Meetra Surik vs Darth Zannah (sabers only)

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's not a valid point. That's not how Star Wars fights works my friend. You can't put a number on a guy and deem it their power.

Why not? Sure it doesn't guarantee a person with more power will win, ie Luke vs. Abeloth where a number is literally stated that she has a dozen times Luke's power and Luke still wins. However, if we start arguing on the basis of luck good fortune and the will of the force then why argue at all? Then it is purely opinion with nothing to back it up which can't be negated by a convenient plot device.

You are including factors like strengths/weakness, battle mindsets, differences in forms, specific powers overcoming others, etc etc.

Because it is based on nothing but your opinion? It also disregard variables that lean one way or the other. Luke slash never defeated Abeloth alone.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You are including factors like strengths/weakness, battle mindsets, differences in forms, specific powers overcoming others, etc etc.

Which only would apply to particular fights between individuals. The numbers I'm putting up are the initial conditions of the fight based roughly on force powers and general lightsaber levels.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because it is based on nothing but your opinion? It also disregard variables that lean one way or the other. Luke slash never defeated Abeloth alone.

Quite true Luke never did nor would he be like to be able to. Why? Basically because Abeloth just has too much raw power. You throw in enough raw power and the facters Darth Ant is talking about fall away. If a battle thread says Kyle Katan vs. Luke people do not analyze the styles weaknesses etc. they just say Luke curb stomps Kyle.
You are also quite right the numbers are merely my opinion, feel free to post what numbers you think are valid and do the math yourself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I know.

However, she lacked stamina and power to go toe-to-toe with Bane for long in martial aspects of combat, therefore her realization that she won't last long in this manner.

Wrong. Zannah's stamina and power were fine. When she used her full defensive abilities she more than adequately blocked a full on assault from Bane. Bane had to change tactics from pure offense to a more unpredictable, tactical style after she did this because he recognised that he wouldn't get through her defense even if he went all out on her. Only after she trips on the grave and Bane injures her by stomping on her does Zannah make the estimation that she wouldn't last. Because she's injured, not because she was outmatched in stamina or power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Powerful and well-trained Force-users are extremely fast by human standards. For them, a fraction worth of change can mean the difference between life and death in combat situations against some foes.

Bane also had a problem with his left hand.

Zannah notes during their duel that Bane is still faster than she could have imagined. Which strongly suggests that Bane was still faster than he had been in RoT, despite diminishing by a miniscule amount from his peak (which would therefore be after RoT at some point). Also I highly doubt it's as significant as you say. The merest fraction slower than he had once been is a tiny difference, utterly insignificant. And even then Bane is far faster than anything Meetra has shown.

Which didn't impact him in his duels.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton attacked Jedi Master Hulis with a dueling move so fast that he generated 19 after-images in the process. However, Hulis turned out to be an exceptionally skilled swordsman and successfully countered Thanaton's attack. In contrast, Thanation casually dismissed Hulis's apprentice (a different event).

Bane's speed feat is really impressive but not an extraordinary one, and it doesn't proves that he can contend with virtually everybody in martial aspects of combat in the mythos. Zannah's ability to duel with Bane is another reminder of Bane's limitations. However, Bane is officially superior duelist then Zannah and both of the statements that I quoted from a novel reiterate the fact that Bane would slaughter Zannah in a strictly martial duel.

I really admire Bane and Zannah at personal capacity but I also see their limitations.

LOL. Thanaton was spinning his double-bladed lightsaber in a circle. That's utterly unimpressive in terms of speed and utterly incomparable to Bane individually moving his arms for each strike and attacking so fast that he appears to be wielding a dozen sabers.

No, it's pretty damn extraordinary. What's Meetra done that compares? Nothing at all. Zannah's ability to hold off that kind of speed indicates how impressive her defense is, even halfway through her training. Bane would slaughter the Zannah in RoT, who was still just an apprentice, yes. But by DoE she was capable of handling him in a strict duel. Your conclusion is completely without merit.

You should try seeing Meetra's as well. You have a nasty habit of lecturing people on seeing the limitations of their characters while being blind to those of your own.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nobody have flawless resume in the mythos. 😉

Even Luke and Sidious don't have flawless resume.

Bane would treat Meetra in the exact same manner Nyriss did.

Zannah's stamina and power were fine. When she used her full defensive abilities she more than adequately blocked a full on assault from Bane. Bane had to change tactics from pure offense to a more unpredictable, tactical style after she did this because he recognised that he wouldn't get through her defense even if he went all out on her.

Zannah also recognizes that if he hadn't switched tactics, or if he decided to switch back, she'd be at a major disadvantage, though.

You should try seeing Meetra's as well. You have a nasty habit of lecturing people on seeing the limitations of their characters while being blind to those of your own.

:up

Bane would treat Meetra in the exact same manner Nyriss did.

👆 More or less this, though this time there wouldn't be a nexus involved, which helps somewhat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane would treat Meetra in the exact same manner Nyriss did.

Right, Meetra is weak. You have to be looser, like Nihilus or Sion to be beaten by her.

Sion is a bit of a loser, yes.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Zannah also recognizes that if he hadn't switched tactics, or if he decided to switch back, she'd be at a major disadvantage, though.

Sure, if he continued to come at her fully she'd have to fully defend herself and couldn't build up the power for her sorcery. Who'd win if he did that I'm not sure. I'm not seeing that as a disadvantage though.

Sion loses to Atton. No excuse.

Originally posted by zEniX

You are also quite right the numbers are merely my opinion, feel free to post what numbers you think are valid and do the math yourself.

Why so much writing. >_<

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sarro Xaj has no feats off of Battle Meditation that compares to Meetra Surik's feats.

Which doesn't matter since Zannah fought him while he was under Battle Meditation so it counts when talking about him compared to Zannah.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Meetra Surik took on Darth Sion in the second most powerful nexus in the galaxy and dominated him utterly over four engagements, he was repeatedly replenishing his strength whilst she was weak and getting more tired.

Meetra Surik took on Atris a master of lightsaber combat with full mastery over Juyo and defeated her in lightsaber combat, despite Atris' holocron amplification and FLS attacks. This implies great agility and speed on Surik's part.

Meetra Surik with barely any re-training took down the five Handmaidens simultaneously and they marvelled at her combat prowess. After training with the Exile, Brianna accomplishes the same feat in seconds.

Meetra Surik took internal amplifications such as Force Valor to it's highest possible degree so she very likely is faster than Sarro Xaj.

Darth Traya is incredibly quick and could dodge point-blank lightsaber strikes with ease. Meetra Surik defeated her.

Vias Marr, the shadow hand of Darth Nihilus and top assassin could not defeat Surik despite Surik not having a lightsaber and this happened repeatedly.

Nothing you mentioned is beyond what Zannah is also capable of. You don't think Zannah could also beat Traya, Atris, Visas and Sion as well? Chumps all. At least in terms of dueling. Also I'm not seeing why Meetra would be faster than Sarro merely because she has Force Enlightenment. And DoE Zannah is faster than Sarro as well, so it doesn't matter.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Surik is quite evidently a Jedi Guardian as displayed in the manner of her victories, her blade's color and perhaps most important is the fact she was an apprentice of Kavar before the war and followed his example as stated in the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide. If the Exile was not a Guardian then Kavar states that he wanted to take you as his apprentice and train you as a Guardian because you were so skilled.

Later in the game Kavar himself teaches you a form and says you are already mastering it, this is the same Master Kavar that was famous across the galaxy, particularly among the Mandalorians for his martial prowess and blade mastery. One must wonder how skilled Kavar was considering that Atris, the historian, was a master of lightsaber combat herself.

Thus as the evidence suggests she has her own mastery over all lightsaber forms as the Jedi Council masters have stated if Guardian is chosen.

So Meetra is highly skilled and a saber master. Awesome. I'm sure Zannah and Bane tremble before her. Any Jedi can master a lightsaber form, the degree to which they wield it is the important part. Kas'im was a far superior saber master than Meetra ever was and had utterly perfected all the forms. Meetra's nebulous grasp over these forms doesn't confer her superiority to Zannah and still gives her no way of penetrating her defense on top of Zannah's superior strength, speed and force power. Regardless, your point is based off of assumptions, gameplay mechanics and extrapolations instead of concrete evidence.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Trayus Academy is stated to be a refuge from Malachor V's greatest dangers I believe in the Prima Guide.

You mean Sith? No shit.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Sith Assasins were accompanied by many Sith Marauders, Sith Lords, Sith Masters and Elite Sith Troopers. Legions of elite Sith as the Prima Guide dictates.

I can't tell what the heck this is in response to or what the exact relevance is. Are you trying to establish numbers? Cuz I'm not seeing a hundred Sith in that.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Traya had full knowledge of the Lightsaber forms, given that her being Arren Kae is blatantly obvious then she was clearly a great warrior with immense skill throughout the Mando War. She has clear martial prowess and considering the Sourcebooks state kinetic lightsaber combat requires a master of saber combat and mastery of telekinesis to implement then her ability is undouted.

What is further impressive is that Traya simply states the Jedi Exile has as much knowledge and skill of combat as she does once training with Visas Marr ends.

Traya is also a one-armed old woman and she wouldn't remotely compare to Bane even in the Mando Wars if she was Kae. And I believe that second paragraph is cut content?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Precognition is obviously helpful, the only meaningless statements here are you asinine dismissals of the entire technique simply to suit your argument.

I've repeatedly asked you to elaborate on how helpful it would be and you seem stumped as to the practical benefit of it. Besides which just because Meetra has battle precog doesn't mean it's a significant advantage or suggestive of her abilities with it. Remember that theres huge variations in that techniques effectiveness.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Bane doesn't come close to Darth Vader as a duelist, whether based on hype or accomplishments.

Bane would beat the shit out of Vader's clunky crippled ass.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The official Prima Guide states you have to fight through a legion of elite Sith before reaching Darth Sion.

Do you have the quote? You seemed unsure of what the guide said earlier yet now you're stating it as fact. So I'd just like to check.

Originally posted by AncientPower
As proven earlier Zannah attempting to kill Bane, even once he had no weapon or his full strength was an imbecilic strategy on her part.

That's a little extreme. She was actually going to kill him eventually. Only the explosives saved him.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Atris had Sith Holocrons to draw strength from and was utilising both Force Lightning Storm attacks and Drain Life throughout the combat, but as the Campaign Guide states, Atris' pride was no match for the Exile's lightsaber prowess.

And Atris > Zannah + Bane fo sure! 👆

Also I'm pretty sure lightning storm and drain are, like, game mechanics? Is it actually stated she was using those?

Originally posted by AncientPower
What you have failed to prove is how Zannah even kills Meetra Surik, her offensive capabilities are severely lacking by comparison and the Exile has vastly superior feats of stamina and endurance and the precognitive ability to see any offence coming and capitalise on her lightsaber's weakness.

Similarly you've failed to prove the same. There's no way for Meetra to get through Zannah's defenses. And Zannah's big thing is stamina and her style is extensively based around minimising effort on her part and staying fresh. She also has far greater force reserves to call on than Meetra does. And Meetra doesn't have her companions here to leech energy from. So Zannah will comfortably outlast her. And Zannah's tactic is to wait until opponents are exhausted to attack, so any counterattack will be feeble indeed. And Zannah was able to counter a furious assault from Bane while on the ground after being viciously stomped and with broken ribs. She still repelled all of his strikes and successfully disengaged. So I highly doubt Meetra will be able to capitalise on anything when Bane couldn't capitalise on the perfect circumstances.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Meetra Surik has demonstrated the experience and reaction timing that allowed her to analyse her opponents and their weaknesses in half a second before killing them all seconds later. A feat that impressed Scourge greatly. That elongated hilt, stated to be even longer than the norm for saberstaffs is a huge weak point in combat. Capitalise on that and half of Zannah's defensive capability is shot.

Funny how absolutely no-one ever even attempted to go for Zannah's hilt. Some weakness. Zannah can easily evade that with a minor movement to the side or by slightly angling herself. And Meetra's reaction time is nothing on Zannah's, who outstrips lightning in that regard and is easily able to visually track a bolt in motion. Zannah was also able to analyse opponents in mere moments and identify their weaknesses.

"Trayus Academy is the home of those Jedi who have succumbed the to dark side taint of Malachor V. To reach the structure's core, where Darth Sion and Kreia await, [the Exile] must face a legion of elite Sith single-handedly."

Edit: And: She brushes aside any offer you make to show mercy or lead her to redemption, and there's no choice but to fight for your life... As a former member of the Jedi Council, Darth Traya is a master of lightsaber combat. In addition, she commands an array of potent dark side powers like Drain Life and Force Storm.

Thanks.

"Darth Traya" Refers to Atris btw, as she took the mantle of Traya. It describes the confrontation on Telos.

Yeah, Ant said.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Funny how absolutely no-one ever even attempted to go for Zannah's hilt. Some weakness. Zannah can easily evade that with a minor movement to the side or by slightly angling herself. And Meetra's reaction time is nothing on Zannah's, who outstrips lightning in that regard and is easily able to visually track a bolt in motion. Zannah was also able to analyse opponents in mere moments and identify their weaknesses.

Sarro Xaj having elevated combat to it's highest form, having several accolades to his speed strength and skill even without BM, and being clearly insanely familiar with the saberstaff, attacking Zannah from several unpredictable angles while amped up on BM. (before Zannah's prime)

Set Harth attacking from every conceivable angle in a relentless barrage.

Darth Bane assaulting her twice. The first time being before Zannah's prime, and the second time being when Bane had refined his technique to be far more unpredictable and when his fighting style involved prodding for weaknesses. Prior to either of these fights, Bane was already familiar with every move and maneuver that could be executed with a saberstaff.

In 3 of these 4 engagements, she was facing an opponent intimately familiar with a saberstaff. In 2 of these 4 engagements Zannah had not yet reached her prime, and in 2 of these 4 engagements she was facing Darth Bane, who is both the man who trained her, and is a greater offensive duelist than Meetra Surrik. In none of these engagements did Zannah's elongated hilt prove to be a weakness, which would make sense since Zannah completely mastered Soresu and tailored her defensive fighting style around her weapon.

👆 Neph

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why so much writing. >_<

Because it's their style of debate to be verbose? :hmm

Could be worse, the posts could be all fluff and about twice as long

Now those were always SO much fun to respond to...

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yes, between:

Sarro Xaj having elevated combat to it's highest form, having several accolades to his speed strength and skill even without BM, and being clearly insanely familiar with the saberstaff, attacking Zannah from several unpredictable angles while amped up on BM. (before Zannah's prime)

Set Harth attacking from every conceivable angle in a relentless barrage.

Darth Bane assaulting her twice. The first time being before Zannah's prime, and the second time being when Bane had refined his technique to be far more unpredictable and when his fighting style involved prodding for weaknesses. Prior to either of these fights, Bane was already familiar with every move and maneuver that could be executed with a saberstaff.

In 3 of these 4 engagements, she was facing an opponent intimately familiar with a saberstaff. In 2 of these 4 engagements Zannah had not yet reached her prime, and in 2 of these 4 engagements she was facing Darth Bane, who is both the man who trained her, and is a greater offensive duelist than Meetra Surrik. In none of these engagements did Zannah's elongated hilt prove to be a weakness, which would make sense since Zannah completely mastered Soresu and tailored her defensive fighting style around her weapon.

👆 Neph

All of this and the Neph part too. 👆

Thought I'd fill in for dear AP and trash Neph for a bit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]Why so much writing. >_<

Nothing you mentioned is beyond what Zannah is also capable of. You don't think Zannah could also beat Traya, Atris, Visas and Sion as well? Chumps all. At least in terms of dueling. Also I'm not seeing why Meetra would be faster than Sarro merely because she has Force Enlightenment. And DoE Zannah is faster than Sarro as well, so it doesn't matter.

So Meetra is highly skilled and a saber master. Awesome. I'm sure Zannah and Bane tremble before her. Any Jedi can master a lightsaber form, the degree to which they wield it is the important part. Kas'im was a far superior saber master than Meetra ever was and had utterly perfected all the forms. Meetra's nebulous grasp over these forms doesn't confer her superiority to Zannah and still gives her no way of penetrating her defense on top of Zannah's superior strength, speed and force power. Regardless, your point is based off of assumptions, gameplay mechanics and extrapolations instead of concrete evidence.

In fact, Meetra, just like Kas'im, has an incredible amount of knowledge and styles to use. Should she fail with any form she may switch, should she fail with a single blade, out comes two. She incorporates Echani strikes and general battle precognition into combat, so Zannah's already frankly laughable offense becomes even worse.

I've repeatedly asked you to elaborate on how helpful it would be and you seem stumped as to the practical benefit of it. Besides which just because Meetra has battle precog doesn't mean it's a significant advantage or suggestive of her abilities with it. Remember that theres huge variations in that techniques effectiveness.

Bane would beat the shit out of Vader's clunky crippled ass.

*Massive Snip of stuff I already replied to*

Similarly you've failed to prove the same. There's no way for Meetra to get through Zannah's defenses. And Zannah's big thing is stamina and her style is extensively based around minimising effort on her part and staying fresh. She also has far greater force reserves to call on than Meetra does. And Meetra doesn't have her companions here to leech energy from. So Zannah will comfortably outlast her. And Zannah's tactic is to wait until opponents are exhausted to attack, so any counterattack will be feeble indeed. And Zannah was able to counter a furious assault from Bane while on the ground after being viciously stomped and with broken ribs. She still repelled all of his strikes and successfully disengaged. So I highly doubt Meetra will be able to capitalise on anything when Bane couldn't capitalise on the perfect circumstances.

No but sure, Zannah lasting a semi decent amount of time in a single duel totally compares. 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yes, between:

Sarro Xaj having elevated combat to it's highest form, having several accolades to his speed strength and skill even without BM, and being clearly insanely familiar with the saberstaff, attacking Zannah from several unpredictable angles while amped up on BM. (before Zannah's prime)

Set Harth attacking from every conceivable angle in a relentless barrage.

Darth Bane assaulting her twice. The first time being before Zannah's prime, and the second time being when Bane had refined his technique to be far more unpredictable and when his fighting style involved prodding for weaknesses. Prior to either of these fights, Bane was already familiar with every move and maneuver that could be executed with a saberstaff.

In 3 of these 4 engagements, she was facing an opponent intimately familiar with a saberstaff. In 2 of these 4 engagements Zannah had not yet reached her prime, and in 2 of these 4 engagements she was facing Darth Bane, who is both the man who trained her, and is a greater offensive duelist than Meetra Surrik. In none of these engagements did Zannah's elongated hilt prove to be a weakness, which would make sense since Zannah completely mastered Soresu and tailored her defensive fighting style around her weapon.

👆 Neph

And because of the spinning of her blades, to actually hit the hilt you'd need to use a thrust attack otherwise the blade would be pushed aside by her defense. Thrusts are generally telegraphed with a wind up, making Zannah's job easier.

Is Neph saying a character who has insane endurance feats will be winded down by Zannah spinning her lightsaber in a circle again?