Ivan Drago vs Apollo from Rocky II

Originally posted by Mindset
Actually, no.

What kept being stressed was that Rocky was too far past him prime to beat him, just like Apollo was.

Originally posted by Kotor3
You are starting to sound like Silent Master. You did not answer one of my questions. The only one ignoring anything is you.

Cherry pick is irrelevant since they were professionals. Your comment proves nothing.

I stated in shape. If you are going to put words in my mouth, then post where I implied the your supposed statement.

You are ignoring any context that doesn't support your points. Killing an retired fighter in his 40s proves what?

It is clear why the comment was made in a previous thread that some of you have never been in a real fight. This retarded logic is beyond me.

I answered your questions, you just didn't like the answers

So a match set up where one opponent can more easily win means nothing? Really?

You said that Rocky only lost due to "overconfidence", when that completely oversimplifies the plot of Rocky III

That Drago has insane punching power, a plot-point of Rocky IV

Oh shit, another "I'm a real fighter, you're not a real fighter!" rants. Stop? We're talking about Rocky flicks and how things work there, not an actual boxing match

Originally posted by Kotor3
I understand your point but Rocky fought an Apollo who did not trained in part one as a lefty so I am not sure that fighting as a right-handed person change anything. If he switch to left-hand I do not see the results changing.

He only caught Apollo in the last round because Apollo was determined to knock him out.

That was the whole plan tho. He was supposed switch up his fighting style and throw Creed a curve ball. Fighting an opponent in one stance can be completely different that fight that same fighter in another. That's why they referred some much to the southpaw jinx.

I agree but had Rocky switched up like he planned, he may have taken Creed out earlier

Originally posted by Robtard
I answered your questions, you just didn't like the answers

So a match set up where one opponent can win means nothing? Really?

You said that Rocky only lost due to "overconfidence", when that completely ignores the plot of Rocky III

That Drago has insane punching power, a plot-point of Rocky IV

Oh shit, another "I'm a real fighter, you're not a real fighter!" rants. Stop?

There is nothing more to say here. If you feel that Apollo was in better shape in part IV than Rocky was in the beginning of part III then, ok. I can't argue with that kind of logic.

Originally posted by juggerman
Rocky held back in that fight. He purposely hadicapped himself by fighting right handed. So we have Apollo not fighting his exact best(trying to KO Rocky instead of winning by points) and Rocky not fighting his exact best(left handed and/or switching up to throw Creed off his game).

Totally and completely FALSE Juggs and you know it. There were two reasons for that strategy.. First, to throw off Apollo as he would've trained for a Southpaw. Which illustrates the point that they knew they needed tricks up their sleeve to beat him. The whole plan was to trick Apollo.. throw him off.. and then surprise him when you got back to southpaw. Second, was to protect his eye. Mickey didn't even want to train him because of the beating Apollo gave his eye in the first meeting. If Apollo was allowed to tee off on that eye again, it would've been gave over. So it wasn't Rocky limiting himself at all, in fact it was the opposite, it was to give him the best chance to win the fight.

Originally posted by juggerman
That was the whole plan tho. He was supposed switch up his fighting style and throw Creed a curve ball. Fighting an opponent in one stance can be completely different that fight that same fighter in another. That's why they referred some much to the southpaw jinx.

I agree but had Rocky switched up like he planned, he may have taken Creed out earlier

Originally posted by juggerman
That was the whole plan tho. He was supposed switch up his fighting style and throw Creed a curve ball. Fighting an opponent in one stance can be completely different that fight that same fighter in another. That's why they referred some much to the southpaw jinx.

I agree but had Rocky switched up like he planned, he may have taken Creed out earlier

I addressed this already.. it was to throw him off (but again this was because they KNEW they couldn't beat him straight up.. Apollo wasn't going to take him lightly this time). AND a key plot point for the change was the eye as I pointed out above.

The whole point is, DRAGO WASN'T the best fighter Rocky faced. Period end of story. We can call him the hardest puncher... shit call him the most durable. We could also call him an Amateur. Shoot, we could even call him sub .500 for his professional record. Or Goose egg even. I don't care what you call him. The fact is, Apollo is the best fighter in the Rockyverse and it's not that close.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Totally and completely FALSE Juggs and you know it. There were two reasons for that strategy.. First, to throw off Apollo as he would've trained for a Southpaw. Which illustrates the point that they knew they needed tricks up their sleeve to beat him. The whole plan was to trick Apollo.. throw him off.. and then surprise him when you got back to southpaw. Second, was to protect his eye. Mickey didn't even want to train him because of the beating Apollo gave his eye in the first meeting. If Apollo was allowed to tee off on that eye again, it would've been gave over. So it wasn't Rocky limiting himself at all, in fact it was the opposite, it was to give him the best chance to win the fight.

The best chance would have been him actually switching but he didn't. He's a natural left handed fighter. Fighting right handed is unnatural to him and holds him back. If it were as easy, he wouldn't have gone right back to Southpaw right after he beat Creed

Originally posted by Kotor3
So, it could be called more strategy than an handicap but I see your point. Still though, Apollo was in full steam in part II, I do not think Rocky ever had a real chance since Apollo took care of him already in part I with no training. Rocky biggest problem was that he could not land a hit on Apollo.

Yes a strategy but one he did not use. He kept himself right handed instead of fighting to his full potential.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I addressed this already.. it was to throw him off (but again this was because they KNEW they couldn't beat him straight up.. Apollo wasn't going to take him lightly this time). AND a key plot point for the change was the eye as I pointed out above.

He did beat him straight up. Apollo had years and years of fighting right handed people. Rocky fighting right handed would play into Creeds strengths more than weaknessess. The plan was for Rocky to switch up. He never did

Originally posted by Kotor3
Ok, you answered my questions. You have yet to prove the Rocky out of shape in part III which is what you said or that Apollo was in shape to fight someone like Drago or any professional fighter.

There is nothing more to say here. If you feel that Apollo was in better shape in part IV than Rocky was in the beginning of part III then, ok. I can't argue with that kind of logic.

Um, I posted quotes from Mickey that Rocky wasn't ready for his first match with Lang

Maybe the Rocky III plot from wiki? Will that satisfy you?

"Rocky's trainer Mickey (Burgess Meredith) initially wants no part of the match and refuses to train Rocky. After Rocky demands to know why, Mickey tells him that Lang was correct and all of his title defenses were fought against handpicked opponents in order to keep him successful, as well as to avoid more devastating injuries, such as the ones he suffered in the fight against Apollo Creed (Carl Weathers) in their two matches."

"Both fighters go in different directions in regards to their training for the fight. Lang works out alone in a spartan setting with very little equipment. Rocky, on the other hand, rents out a hotel ballroom and opens his training camp to the public with dozens of distractions that frustrate Mickey, who fears they will lead to disaster in the fight."

Does that sound to you like a boxer who's ready and in shape for a real boxing match?

I said Creed looked and moved better in Rocky IV than Balboa did in his first Lang match, because he did, couple that with the plot of Rocky III. I also said Creed was retired and not prepared in Rocky IV. So you trying to imply that I claimed Drago killed a super-prime-boxer is silly

Originally posted by juggerman
The best chance would have been him actually switching but he didn't. He's a natural left handed fighter. Fighting right handed is unnatural to him and holds him back. If it were as easy, he wouldn't have gone right back to Southpaw right after he beat Creed

Yes a strategy but one he did not use. He kept himself right handed instead of fighting to his full potential.

He did beat him straight up. Apollo had years and years of fighting right handed people. Rocky fighting right handed would play into Creeds strengths more than weaknessess. The plan was for Rocky to switch up. He never did

Big Juggs.. I'm guessing you've never really boxed at all to say some of the stuff you have. When you're preparing for a fight.. and training tendencies down to when he throws a certain punch, how he sets up his punches, where the punches come from... it's a science to it. Apollo specifically trained to fight a southpaw and his trainer no doubt implemented his strategy to fight a southpaw. Having Rocky fight right handed would totally throw off your opponent. It doesn't matter that you've fought Right handers your whole life, it would still through you off because you've trained and studied a fighter to do A and he's doing something totally different and not where he should be during certain exchanges because the angles are now different. Everything is different. THAT was the point, they knew they couldn't be him like that and NEEDED to protect the eye. This was a KEY plot point of Rocky 2.. how you could've missed this is beyond me. Rocky switching up earlier doesn't mean he gets Apollo out earlier, it means he gets the fight stopped earlier from his eye totally shutting and then getting brutalized.

Originally posted by Robtard
Um, I posted quotes from Mickey that Rocky wasn't ready for his first match with Lang

Maybe the Rocky III plot from wiki? Will that satisfy you?

"Rocky's trainer Mickey (Burgess Meredith) initially wants no part of the match and refuses to train Rocky. After Rocky demands to know why, Mickey tells him that Lang was correct and all of his title defenses were fought against handpicked opponents in order to keep him successful, as well as to avoid more devastating injuries, such as the ones he suffered in the fight against Apollo Creed (Carl Weathers) in their two matches."

"Both fighters go in different directions in regards to their training for the fight. Lang works out alone in a spartan setting with very little equipment. Rocky, on the other hand, rents out a hotel ballroom and opens his training camp to the public with dozens of distractions that frustrate Mickey, who fears they will lead to disaster in the fight."

Does that sound to you like a boxer who's ready and in shape for a real boxing match?

I said Creed looked and moved better in Rocky IV than Balboa did in his first Lang match, because he did, couple that with the plot of Rocky III. I also said Creed was retired and not prepared in Rocky IV. So you trying to imply that I claimed Drago killed a super-prime-boxer is silly

Kinda true, but Rocky at the end left the circus show to train hard with Mickey with nobody around. Sow while his training was kinda circus style at first, he did buckle down at the end. Further, Mickey said that stuff to him BEFORE the fight... BEFORE they started training. It would be one thing to say that after you lose, like thanks I wish I would've known before the fight. Rocky did know, and clearly would've taken steps to step it up a little having heard his trainer say he protected him some.

Will say, watching all matches again, I'm less inclined that Drago would beat prime Creed. Drago would have to catch Creed in the early rounds and slow him down if not outright KO, otherwise Drago is ****ed should Creed successfully dance/strike until Drago starts to slow

edit: Basically how I see prime Ali Vs prime Tyson

Funny how some of you keep calling the people who think Drago would win "fanboys". I can't speak for anyone else but I'm in no way a "Drago fanboy". I call them how I see them and it's clear to me that Drago was the baddest opponent Rocky had ever faced.

Seriously, no one else even comes close. Rocky even said after his fight with Drago "I just fought the best fight of my life" to the doctors who were evaluating him in Rocky 5.

Without the special training that Rocky went thru in 4 neither Apollo or Lang would even be able to hurt Drago. Their punches would have little effect on him. Eventually Drago would land a punch on them and when that happens they'd be in a world of hurt. Not saying that because I'm a "fanboy" but because it's a fact.

For crying out loud, just watch the phucking movies without looking thru Apollo or Lang-colored glasses and it would be evident to you too.

Originally posted by Star428
Funny how some of you keep calling the people who think Drago would win "fanboys". I can't speak for anyone else but I'm in no way a "Drago fanboy". I call them how I see them and it's clear to me that Drago was the baddest opponent Rocky had ever faced.

Seriously, no one else even comes close. Rocky even said after his fight with Drago "I just fought the best fight of my life" to the doctors who were evaluating him in Rocky 5.

Without the special training that Rocky went thru in 4 neither Apollo or Lang would even be able to hurt Drago. Their punches would have little effect on him. Eventually Drago would land a punch on them and when that happens they'd be in a world of hurt. Not saying that because I'm a "fanboy" but because it's a fact.

For crying out loud, watch the phucking movies without looking thru Apollo or Lang-colored glasses and it would be evident to you too.

Of course Rocky was out of shape at the beginning of Rocky 3, moreso mentally than anything, that was the whole point behind the "eye of the tiger" speech Apollo gave to him during training, he was also physically not at his pinnacle, sure he was in shape but he wasn't in prime fighting shape and that cannot be disputed really. Apollo vs Drago was the same deal, Apollo was in great shape, he wasnt in prime fighting shape though, regardless of his age he was in the same shape and state of mind Rocky was at in the beginning of Rocky 3

Originally posted by Robtard
Will say, watching all matches again, I'm less inclined that Drago would beat prime Creed. Drago would have to catch Creed in the early rounds and slow him down if not outright KO, otherwise Drago is ****ed should Creed successfully dance/strike until Drago starts to slow

edit: Basically how I see prime Ali Vs prime Tyson

A pretty fair assessment in my opinion. I think Drago would always have a punchers chance against anybody, and if he could catch Creed early, could finish him off. I just think a Prime Creed, would take him

In the end, I enjoyed growing up watching the Rockyverse. Sure some of it was silly, but they have rewatchability and that's important to me.

Originally posted by relentless1
Of course Rocky was out of shape at the beginning of Rocky 3, moreso mentally than anything, that was the whole point behind the "eye of the tiger" speech Apollo gave to him during training, he was also physically not at his pinnacle, sure he was in shape but he wasn't in prime fighting shape and that cannot be disputed really. Apollo vs Drago was the same deal, Apollo was in great shape, he wasnt in prime fighting shape though, regardless of his age he was in the same shape and state of mind Rocky was at in the beginning of Rocky 3

Couldn't disagree more than Rocky at the start of 3 was like Creed at he start of 4. Creed was pushing 40 by that point and wasn't even training anymore like a professional fighter. He was half ass training for a charity fight WELL WELL past his prime. Swimming in the pool and playing catch with your Dog, and maybe (never shown) sparring here and there is a far far cry from training at the highest level to compete against others at the highest level for a championship fight. Those two things are so far apart that I don't think grasp quite how far apart they are relentless

Originally posted by Robtard
Will say, watching all matches again, I'm less inclined that Drago would beat prime Creed. Drago would have to catch Creed in the early rounds and slow him down if not outright KO, otherwise Drago is ****ed should Creed successfully dance/strike until Drago starts to slow

edit: Basically how I see prime Ali Vs prime Tyson

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Couldn't disagree more than Rocky at the start of 3 was like Creed at he start of 4. Creed was pushing 40 by that point and wasn't even training anymore like a professional fighter. He was half ass training for a charity fight WELL WELL past his prime. Swimming in the pool and playing catch with your Dog, and maybe (never shown) sparring here and there is a far far cry from training at the highest level to compete against others at the highest level for a championship fight. Those two things are so far apart that I don't think grasp quite how far apart they are relentless