Who can stop 2 DE Sidiouses?

Originally posted by Arhael
So... we ignore DE? No, thank you.

If you want Star Wars to be internally consistent then you do have to read between the lines somewhat in DE and not take it too seriously just like the writers did. On the other hand you could throw out about 30ish of the novels in order to make it so no one is anywhere near Luke in power level after DE. Do either one idc just be internally consistent.

Originally posted by Stigma
No, we just ignore certain aspects of certain sources. Other aspects of other sources we embrace. 👆
Who tells us what's ok and what's not...that's the real question 😉

Well said

@zEniX

You will find few allies with your position in ranking matters. Many people continue to believe in traditional rankings of the mythos characters in the context of power. New content does nothing to instill second thought in them.

As an example, Revan single-handedly send an entire Strike Team of powerful Force-users (some among them with very impressive resume) with a wave of energy in a confrontation. Raw power of this magnitude is rarely witnessed in combat situations in the mythos; even Son does not have telekinetic showing on this level in combat situation. However, for some, Revan remains < Yoda because older sources hyped Yoda as being the most powerful Jedi. Luke escapes this imposition by virtue of existence in later eras.

Another example is of Lord Nyax who managed to fight the trio of Luke, Mara and Tahiri for a long time. Luke, as of this time, had become very powerful in the ways of the Force. Still, Nyax's powers proved to be too much for Luke to cope with single-handedly. The novel even implies that Nyax was stronger then any Jedi of his era. So Nyax > Sidious (DE)? Perhaps.

In addition, Lord Krayt demonstrated parity with Luke in a confrontation against Abeloth. But many fans continue to believe that Luke is much stronger then Krayt.

You can do the math now that how messed-up are the ranking-related matters of the mythos.

I totally agree which is why it is fundamentally impossible to take all cannon unfiltered. It ends up being self contradictory.

Krayt's battles in the Legacy Era show him decidedly inferior to Luke. And ultimately inferior to Cade. If he was temporarily fighting Aboleth, it is logical to think he was just amped for some reason. Much like Vestara and Ben.

So you have conflicting sources and your conclusion is to invent the idea that Krayt was somehow magically amped off screen? huh.

They dies at #4 and 5.

A temporary amp makes more sense then the idea Krayt just got significantly weaker over time.

Because Abolelth Krayt>Legacy Krayt/Reborn Krayt.

If they wanted him amped in FOTJ they likely would have said so. Also I dispute the idea that 2 cannon sources disagreeing is licence to actually invent cannon that explicitly wasn't there. More to the point the context of FOTJ is clearly trying to set Kryat up as Luke's Rival. In addition I would say its possible that his Vong implants might have made him weaker over time. Either decide the first or latest cannon version is correct or accept that he got weaker over time.

...*shrug*

Getting weaker over time is fine with me, I just wanted to give him some credit.

Many people surpassed DE Sidious, Caedus, Kryat, Revan, Vitiate, Nyax, etc.

Sidious was powerful during his time of creation, but was far surpassed by others as the Starwars literature matured.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Many people surpassed DE Sidious, Caedus, Kryat, Revan, Vitiate, Nyax, etc.

Sidious was powerful during his time of creation, but was far surpassed by others as the Starwars literature matured.

Ok

Let's say for sake of argument his feats have been surpassed

This is kind of where powerscaling swoops in to save the day.

Per quotation from the New Essentials Chronology, Sidious is definitively considered the strongest Sith Lord in history

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
Source: The New Essential Chronology

^That can be found in any decent respect thread for Sidious

His creation of shit like Force Storms further cements his placement as far as DE is concerned.

Sure, the power the Nathema ritual granted Vitiate is above most anything Sidious accomplished conventionally featwise as far as raw useable power goes until DE (the rest of you can try to rebuke this sentiment, but given the metric [sub-atomically ripping apart all carbon life?] and mindset I measure shit by? You're not going to be particularly successful), but powerscaling takes care of it when canon source material spells out the in story hierarchy (or would you claim Freeza > Cell given Cell's conventional feats compared to Freeza's are kind of ass?)

You're free to try arguing for anything after Sidious lifetime as being stronger, given that above quote doesn't actually cover his ass contextually after the time of RotS, but you're unlikely to find feats to support it as far as I've been lead to believe.

No one would surpass DE Sidious with his powers as stated unless you're basically talking Celestials.

Personally I throw DE out as a power reference for reasons already stated above. This allows for Luke to only really have passed Sidious in power at around when FOTJ started. So that would make Sidious > Caedus Kryat by slim margins.

Vitiate is problematic because his power discription doesn't match at all his displays of power in game (cannon broke down there as well I guess).

Nyax is a problem simply because based on G.L. saying Luke = Anakin = GOAT for force potential for a Jedi or Sith. If Nyrax can basically go toe to toe with Luke Mara and Tahiri for a long time that would likely break cannon again. Unless, that is, you think Luke wasn't really all that in control of his powers by the Vong war.

Originally posted by zEniX
No one would surpass DE Sidious with his powers as stated unless you're basically talking Celestials.

Luke eventually does become his better, just couldn't tell you exactly when.

Personally I throw DE out as a power reference for reasons already stated above. This allows for Luke to only really have passed Sidious in power at around when FOTJ started. So that would make Sidious > Caedus Kryat by slim margins.

You're on an EU vs debate board, get used to keeping DE Sidious in mind, your personal bias has no real relevance.

Vitiate is problematic because his power discription doesn't match at all his displays of power in game (cannon broke down there as well I guess).

There's no problem, Marvel and DC fans have to reconcile much worse issues than any Star Wars EU fan ever will.

Shit, like I said, Dragon Ball's just as inconsistent. Literally 4 actual feats that hit moon level or above in the franchise. Next you have a few that hit country/continental. The rest are city level junk and much below.

Just smile and nod, this hobby isn't worth overthinking about or trying to rationalize.

Nyax is a problem simply because based on G.L. saying Luke = Anakin = GOAT for force potential for a Jedi or Sith. If Nyrax can basically go toe to toe with Luke Mara and Tahiri for a long time that would likely break cannon again. Unless, that is, you think Luke wasn't really all that in control of his powers by the Vong war.

Honestly?

Its either this or comic book like character jobbering.

Wouldn't know for sure, given I've never bothered to read material for that era, but those 2 are my best guess for the supposed incongruity.

Bear in mind though? Lucas' statement only refer to Luke and Anakin's potential.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
You're on an EU vs debate board, get used to keeping DE Sidious in mind, your personal bias has no real relevance.

The repercussions of DE Sidious contradict way too much of the rest of the cannon. Unless you can address the problems I mentioned with DE Sidious earlier in this thread I won't be keeping him in mind. If you want to address the problems I mentioned great, if not leave me to my heretical opinions.

There's no problem, Marvel and DC fans have to reconcile much worse issues than any Star Wars EU fan ever will.

This is not a valid argument for Vitiate not being a problem.

Just smile and nod, this hobby isn't worth overthinking about or trying to rationalize.

I enjoy over thinking it and taking it somewhat seriously, oddly it provides a nice stress relief from college. I'm probably somewhat crazy and I will struggle over subjective Star Wars stuff to a bizarre degree.

I really don't need to address anything. The feats happened, you're only letting your bias dictate whether or not they fit into EU canon. You're free to your subjective opinion, just keep in mind that as far as critical analysis in threads like these go? Your words fall on deaf ears.

Given hypocrisy is the greatest sin you can commit in this hobby? As far as cross-fictional analysis is concerned? Yeah, me griping over the larger issues of Marvel and DC for sake of consistent judgement is really all I need to reconcile with Vitiate. I'm not looking for conservation of energy to be preserved in this hobby, it generally doesn't exist.

Have fun with that then, just keep in mind that as far as board standards go, DE Sidious is in for most places, and communal opinions aren't really liable to change.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
I really don't need to address anything. The feats happened, you're only letting your bias dictate whether or not they fit into EU canon.

So in the hypothetical that Star Wars published two new source books tomorrow and one stated Luke is more than anyone else in the universe and the other book said Sidious was more powerful than anyone else in the universe. You are telling me, that you would say both are cannon and there is no contradiction?
This is no different than claiming that both can't be cannon just on a more subtle point.

P.S. Please don't be the cliche guy who just says to me that I don't understand and then fail to address the argument.

Originally posted by zEniX
If you want Star Wars to be internally consistent then you do have to read between the lines somewhat in DE and not take it too seriously just like the writers did. On the other hand you could throw out about 30ish of the novels in order to make it so no one is anywhere near Luke in power level after DE. Do either one idc just be internally consistent.

DE Luke is at the height of his power because he wasn't afraid of using Force heavily. Post DE Luke was more laid back although he still demonstrated himself occasionally, e.g: casually defeating 5 cortosis armored Jensarai.

We have Kueller. Luke's ex student who could feed on death on planetary level. Still to make fight fair Luke got his leg broken prior to fight.

Towards NJO Luke was so out of shape that he even got exhausted after a short fight with three Vong. But as the war went on he quickly got back into shape and killed far more Vongs in a single combat without getting tired.

Yes, it is hard to find a worthy opponent for Luke after he defeated Sidious. Nevertheless authors did. In NJO they introduced Lord Nyax, who was 3 meter giant with 8 lightsabers and immensely powerful in the Force.

In the Final of NJO they introduced Slayers. Single Slayer defeated Kyp Durron. Luke, Jacen and Jaina faced 24 Slayers in a single combat.

Then we have Dark Nest. In first book unarmed Luke killed Welk with his own lightsaber. Welk was empowered by killiks and even then Luke could simply Force choke him but chose not to.

Then we have Unu'thul and Lomi Plo. Lomi used Luke's doubts against him. She was invisible to his eyes and was able to Force drain him and even his lightsaber. Both Thul and Lomi were empowered by thousands killiks. But ones Luke cleared all doubts, he defeated both of them in his typical bad ass manner.

Then we have Lumiya. In first fight she was shielding with hostages. Then Luke got distracted by Alima, which allowed Lumiya to badly wound him, even then he won that fight. In their second encounter Luke stopped fighting her and they exchanged hand touches... In third fight Luke confidently defeated her even without the need of a shoto to counter her lightwhip. Again bad ass.

Then we have Caedus. Who else would be a better challenge than own blood?

Then we have Lost Tribe of the Sith. Non of them were worthy to challenge him, so they were taking him on in numbers. At one point completely exhausted Luke was able to surive attacks of 24 Sith.

Finally we have Abeloth. She was capable to defeat Son or Daughter 1 on 1. And guess what, Luke was able to defeat her even in 1 on 1 fight.

As you can see Luke is as bad ass as he was in DE. He got plenty of worthy opponents and struggled either due to unfavorable circumstances or because his opponents were just that good.

DE is exaggerated but it doesn't make Luke defeating Sidious any less legit. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Arhael
DE Luke is at the height of his power because he wasn't afraid of using Force heavily. .

You are contradicted by g cannon.

"Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

Luke only stopped using his power in certain ways because he realized that using his powers in that way would to be using the dark side.

Luke never stopped growing in power, by the time he faced Caedus he had far surpassed his DE levels.

DE Sidious was an early benchmark for Luke to pass, every bench mark post of DE Sidious had far surpassed Sidious due to Luke growing in power every time he passed a benchmark.

Caedus was far beyond DE Sidious in raw power, martial ability, and combat ability. DE sidious primary strengths lied in his cunning, subtle manipulation, and sorcery. In a one versus one fight to the death there are many who would kill DE sidious outright.

3.0 Revan, Nihilus, and Vitiate have combat feats that surpass anything DE Sidious has ever done. Caedus and Luke are on an entirely superior level to Sidious as well, the fact is that DE Sidious was an early benchmark and nothing more.

With powerscaling (which is something, that is necessary to use here) Nihilus isn't that strong. It's actually quite possible, that he was below Kreia and Revan.