Taken from Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
So whether Krayt siphoned life-force of Luke or not at one point, remains open to interpretation. More likely Luke was confused by these developments during the heat of the battle.
Instead of proceeding with a line-by-line dissection of the Enemy’s posts, I’mma utilize a more synoptic approach and quell their heresy all the same.
The Emperor triggers a Force storm with “mere thought and inclination” (The Essential Guide to the Force) whereas The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia declares that light siders could only conjure them in groups. While one might be tempted to say that this might be due to the aggressive emotions involved in the creation of Force storms, the Jedi Path says that the Jedi Council ultimately outlawed the ability because “of the Force Storm’s potential for abuse”—not any issue associated with summoning it to begin with. Clearly, then, the fact that Sidious is capable of bringing them into existence unaided and at leisure whereas no other known Force user is capable of such casual mastery speaks to the fact that not any Tom, Sith, or Harry with a bare minimum of midi-chlorians and an abundance of cruel intentions can replicate the feat. In other words, it’s disingenuous to suggest that conjuring a Force storm is divorced of the user’s power. {The Jedi Path also says that “the creation of a hyperspace wormhole is a powerful use of the Force”}
That said, the objections raised with respect to Force storms ultimately ring hollow since no one {to my knowledge} has asserted that the Emperor is capable of defiling worlds with brute TK. All that is being asserted is that the Emperor is known to be capable of planetary-level destruction {fact} whereas most other Force adepts—Traya included—are not {fact}. Depending on how much prestige one ascribes to sheer feats—and I’m not seeking to adjudicate that issue—that is indicative of a titanic disparity with respect to strength and mastery.
So where does Traya register next to the Emperor? I also acknowledge the futility of ascribing exactitude to a comparison between them. These things can’t be quantified and the only time we ever are given exact standing between two characters is when it is assigned by Word of God {e.g., Lucas declaring Vader represents 80% of Sidious}. Furthermore, as I already mentioned, it depends greatly on how much prestige one ascribes to feats. There is an exponential disparity in peak performance: Traya has casually conquered half a dozen Sith assassins; the Emperor can raze worlds and devour starfleets. That said, the idea of a comparison to the Emperor flattering for Traya is pretty untenable. He enjoys a tremendous advantage with regards to feats and accolades—both of which outstrip Traya’s with respect to quality and quantity. He’s simply the more powerful, masterful, and accomplished Force user; the superior Sith.
But in our analyses it’s also important to take inventory of agendas. Zamp himself opened the door when he brazenly accused ChaosTheory123 of a polemic agenda with respect to Traya and KotOR 2 characters in general. Everyone in this thread has an established agenda to some degree or another. Zamp and Neph have been devout KotOR 2 apologists for years and their positions and arguments reflect that—“and it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.”
Other notes:
[list]
[*]The Byss Project supplies the Emperor with an energy pool for alchemical experiments; nowhere is that energy remotely suggested to be involved with the creation of Force storms—especially when Sidious is known to have triggered them far from the planet {e.g. the Battle of Da Soocha V}.
[*]The drain utilized by Traya and Nihilus is not qualitatively different from that used by the ancient Sith. Chris Avellone went on-record some time ago saying that their technique actually originated with the ancient Sith, who wisely eschewed frequent use of it for precisely the fact that it would sublimate their personalities a la Nihilus.
[*]Neph and Zamp. should reacquaint themselves with the No Limits Fallacy before again appealing to the omnipotence of the KotOR 2 drain.
[/list]
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Z., you seem very adamant to establish that Traya is a challenge for someone like Sidious. Are you suggesting that she is as or more powerful than the Emperor?
What is up with you and being wildly off base in this topic? Zam said that he doesn't find a comparison between her and Dooku unreasonable and at most that she could successfully flee from Sidious. You're clearly deeply offended by the assertions made in this thread and it's affecting your comprehension. Calm down and actually read what people are saying.
Originally posted by Nephthys
What is up with you and being wildly off base in this topic? Zam said that he doesn't find a comparison between her and Dooku unreasonable and at most that she could successfully flee from Sidious. You're clearly deeply offended by the assertions made in this thread and it's affecting your comprehension. Calm down and actually read what people are saying.
Oh Good Lord. I asked Zamp that question as to clarify any insinuations or implications I may have misread rather than brazenly accuse him of something he doesn't believe.
If you weren't so eager to mock me and Sidious, you'd have gathered that. I'm going to ask you again to please stop. It's disrespectful as hell.