Not sure why BM is being brought up....not really needed at all tbh. Even then, Nial Declann has it and if pressed, he'll use it to great effect and amp up the fleets.
Not that he really should bother, the GE fleets are just superior to the SE fleets.
It doesn't help that there is little information regarding the SE military anyway, there are bits and pieces of info sure but nothing to the extent of what the GE have and what the SE info is there...is pitiful really.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You don't need to publicly acknowledge my greatness, I'm perceptive enough to recognize your quiet envy of it. But seriously: once you come to terms with the fact that the object of your affections is slipping inevitably towards total irrelevance, you'll be a much stronger e-warrior.Accept Vitiate's inferiority, my son. Let acceptance soothe you like a cooling balm to your wounded soul.
excellent
Again with the new words... I like it though.
Well, like I said, you need to better yourself as well and you truly exaggerate my alignment with Vitiate. There are people here who claim he is weaker than the likes of Kit Fisto. He often doesn't get the respect he deserves and if that was the case with Sidious, I'd spend more time on him on this forum instead of Viti. So its not really about being obsessed on the character.
Okay so I went back into my nifty comic book and I looked at all that Darth Mekhis created
So you already know the ascendant spear
The Gauntlet can shoot ships out of hyperspace
Emperors shadow has high tech cloaking tech
The Silencer: Rapid recharge "fleet killer" Megalazer
The undying: unknown
Javelin dreadnaughts: capable of scorching planets surfaces
and the most important of all Sun Razers. 6 in total. These Sun Razers feed of the energy and matter of stars and convert them into resources. Meaning that Vitiates empire has nearly unlimited resources
Originally posted by WildBantha88
Vitiates Empire is not without its super weapons either. Say what you will about Darth Mekhis she was a superweapon factory.She created countless superweapons and most famously The Ascendant Spear which was capable of soloing fleets with ease.
Thing is, the Spear was only a super weapon due to its hyperdrive. Plus it didn't really solo any fleets with ease in Annihilation, it destroyed a couple fleet that was already engaged in a battle, one of which was in disarray.
Plus it hasn't met the likes of an ISD or Super ISD, it can destroy Hammerheads obviously with ease but the Hammerhead cruisers are nowhere near the former.
Plus it had to focus fire with all turbolaser front batteries to destroy a Valor class.
Originally posted by Zenwolfits still one hell of a capital ship that was annihilating (see what I did their) every ship that it came across with ease. The only reason that it got destroyed is because Theron and Gnost sabotaged it from the inside
Thing is, the Spear was only a super weapon due to its hyperdrive. Plus it didn't really solo any fleets with ease in Annihilation, it destroyed a couple fleet that was already engaged in a battle, one of which was in disarray.Plus it hasn't met the likes of an ISD or Super ISD, it can destroy Hammerheads obviously with ease but the Hammerhead cruisers are nowhere near the former.
Originally posted by WildBantha88
its still one hell of a capital ship that was annihilating (see what I did their) every ship that it came across with ease. The only reason that it got destroyed is because Theron and Gnost sabotaged it from the inside
Right, but look at what it was fighting. Hammerheads are pitiful really by anything the Imperial navy has, and the Valor, is pretty much the same way.
Plus the Spear did take damage, so it's not an indestructible ship. The GE has far better ships and pilots and more resources, enabling to destroy it in a straight up engagement it doesn't really need to destroy it from the inside.
If nothing else, Super Star Destroyer it...done.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
They also have better commanders, IE: Piett, Thrawn, Veers, etc.Not to mention, the GE have the knowledge on their side considering they have academies that go over military history and so forth. So they would know about the Sith Empire and the like, whereas that isn't true for the SE.
Not in much detail- remember, the New Sith Wars really trashed a lot of the history books.
Right, but look at what it was fighting. Hammerheads are pitiful really by anything the Imperial navy has, and the Valor, is pretty much the same way.Plus the Spear did take damage, so it's not an indestructible ship. The GE has far better ships and pilots and more resources, enabling to destroy it in a straight up engagement it doesn't really need to destroy it from the inside.
Quite. In a straight fight, every ISD is effectively a top-flagship by TOR standards. A Hammerhead is a frigate by GE standards, and a Harrower a fairly light cruiser, which would have to operate in groups to beat a Victory or ISD.
The GE needs to hold off against the big threat of the force user advantage, but really does not have to hold off against the force user advantage all that long if they can prevent sith from yoinking fleets and getting defectors and stuff.
Hm, the fleets really need to use tactics to minimize the chances of sith saboteurs getting on... because that is a bigger threat than direct combat.
Wildbantha88and the most important of all Sun Razers. 6 in total. These Sun Razers feed of the energy and matter of stars and convert them into resources. Meaning that Vitiates empire has nearly unlimited resources
Problems: One, there was only one completed Sun Razer. More were planned, but Mekhis bit it. And, well, that one got blown up.
Two, they're pretty fragile. Hit 'em and they blow up.
Three, a lot of their superweapons are, well, just good ships. Really good at the time, but they have limits.
If they did have all of them and have them going, it'd merely buy time on the conventional size.
One thing, in space engagements. The Empire could send in Zero-G Assault Stormtroopers to pretty much capture any SE vessel. Stormtroopers who are literal walking tanks, have training 2nd only to the Royal Guardsmen and something I really don't think the SE would expect.
Have some of them badass dudes capture a SE ship or 2 and they could use those to their advantage in a few different ways. Or...just straight up destroy it.
Tbh I'm not seeing what advantage the Force Users bring for the SE.
Ok...yes the SE has Force Users, but exactly how many of them are actually good? The DMs? Fine. Vitiate, fine. The DC? Fine.
But the rank and file, nameless Sith?...I don't see the advantage here, they have a great melee support to add in with Sith Warriors and the Sith Troopers at range. But it's not like the GE, don't have melee specialists of their own, perhaps not in abundance but still, I don't think it's a real big advantage like some say.
Plus it's not as if the GE don't have other things going for them anyway. The SE having a great number of Force Users, is really there only thing and that isn't enough tbh.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, I'd definitely put Palpatine's proteges well ahead of any rank-and-file Sithling in that arena.
Sidious purposefully had most of the dark siders only partially trained, though. His proteges were sometimes Jedi/Sith Master level, but they were a small part of even the limited number of dark adepts. A lot of them won't have as much training as Sith Warriors/Jedi Knights, they were often there to keep non-force users in line, hunt down Padawans, and alert Vader and the stronger Inquisitors if there was a *real* threat.
And, again, so much more. Sidious's darksiders numbered *maybe* in the low hundreds.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
By the by, it's also not helping the SE any in regarding their military is quite low compared to the GE by like....a lot.Battle of Bothawui, it was considered unprecedented for the SE to use an army of 50k strong.
That is laughable compared to the Imperial Army, which not only number in the tens of trillions. But their Army organization is 131, 072 Army Troopers, along with support.
Oh, those numbers are stupid. So much so that they're safe to ignore.
They were able to take and hold half the galaxy with garrisons on every world.
It's sort of like the 'clone army is just a few million' numbers. It simply doesn't line up with anything.
I mean, the Galactic Empire has the full galaxy at a time when the galaxy is better colonized, so we're still talking at least two, probably three, even three and a half times the recruiting base, so they have the personnel and resources advantage in any case, just not *that* much.
Originally posted by Q99Oh, those numbers are stupid. So much so that they're safe to ignore.
They were able to take and hold half the galaxy with garrisons on every world.
It's sort of like the 'clone army is just a few million' numbers. It simply doesn't line up with anything.
I mean, the Galactic Empire has the full galaxy at a time when the galaxy is better colonized, so we're still talking at least two, probably three, even three and a half times the recruiting base, so they have the personnel and resources advantage in any case, just not *that* much. [/B]
So books are lying now?...
Why is it stupid really? Is it anymore ridiculous compared to other things in fiction?
But fine, we'll just ignore the book but even still yes the GE would have the bigger stuff regardless.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
So books are lying now?...
Some writers have no sense of scale ^^ They can be fine otherwise, but still give army numbers based on their earth-single-world thinking.
Why is it stupid really? Is it anymore ridiculous compared to other things in fiction?
Frankly yes. There's hundreds of thousands of worlds under them at least.
Some of the numbers are basically the equivalent of trying to conquer the state of New York with 200 people. It just won't work.
Ok...yes the SE has Force Users, but exactly how many of them are actually good? The DMs? Fine. Vitiate, fine. The DC? Fine.But the rank and file, nameless Sith?...I don't see the advantage here, they have a great melee support to add in with Sith Warriors and the Sith Troopers at range. But it's not like the GE, don't have melee specialists of their own, perhaps not in abundance but still, I don't think it's a real big advantage like some say.
Normal force users are historically a big help.
And again, think not of direct battle, but of doing stuff like sneaking into ships in dock and blowing up Star Destroyers before they can fight, or get to captains and admirals and threaten them into switching sides, take over the local crime syndicates of different worlds, and so on. A perfectly average sith is a superhuman asset capable of doing a heck of a lot of stuff.
Why do you think the Jedi kept around 10k people and used 'em and didn't just focus on their top badasses? Because your average Knight (or, maybe, knight-padawan duo) could go to a world, find the biggest crime syndicate there, and take it down.
To draw an example of another era of how minor sith can matter, the Legacy sith had Darth Kruhl, of Sith Intelligence. We saw him take over a world by a combination of assassination and intimidation. Then he snuck to the Imperial capital, was sent against Roan Fel, died, and his boss Maladi was all, "Eh, a sith of his level? It's worth it if I just keep Fel nervous." He was a relatively skilled agent, master level I'd say by his performance, but still at expendable level and tossed aside by the badasses.
A pretty expendable sith can affect the non-force using side of things significantly. Send Sith that are the TOR equivalents of Kruhl, or less, to every Imperial Governor one can. Some'll be caught and die on the way, some governors may actually have guards good enough to handle things, but you can win worlds with mere expendables.
Since a lot of Sidious's dark adepts aren't major badasses either having 2-5 sith take on an Inquisitor is, much of the time, going to go the sith way, and free up the somewhat stronger sith from having to deal with anything but the best Inquisitors.
And heck, even when talking fights between badasses, throwing lesser ones in to tilt things in one direction is a major advantage....
Ya but when have we seen SE nameless Sith dudes sneak about? From what I see, they are front troops, charging into the thick of the fight really. The Sith Warriors having some kind of god complex about them.
I don't think an average though would be capable of soloing an entire organization or a small army, that is rather reaching really. Otherwise, you wouldn't have the nameless Non-Force Users, being able to take out the nameless Sith or Jedi.
Also nameless Q, nameless, Kruhl is a named guy. I'm speaking about the faceless Sith here, the ones with no name.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Ya but when have we seen SE nameless Sith dudes sneak about? From what I see, they are front troops, charging into the thick of the fight really. The Sith Warriors having some kind of god complex about them.
There are specific assassins too.
Granted, most of the warriors will be doing warrior stuff, but there's *so many* sith that they have the numbers advantage in every category. And a warrior can still be ordered to do a less-warriory task and serve as muscle backup for someone else.
I don't think an average though would be capable of soloing an entire organization or a small army, that is rather reaching really.
Book of the sith has Sidious talking about how just about any force user can become lord of a planet with a little effort.
Really, if a mook Sith wants to be a crime boss of a world- a smaller task- *very* few crime organizations can resist him.
Otherwise, you wouldn't have the nameless Non-Force Users, being able to take out the nameless Sith or Jedi.Also nameless Q, nameless, Kruhl is a named guy. I'm speaking about the faceless Sith here, the ones with no name.
They can still do tasks at their level.
Threatening the families of nameless ISD captains, blowing up nameless ships with sabotage, etc..
Kruhl's a named guy, but I'd be surprised if the Sith Empire didn't have hundreds and hundreds of guys like him.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Suncrusher, GG.
Not completed until after the GE fell, and surprisingly easy to deal with.
It only has one magazine of resonance torpedoes, and only a fighter-level engine. Slap a few tractor beams on it and it's stuck.
If you can have sith on the outside disable or kill the crew with some dark mojo, you can yoink it.
Not that the GE needs it anyway. They don't even need a death star.
Every ship of the line they have is a major challenge. Every actual flagship might as well be a bonafide superweapon that can only be countered by a much smaller number of superweapons on the SE side- most of said superweapons being fragile enough to not last too long.
Really, the SE lives or dies entirely on covert opts, and covert ops can take some time. They will spend fleets and worlds at a rapid pace, hoping to slow down the GE machine, while their sith try and do everything they can, and it may not be enough.
Heck, the best tactic may simply be to surrender militarily and then try and have the sith launch an uprising from the inside.