Darth Bane (with orbalisk armor) runs sith lord gauntlet

Originally posted by McP
@Neph

I coulnd't belive, that you agreed with me in so much points.

Anyway, I'm not using Stover's novel over ROTS movie as an evidence. I just use Stover's nove as "what if?".
Stover's novel is very good book, argubly even better then the movie, with all of this scenes, that were cut off from the movie (delegation 2000 etc).
But it reallu suck as source of evidences on that forum. Each fight in that book is oposite to those in the movie.
Agen and Saesee were killed by surprise in the book, while they were just killed in the movie.
Dooku coudln't compete with Anakin's Djem So, and barely could overpower Kenobi's defense physically at the end. And he was unable to fight them both at once. In the movie he could fight them both at once, and was able to defend himself quite comfortably. He also bested Obi by using the Force (and a moment before he outmaneuvered tem in a saberlock). Anakin was able to defeat Dooku only because his mind was at least a bit clear, and thanks to rage he was able to use much of his power.
Yoda faild to defeat Palpatine, he admited that Palpatine was stronger, and Yoda lost most of his energy while Palpatine lost almost nothing. Effect of that was, that Palpatine was faster and was able to hit Yoda with his FL in the senate's building. in the movie, Yoda was equal to Sidious to the very end (and perhaps even a bit stronger, sice it looks like he was overpowering him in their Force battle at the end).
And Anakin vs Obi-wan's fight in the book.... just suck.

Well brace yourself because I'm about to agree with you entirely yet again! The novel generally is awful as a source for the movie, mostly because it's so much better than it. But yeah, not good as evidence.

Originally posted by McP
About Zannah vs Bane:
As I remember, there was a quote in the DoE, that says that Zannah acknowledged, that Bane fought better then ever (even better then in RoT). Zannah was stronger then before at that point, so it's save to assume, that DoE Bane > Sarro in a swordsmanship. Technical compression him to the Lsu is still an unknown.

👆

Originally posted by McP
I also think, that Zannah wasn't that good duelist, even at the end of DoE. She was just familiar with his fighting style, which enabled her to fight him quite equally in a duel (like Obi and Ani, its obvious that Anakin was much better then Obi-Wan; the same might be told about Mace and Depa).
I agree, that mastery in using the saber alone, is not enought to defend against a high level of FL. One needs to great kills in the Force and saber, to successfully defend against that.
I really doubt, that Zannah would be able to defend herself against Sidious FL, even for a while.

It's also sad, that all of Bane's feats are from nexuses. But - as I remeber - there is one quote of Drew, when he puts Vader, Bane and Revan in the same league.

Well I disagree. Overall maybe she's less than perfect but her defensive abilities are completely top tier. It wasn't just familiarity with Bane's style (that he switches halfway through anyway), but that her defense is nigh impregnable. Her speed, strength and power was also enough to deal with Bane's and I find him to be stellar in all aspects of these.

I also disagree with Zannah not being up to blocking Sidious' lightning. She's powerful enough imo.

Yeah, he did. More or less.

Neph- True.

I think Maul's being underrated and overrated a little, here. The stuff about form knowledge and proficiency is relevant, sure, but either way it's not much of a deciding factor when we're dealing with fighters as elite as Maul. He isn't going to lose to Kas'im just because he knows less forms. Although to that end, achieving mastery in Niman alongside Juyo, Teras Kasi and one other form (likely Ataru), as well as Jar'kai and Saberstaff combat, within Maul's training time frame (and his training was complete), is highly impressive. Niman alone takes at the very least a whole decade to master, according to Drallig, and Juyo can only be mastered after attaining a high-end mastery of several other forms. Maul had all of this accomplished by the time he was 22, so not too shabby at all.

Maul also isn't confirmed as being the most skilled Sith warrior up to his time, that's kind of ridiculous. Mind you, it's not easy finding people to put above him in terms of lightsaber combat, but it's not like it's a confirmed fact that he was better than everyone else up to that point. I also wouldn't say he's quite equal with Windu, but he's not far off. He also didn't defeat Ventress. Him stomping Savage isn't really inconsistent, either, though, Maul's just well suited to dealing with Savage. Both are physically powerful, martial arts-oriented fighters - Maul is just far better trained than Savage, hence why he cranked his wrist and disarmed him so easily. The several-ton strong Jedi-killing legs didn't hurt either.

Anyway.. I would say Maul is more skilled than Bane, and without orbalisks their physical stat difference should be negligible either way. Bane could certainly win with orbalisks though.

As for power, I'm starting to think TPM Maul is a lot more powerful than he's given credit for. For one, he nearly Force screamed a freaking barracks to the ground when he was just 15 (and he was stated as becoming more powerful gradually over time, and felt more powerful than ever after passing his Sith trials). He also has other feats like levitating a "large boulder" several meters without gesturing or looking at it, which, while isn't necessarily overwhelming, shows he has a fair amount of mastery over telekinesis. He just comes off as someone who reserves a lot of his innate power, and he needed to, in order to not reveal his Sith-ness. Then after re-appearing in TCW, where he gets all his best power feats, there are some things to note.

-He lost half of his potential/midichlorians
-On the other hand, he also had 12 years to stew in his hatred which, due to being such an awful ordeal, can cause a surge in power over time

So TPM Maul likely isn't that far off his TCW counterpart, he just uses his power less. So, to that end, Maul should be powerful enough to hold his own against standard Bane even if he has his nexus feats, because then you just have to imagine what Maul could do with nexus-enhanced telekinesis.

I never said Maul would lose to Kas'im, just that arguably he's less skilled than him. I'd say they're at about the same level in raw combat. And like I said, Kas'im mastered more in a shorter amount of time. So, not sure why we should assume he's less talented than Maul is.

Also I wouldn't take that force scream thing as being literal, personally. It's not like Maul hasn't greatly exaggerated his abilities before, like when he thought he could solo the Jedi temple and the council in one of the novels.

Maul said that using stealthy hit and run tactics he could have "killed many" of the council members, which, while ridiculous, isn't the same as him soloing the temple/council like people make out to be what was said. Maul does overestimate himself, but it's not necessarily arrogance, he just wills himself into being as powerful and skilled as possible. He has this inhuman level of confidence that lets him believe he can do virtually anything, but he doesn't take that for granted, but rather uses it to push himself further than other beings.

So yeah, having said that, I don't think the barracks feat is really far-fetched based on the Plagueis quote alone.

Plagueis quote? Maul thinks that in the novel he fights Bondara iirc. Pretty sure it's about him resenting having to be stealthy and that he'd love for him and Sidious to just slaughter the Jedi straight up. There are other reasons not to think it's literal and is hyperbolic, I was just recalling Maul's arrogance as a factor.

In Shadow Hunter I believe it talks about how Sidious would conceal him and Maul's presence so Maul could observe the Jedi and study them, and Maul also muses at one point that he'd consider either Plo Koon or Mace Windu a "true test of his skill".

In Plagueis he criticises the Yinchorri's attack on the temple and claims it would have been more successful had he been leading them, which is why he claimed he could have killed a lot of Jedi by being there. So.. yeah, he didn't say he can waltz into the temple and start offing Council members, he just said that had the temple been under assault, he would have done a better job of assassinating high-priority Jedi than the Yinchorri.

I distinctly remember him thinking of solo'ing the temple or something similar and I've never read the Plagueis novel so that Yinchorri thing is irrelevant.

I won't go on rants as I already have minimal time as it is, I will simply correct A few things on my point:

When I stated he defeated Ventress I refer to the 2 vs 2 where Maul and Opress clearly had them beat.

When I say he is essentially confirmed to be the greatest Sith Warrior I refer to him having skills easily comparable to any dedicated martial Sith and surpassing them. Add to this his numerous statements as one of the best duelists/Sith fighters ever and you have a strong contention for that rank.

And both times when Maul briefly clashed with Ventress in that fight she got the upper hand and kicked him right in the face. But totally not enough to say he beat her because they barely fought.

That's not confirmation or close to it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I distinctly remember him thinking of solo'ing the temple or something similar and I've never read the Plagueis novel so that Yinchorri thing is irrelevant.

http://imgur.com/a/mAsAT

The fight was Kenobi & Ventress vs Maul & Opress and the brothers clearly won, Kenobi admits as much.

He is confirmed to be one of the greatest ever and until TCW has better martial combat feats and accolades than all of his contenders. To me that solidifies/confirms his place as the dog.

The idea of Kas'im being anywhere in the same universe to Maul is hilarious

Originally posted by ILS
Then after re-appearing in TCW, where he gets all his best power feats, there are some things to note.

-He lost half of his potential/midichlorians
-On the other hand, he also had 12 years to stew in his hatred which, due to being such an awful ordeal, can cause a surge in power over time

So TPM Maul likely isn't that far off his TCW counterpart, he just uses his power less. So, to that end, Maul should be powerful enough to hold his own against standard Bane even if he has his nexus feats, because then you just have to imagine what Maul could do with nexus-enhanced telekinesis.

Hard to tell. He possibli lost much of his potential, but again - after that he was amped by Talzin's magic. It could restore or even increased his prievous potential.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I disagree. Overall maybe she's less than perfect but her defensive abilities are completely top tier. It wasn't just familiarity with Bane's style (that he switches halfway through anyway), but that her defense is nigh impregnable. Her speed, strength and power was also enough to deal with Bane's and I find him to be stellar in all aspects of these.

I also disagree with Zannah not being up to blocking Sidious' lightning. She's powerful enough imo.

Yeah, he did. More or less.

Well, there is a problem, because there is a lot of characters, that are described as near-perfect or even perfect, while they aren't. As I remember, Starkiller for example.
Zannah wasn't tallented in dueling, and she focused herself mostly on a sith magic. I just can't believe, that she was top duelist.

True, but Bane couldn't penetrate her defense other than by using the environment. As you know I think highly of Bane and thus I think highly of Zannah's defense. Her defense is indeed extremely effective in it's mechanics and nigh impenetrable is kind of accurate.

^
I know your opinion about Bane. Well, you read Bane's inability to penetrate Zannah's defense as feat for her. For me, its - unfortunately - bad showing for Bane.

That's kind of not how logic works. It's a feat for Zannah, not an anti-feat for Bane, unless it really does contradict something.

Considering the fact that Bane's offense was driving Kas'im back in POD, and his unpredictability in ROT caught Raskta Lsu off guard, both of whom had dedicated their lives to mastering the lightsaber, and both of whom were respected as the greatest duelists in their respective orders, and considering the fact that after mastering all seven Forms, Kas'im spent decades perfecting every single move and sequence of the seven forms, and in Raskta's duel with Bane, she had battle meditation...

yeah, I'd say defending against Bane's onslaught in DOE is a pretty damn good defensive feat for Zannah, rather than any kind of detraction from Bane.

I'm loling @ Banes unpredictability wank, Raskta posed no challenge and Bane was amped 2x and nearly entirely invulnerable to any of her attacks. It wasn't his 00b3r unpredictability that got Raskta it's the fact he was protected/amped like a druggie. Kas'im's incompetence and need to cheat prove he is a trash tier duelist, the lowest duelist from the PT era would humiliate Kas'im in a duel.

Yeah, it kinda was Bane's unpredictability that allowed him to throw her to the floor with an elbow strike. He caught her off guard with his unpredictability in that duel, and in DOE, he had only become far more unpredictable, retooling his fighting style around it.

You mean just like how Maul cheated against Siolo?

For the record, when Bane was at a point in his dueling career in POD where he admitted he wouldn't stand a chance against Kas'im wielding a saberstaff, Bane still managed to solo a pack of twelve Tuk'ata with onlt his lightsaber skills without a scratch. A year before AOTC however, Anakin on the other hand, struggled with one singular Tuk'ata, suffering an arm injury before he was able to subdue it. As a group, Anakin, Obi-wan, Ferus (who was considered a better duelist than Anakin at this point), Siri Tachi, two other padawans, Jedi Master Soara Antana (who was noted to be a better duelist than anybody else in that group), and one other Jedi Master collectively had difficulty with a pack of ten Tuk'ata.

So the idea that Bane, Kas'im, and Zannah are somehow fodder duelists when compared with any of the PT era duelists is one that is completely unfounded.

Bane's "unpredictability" didn't stop him from getting slashed several times, though, which is the point that carthage made. That being said, I'm not entirely sure why that's even relevant here.