Originally posted by Delta1938
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20speed/FTL%20Feats/Space%20FlightThere's a few FTL examples from Superman. And those are just space flight. And not all of them. And being Diana's speed equal? Being shown to be Black Adam's/Captain Marvel's speed equal? Superman fighting them doesn't mean they were fighting at super speed. I don't even know of a straight-up fight they've had where speed was specified. Abhi posted Supes making Jay look like a statue. Superman also caught-up to an amped Jay when Jay temporarily stopped him with a speed steal, meaning he had to be faster than the amped Jay. And more. There's too many examples of Superman being FTL to buy your argument.
hmm, supes and marvel have been noted time and again 9 in the post crisis era) to be equals in every category just as one example in action 768
that and when one of them is not getting the drop on the other/ possessed by eclipso, they always fight evenly.
statements and fights are hardly conclusive and 90% of the time , stink of PIS( think Slade vs Wally) , but when they are consistently backed by feats you start to stand and notice
example- jay and supes race roughly evenly going all out, black adam does the same with jay. diana manages to keep up with jesse , supes does the same in electric blue form. supes says hes slower than light, jay says the same
so when statements , fights AND feats back it up, id argue my assessment of their speeds is correct
when has supes made jay look like a statue? issue no? can you show me the link/ scan please?
jay was..... amped. based. on . what.
Your argument rests on assuming the explosion taking LESS time to happen means he was slower than the scene showed.
No... thats not my assumption at all. whether the explosion took less time, or superman failed to react in time, is the focal issue here, given his sentence construction
in case its still not clear, im arguing for the latter, certainly his phrasing lends reasonabe doubt/ credence to my argument given his career
Originally posted by The Gray GhostYou didn't made anything clear kid.
i think i already made it clear, but again
1. its not from any monthly title, but a sequel to what was categorically an elseworlds story at the timeAnd which featured regular character and the explanation to how it could happen aka Hypertime. Look it up.
2. Superman meets Gog for the first time in his own monthly later, with no reference to this, and a different origin tale for GogThat's a different Gog. Superman met Zod for the first time in Last Son too. Does that mean "For Tomorrow" "OWAW" and all those stories are non canon?
3. Superman meets Kc supes in Thy Kingdom Come for the first time in a canon story with neither referencing this story arc, or the outcome of this story where the events of kingdom come never even came to pass by the end of it all, as opposed to the story in jsaSorry, but that's BS. That's Earth-22, a different universe. It resembles Kingdome Come, but isn't actually the same story. Kingdome Come is an alternate future of main DCU and was repeatedly shown as such in JSA and Justice League Generation Lost. And not mentioning it doesn't makes it non canon.
Oh im sorry. twisting isnt the correct word. more like speculating about vague STATEMENTS and interpreting them to best suit your character.That's not the right word either. Its taking a statement at its face value.
which is actually the same as twistingSo everything Superman said was wrong there and he was just throwing nanoseconds for shits and giggles?
talking about stuff like " im a nanosecond ahead of you, " which comes across more as a figure of speech than anything, doesnt particularly seem a conclusive assessment of supermans speed at all to me, im afraidThat's again a rather odd way of dismissing a feat. But do carry on, I'm enjoying this train-wreck.
agree to disagree on these sort of featsOk? It only makes you wrong though.
something like the hal jordan one is a far better and clear cut feat( and also vastly inconsistent with any of his speed showings at that time, or indeed throughout his career)Haha, sure thing buddy.
i dont remember him saying that. issue no?Action Comics 846.
in any case this comes after an explicit retcon to the point of a new origin story , the return of the legion , superboy and various silver age elements and all the previous kandors being retconned to being imitations based on the originalAnd the same happened with Kingdome Come and Earth 22. So, why the double standard?
supermans history was altered after infinite crisis and though far be it for me to waive away all the stuff preceeding this, sure he might not immediately recognise a Zod with a completely different origin, especially given the unique characteristics of each version, at least two of whom were alt universe versionsSame with Earth 22 Superman, who is not the original KC Superman BTW. Its very confusing as even JSA issue mentions Gog seeing a future where Gog had killed various Supemen.
hey i checked their first meeting again. where does he say hes never heard of zod?Action Comics 846.
There was no retcon between the kingdom and gogs first canon appearance. the version of the story told in kingdom completely differs from the one in jsa, both of which branch off from the original kingdom come. and heck i dont recall a single reference to kingdom in a canon comic as opposed to the jsa storylineOh really? Here Superman fights KC Superman in a canon comic.
Wait, Superman/Batman is non canon too?
And here is the reference to The Kingdom.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/18.jpg
DC one million also references The Kingdom.
Wait, DC one million is non canon too?
see the difference between the two now?
No?
It didnt happen "earlier". show me the scan that says "it went off earlier"Superman said it would give him one nanosecond to take the kid to safety and it went off earlier than that.
the only thing that happened was superman admitting his timing being off, which could mean a lot of things from supes not being fast enough to the blast going off earlier. only one thing is clear, and that is that supes didnt do the job properlyBecause the boy released energy before a nanosecond. So?
which casts reasonable doubt to the validity of the feat, and makes it in my opinion not a " clean feat" if you will, certainly given his history of otherwise proclaiming himself to be slower than lightSo, it all boils down to dismissing the feat. I can show nearly every high herald claiming they are slower than light. Like Silver Surfer, so?
YesYou need more than that kid.
Not really noThat actually confirms it.
you can post scans of surfer /gladiator proclaiming themselves to be specifcally slower than light? go ahead, be my guestFor starters.
Want more?
because i can sure do the same for superman/ jay/ adam and /or wonder woman struggling to achieve lightspeed and in supes and jays case , specifically noting their own abiities to be slower than lightThat doesn't negates their actual speed feats which are beyond light speed. Its just inconsistency in the comics.
ive already made a longish post on this in this thread so im just going to say read my last postI read it. Its total bullshit.
Originally posted by abhilegend
False, he fainted due to the stress of time travel along with Superboy.
On foot. That's still faster than someone like Gladiator has ever ran.
And him speeding out of a time stop in Superman 73.
So where do you feel it says hes speeding through a time stop in that issue?
oh wait a minute , its the same effect produced as in superman 61, as noted in the issue itself!
superman 61 where superman heroically ...............got frozen in time along with everyone else till Waverider allowed him to move
thats a great example there youve decided to pick
So?
Mark Waid doesn't think anybody sans Flash is FTL. That's like thinking everyone in marvel is slower than lightspeed because Mark Gruenwald had Runner left in dust at lightspeed.
so your excuse is " man i hate this writer. why couldnt he have made my favr'it a FTL multiverse buster??!!".
brilliant. what about Dwayne McDuffie? Bryne? Steven Seagle? and these are just off the top of my head
face it pal, supes has been consistently written as being slower than light
Ironically, Superman Blue was explicitly FTL.And he was still slower than regular Superman.
Inside a black hole. Surfer thought he would be trapped inside one forever if not for shrinking into microverse. Heck, even Runner couldn't run out of one.
I don't know why you'd bring Jay in this. He would shit all over anyone not named Wally or Barry in feats.
Managing to think in nanoseconds, isnt particularly beyond someone like jay, who can push himself beyond lightspeed with great effort
the whole strategizing thing though comes across as somewhat dubious for someone who in his own words claims " im not FTL , only Wally is", and has to speed steal to achieve the same
Nanosecond reaction time and Superman made him look like a statue.[/ QUOTE]
Supes sure didnt make him " look like a statue" when he was busting a gut just to keep up with the dudeTalking about the arc where future geniuses specifically identtify Jay as the fastest man on earth in the absence of Wally, sure lends extra credibility to a random scan
[QUOTE]That's an odd way to lowball.
you are to put it bluntly, biased.
and saying that im lowballing someone by saying " they have LIGHTSPEED reflexes" is to put it mildly....an unnecessary reaction
Ran circles around Lightray in Superman Confidential.
That's some other odd way to lowball.
She herself admitted that Superman has greater raw speed than her.
That's taken as gospel when the writer committed that he was writing Superman less powerful than usual. And he blitzed Amazo with the combined speed of Flash, himself and Diana.
or: what has any of this (inconsistent) writing got anything to do with what im saying?
Other than Zoloman, wrong on all accounts.
Haha, go here and educate yourself.
Man....this does not look good..
Your opinion is sponsored by Pendaran?
Originally posted by The Gray Ghost
Ok heres the thing
im not going to check out that photobucket album. with all due respect, im talking about reaction speed and not travel speed.
Seems like you're changing things now that contradictory examples have been given.
Originally posted by The Gray Ghost
so if you have examples of reaction speed there, tell me, and ill check it out. otherwise sorry, but this just seems like a waste of time. obviously supes can travel at ftl speeds in space, its when hes asked to outrace light waves, break into a ship and rescue the hostages before the speed-of thought telepaths react, that he starts screaming " im not ftl"
One: Examples of his reaction time/time perceptions have already been posted, including the one you keep arguing is invalid. Two: There's examples both before and after that contradict his "slower than light" with Wally. Both travel and time perception/reaction time examples.
But here's something you missed, that Abhi already posted.
"--for a fraction of a nanosecond"
Originally posted by The Gray Ghost
hmm, supes and marvel have been noted time and again 9 in the post crisis era) to be equals in every category just as one example in action 768
I can't think of any lip service(or feats/showings) saying that Captain Marvel was equal to Superman in speed. Funny enough though, that very comic you cited, Superman kept-up with Freddy despite his speed being amped.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20speed/Miscellaneous/AmpedCM3
I don't take "Turned up to a MILLION!!" literally, but pretty clear that Freddy is much faster than normal, even with power sharing in consideration. Also, one of the few speed comparisons I've seen had Superman as faster.
"Not as quick" doesn't tell how much faster, and seems to be travel speed, but still saying Superman is faster. Also, Eclipso possessed Supes seemed to think he was far faster than Cap.
Shit talking/hyperbole? Perhaps. Seems worth mentioning though. And speaking of Eclipso possession.....
Originally posted by The Gray Ghost
that and when one of them is not getting the drop on the other/ possessed by eclipso, they always fight evenly.
If you're arguing it amps Superman, evidence doesn't support it, since Eclipso amps those by combining his energy with them. Something that doesn't work with Superman's solar energy. In fact, Eclipso Supes did poorly against Guy Gardner after getting solar matter dumped on him.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Captain%20Nazi%20exposure/Eclipso_Non-Amp
But I am digressing. Anyways, moving on.
Originally posted by The Gray Ghost
statements and fights are hardly conclusive and 90% of the time , stink of PIS( think Slade vs Wally) , but when they are consistently backed by feats you start to stand and notice
Kinda contradicting yourself here.
Originally posted by The Gray Ghost
example- jay and supes race roughly evenly going all out, black adam does the same with jay. diana manages to keep up with jesse , supes does the same in electric blue form. supes says hes slower than light, jay says the same
Check the whole race. Near the end, Jay speed steals from Superman, slowing him down and amping himself. Superman still closes the gap. Still loses a close race, but closing the gap with Jay amped would've meant he had to be faster than Jay.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20speed/Running/DC-FIRST
Originally posted by The Gray Ghost
so when statements , fights AND feats back it up, id argue my assessment of their speeds is correct
So since Superman has statements and feats putting him as faster than the Marvels, would you concede on the he's equal to the Marvels in speed claim?
Originally posted by The Gray Ghost
when has supes made jay look like a statue? issue no? can you show me the link/ scan please?
It was already posted, but here. Jay is under the Superman after image under Red Arrow(or whatever he was going by at the time). But since Superman is flying, I guess you'll call it a travel feat? Granted we don't know what speed he was going.
Originally posted by The Gray Ghost
jay was..... amped. based. on . what.
Speed stealing from Superman, but not in the immediate example above.
Originally posted by The Gray Ghost
No... thats not my assumption at all. whether the explosion took less time, or superman failed to react in time, is the focal issue here, given his sentence constructionin case its still not clear, im arguing for the latter, certainly his phrasing lends reasonabe doubt/ credence to my argument given his career
So basically you're arguing it's hyperbole because Superman was a little off?
Originally posted by Delta1938
**** YOU I DO WHAT I WANT!!! 😠 😠
😂 can you stop quoting that psycho for me please? I don't communicate or like seeing post from a guy that doesn't know how to be positive...especially when he is talking about me. Now stop quoting him before I take some 101 classes on how to hack into Xbox live acts and post vids on your acct with me destroying you in COD.
Originally posted by The Gray Ghost
So ....Barry didnt leave him in the dust after his return?
Professor Zoom had effected Barry, making Barry leaving him in the dust questionable as his normal capability, shit talking comment or not.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Professor_Zoom/REBIRTH/1-Barry-Max
Originally posted by carver9
😂 can you stop quoting that psycho for me please? I don't communicate or like seeing post from a guy that doesn't know how to be positive...especially when he is talking about me. Now stop quoting him before I take some 101 classes on how to hack into Xbox live acts and post vids on your acct with me destroying you in COD.
*****, please. We've never even played a game together on LIVE, let alone you "destroy" me. You accused me of avoiding you when we didn't even have any games in common!! Epic fail.
Originally posted by The Gray GhostAnd you are ignoring that it was specefically due to time travel that Superman fainted?
So you are going to ignore the bit where he notes superboy is moving at FTL speeds?
heh just answer this. when has any speedster in dc, any speedster at all actually moved through time without crossing the lightspeed barrier?The Ray.
the whole thing in zero hour with wally specifically needing to cross lightspeed to time travel, never happened then?Different writers take different opinion on that. Wally has gone way beyond lightspeed and didn't travel in time.
Where does gladiator come into this?Did I hit a nerve?
i sense you have.....issues. chill man, no need to be defensive
So where do you feel it says hes speeding through a time stop in that issue?Inconsistencies man, they happen in the comics all the time.
oh wait a minute , its the same effect produced as in superman 61, as noted in the issue itself!
superman 61 where superman heroically ...............got frozen in time along with everyone else till Waverider allowed him to moveAnd Superman 73, where he moved in a time freeze, despite Waverider doesn't wanting him to.
thats a great example there youve decided to pickA low showing doesn't negates a high showing kid.
so your excuse is " man i hate this writer. why couldnt he have made my favr'it a FTL multiverse buster??!!".No, simply that he doesn't writes anybody else than Flash as lightspeed.
brilliant. what about Dwayne McDuffie? Bryne? Steven Seagle? and these are just off the top of my headBoth Dwayne and Seagle wrote him achieving lightspeed or faster.
face it pal, supes has been consistently written as being slower than lightFace it pal, Superman regularly flies through the galaxy. How can he be slower than light and still fly across the galaxy or even solar system?
And his blast being FTL translates to his reactions being FTL, how?That's not his blast, that's Superman himself flying faster than light. Can you read something?
heck even thor can throw mjolnir at FTL speeds and then struggle in terms of actual reactions, vs loganThrowing something and actually flying faster than light are same now?
" Im going to talk about things that do not remotely translate to surfer specifically claiming hes slower than light after having claimed that i was going to post feats for the same"Wut? Why is the same principle not followed for surfer then? Did I hit a nerve?
Managing to think in nanoseconds, isnt particularly beyond someone like jay, who can push himself beyond lightspeed with great effortAnd here I thought Jay was some slowpoke.
the whole strategizing thing though comes across as somewhat dubious for someone who in his own words claims " im not FTL , only Wally is", and has to speed steal to achieve the sameHaha, now every feat is dubious which happens to destroy your argument. That's wally talking dude.
And therein lies the problem. im not trying to lowball or anything. im just as much of a fan as you are.I seriously doubt it.
the difference is im actually debating this based on feats, while youre flaring up in self defence at the very thought of someone questioning supermans abilities[quote] No, you are using low showings and statements to negate actual showings. That's simply trolling.And you aren't?[quote]you are to put it bluntly, biased.
and saying that im lowballing someone by saying " they have LIGHTSPEED reflexes" is to put it mildly....an unnecessary reactionWhen thy have literally dozen of examples and you're solely using one statement to negate them all? Yes, you are lowballing.
The dubiously canon story that contradicts just to name one thing, superman vol 2 3 and all the legends stuff?Its called a retcon dude. Superman himself claimed he was faster than Lightray in Doomsday wars.
Sigh...not lowballingMake it a mantra.
Hmm ....where supes admitted she had better reactions? really? you actually want to count that rubbish?He didn't. Bruce did. And later Batman said Superman's reflexes are faster in Trinity.
Just so it isnt still clear, i was actually claiming supes was faster but diana had comparable featsNo, she doesn't.
And was one of the first to go down.What does that has to do with anything? Amazo blasted him with red sunlight.
and diana outlasted him by quite some distance. and hal blew a hole through amazo. and even batman contributedWhat does all that has to do with speed?
or: what has any of this (inconsistent) writing got anything to do with what im saying?That you are ****ing wrong?
So ....Barry didnt leave him in the dust after his return?Superman didn't raced him and caught him in Superman 709?
wally didnt outrace Hv with a smile?Superman didn't catch an out of control Wally in JLA Classified and Titans 10?
Seriously.... wait a second . are you the guy who created all those respect threads claiming superman could tank multiversal attacks and all?No.
Man....this does not look good..For you? Sure.
Actually my opinion is my own based on years of reading superman comicsYeah, you are DEFINITELY from CBR.
but carry on with your imaginary agenda if it pleases you
