Oliver Queen vs Hawkeye

Originally posted by Silent Master
His argument kind of brings back memories, I remember when someone tried arguing that comic Cap throwing his shield long distances had absolutely nothing to do with strength, that instead it was a shield throwing skill feat.

Hahaha what? The skill would come from the ability to make it ricochet off of anything and always come back to him. The damage it does and how far it goes is because he's amped up on super steroids.

Originally posted by KingD19
You keep claiming "battlefield awareness", but that's something you came up with. Officially, Hawkeye is just pretty much the best bowman in the marvel universe. If his arrows could keep going, he'd be Yondu from Guardians of the Galaxy.

So it's not battle awareness unless it's officially pointed out, until then it's just he is that damn good.

Um what? He was able to sense either through sound, smell, or somehow else where this guy was. That's what I'm referring to by "battlefield awareness".

Yes, he is a damn good shot but the feat in question is impressive not because of the shot he made better but the circumstances about it. IE that he knew where his target was going to be without using sight. Now that is what is impressive, that he was able to some how sense where the target was going to be.

This thread has been done to death on countless forums. Hawkeye has better shooting/accuracy feats, but Oliver has him in everything else.

Originally posted by KingD19
Hahaha what? The skill would come from the ability to make it ricochet off of anything and always come back to him. The damage it does and how far it goes is because he's amped up on super steroids.

Yea, it wasn't one of Oats best arguments.

Originally posted by ares834
Um what? He was able to sense either through sound, smell, or somehow else where this guy was. That's what I'm referring to by "battlefield awareness".

Yes, he is a damn good shot but the feat in question is impressive not because of the shot he made better but the circumstances about it. IE that he knew where his target was going to be without using sight. Now that is what is impressive, that he was able to some how sense where the target was going to be.

Unless specifically mentioned as one of his powers, you can't possibly claim that he somehow "sensed them". Hawkeye has never been once been implied as having super senses.

If anything, it is an uber exaggerated "feat" of being able to calculate where your target is going to go simply based on predicting where they wanna be or somesuch and aiming an arrow with such extreme accuracy that you bullseye a fast moving target without looking. Simply put, it's marvel's way of telling us that HE is simply just "that good". Yes, I'm sure some level of skill-based battlefield awareness is involved but not at the level you're trying to make it out. And HE's been able to dodge lasers before and quickdraw an arrow shot fast enough to he kill a Chitauri sneaking up on him at point blank range while his back was turned before it was able to strike a blow. And you're comparing his "feats" with arrow catching and arrow shooting? Surely there must be better "feats" for Ollie here....

Nope. I'm not going to just assume he can magically shoot arrows at anything he wants. Rather I'm going to look at it "logically" and realize he was some how able to sense the target or perhaps it's something similar to "gunkata".

Anyway, I never said Ollie wins or argued for it so much of you're second paragraph is moot as far as I'm concerned.

So instead of just looking at the feat and saying 'damn, he's good" you're going to make up abilities that aren't stated or even hinted at just so that you can say that the feat is less impressive than it looks.

Except it's hinted at in the feat in question itself.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Unless specifically mentioned as one of his powers, you can't possibly claim that he somehow "sensed them". Hawkeye has never been once been implied as having super senses.

If anything, it is an uber exaggerated "feat" of being able to calculate where your target is going to go simply based on predicting where they wanna be or somesuch and aiming an arrow with such extreme accuracy that you bullseye a fast moving target without looking. Simply put, it's marvel's way of telling us that HE is simply just "that good". Yes, I'm sure some level of skill-based battlefield awareness is involved but not at the level you're trying to make it out. And HE's been able to dodge lasers before and quickdraw an arrow shot fast enough to he kill a Chitauri sneaking up on him at point blank range while his back was turned before it was able to strike a blow. And you're comparing his "feats" with arrow catching and arrow shooting? Surely there must be better "feats" for Ollie here....

That said idk if this true for the Renner.

Originally posted by ares834
Except it's hinted at in the feat in question itself.

You might as well say that he has a mutant power to never miss and the proof is that he never misses. you are literally making up an ability that has never been mentioned in the MCU.

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. I'm not going to just assume he can magically shoot arrows at anything he wants. Rather I'm going to look at it "logically" and realize he was some how able to sense the target or perhaps it's something similar to "gunkata".

Anyway, I never said Ollie wins or argued for it so much of you're second paragraph is moot as far as I'm concerned.

None of that has been alluded to. Gunkata does not exist in the MCU so. I don't really know what you're going about there, I mean wat da...! He has no super senses so, again, that's a made up assumption.

Yes, you didn't say Ollie would win but you did say this:

Originally posted by ares834
Except, like I said, Hawkeye's feat isn't impressive because of the accuracy but the battlefield awareness. From that standpoint, yes Oliver's feat is far more impressive.

And your reasoning was this shooting an arrow in flight is (holy cow!) not just more impressive but FAR more impressive.

You DO understand that shooting an arrow out of the air has as much to do with predicting where the arrow is going to be as much as being able to skillfully aim for it right? That one's ability to predict where one's target is going along with computing where your projectile/missile is going relative to where the target will be at the time it takes to get hit? And that HE's "feat" is essentially this taken to an extreme uber exaggerated level? And essentially, that's what makes up "accuracy" when shooting at moving targets?

Also, I don't know why you would say my second paragraph was moot as this part of it is very important and explains why HE's "feat" is pretty damned impressive.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
If anything, it is an uber exaggerated "feat" of being able to calculate where your target is going to go simply based on predicting where they wanna be or somesuch and aiming an arrow with such extreme accuracy that you bullseye a fast moving target without looking. Simply put, it's marvel's way of telling us that HE is simply just "that good". Yes, I'm sure some level of skill-based battlefield awareness is involved but not at the level you're trying to make it out.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
actually Hawkeye has (very very) low level super eyesight and (very very) low level sound loss.

That said idk if this true for the Renner.

In comics. In comics, Thor has different abilities as well. We just can't assume such abilities exist until they are explicitly mentioned otherwise we might as well start pulling out random powers from our butts.

Sure, I agreed in my earlier post

That said its not outrageous to think a comic element is in the movie version.

Only it's never been mentioned.....it's like arguing that because at one time comic Thor was able to time travel, movie Thor must also have this ability.

Not really, it's more like assuming Thor has super senses.

Both have shown it's definitely possible, but neither has blatantly said it.
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That said the magical/mutant/bs excuse # whatever thing is dumb, Hawkeye is just more skilled.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You might as well say that he has a mutant power to never miss and the proof is that he never misses. you are literally making up an ability that has never been mentioned in the MCU.

🙄

Originally posted by Nibedicus
None of that has been alluded to. Gunkata does not exist in the MCU so. I don't really know what you're going about there, I mean wat da...! He has no super senses so, again, that's a made up assumption.

Except that's what the feat itself is proving... Hawkeye was somehow able to sense where the target was so he could take the shot. Either that or he predicted where the target is (something that you brought up) which is essentially part of what gunkata is (hence why I mentioned it).

This is basic stuff here. To shoot a target you have to either know where it is or guess where it is (or be very lucky which is certainly not the case here).

It has just as much evidence to support it as your argument.

Originally posted by ares834
🙄

Except that's what the feat itself is proving... Hawkeye was somehow able to sense where the target was so he could take the shot. Either that or he predicted where the target is (something that you brought up) which is essentially part of what gunkata is (hence why I mentioned it).

This is basic stuff here. To shoot a target you have to either know where it is or guess where it is (or be very lucky which is certainly not the case here).

You're essentially ignoring 80% of my post and repeating things I've already debunked.....

Originally posted by Silent Master
It has just as much evidence to support it as your argument.

So how was he able to know where the target was?

He has a mutant power that means he'll never miss.