Oliver Queen vs Hawkeye

Originally posted by ares834
So how was he able to know where the target was?

3rd time posting this. I'll do it one more time but that's it.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
If anything, it is an uber exaggerated "feat" of being able to calculate where your target is going to go simply based on predicting where they wanna be or somesuch and aiming an arrow with such extreme accuracy that you bullseye a fast moving target without looking. Simply put, it's marvel's way of telling us that HE is simply just "that good". Yes, I'm sure some level of skill-based battlefield awareness is involved but not at the level you're trying to make it out.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
You're essentially ignoring 80% of my post and repeating things I've already debunked.....

No I'm ignoring the fluff to prevent a multiquote debate.

But here, ill respond to the rest. Yes, I realize shooting an arrow out of the sky would take fast reactions and good predictions. But at the end it's still shooting a small fast abject which is why it's damn impressive.

There I addressed it. happy now?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
3rd time posting this. I'll do it one more time but that's it.

🙄

Already responded to that with this:

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. I'm not going to just assume he can magically shoot arrows at anything he wants. Rather I'm going to look at it "logically" and realize he was some how able to sense the target or perhaps it's something similar to "gunkata".

Anyway, I never said Ollie wins or argued for it so much of you're second paragraph is moot as far as I'm concerned.

The first two sentences basically address it.

Originally posted by ares834
🙄

Already responded to that with this:

The first two sentences basically address it.

Do you just really ignore/interpret ppl's arguments to suit your needs or what?

I explained it pretty well how it works logically and not "magically". If you want to close you eyes and go "la la la, not gonna believe this!!!", well I won't stop you. But that only proves how wrong you are and unable to rebut my points.

/shrug

Edit. The funny part is that "you're not gonna assume that he can magically" do something but you're gonna go ahead and assume he has super powers. Cuz magic is just a lot less logical than super powerszz!!!1one

/le sigh

The f*** are you going on about? I'm not the one ignoring arguments here. I even consented that it could be based on prediction in that very post by comparing it to gunkata (which is based on advanced predictions) and actually directly mentioned the word prediction later on when I clarified what I meant by using the term...

And no I never once assumed super powers. But thanks for strawmaning.

That Danish archer (Lars Anderson) uses a low poundage bow, maybe 20 or so pounds. Plus he probably had multiple takes trying to shoot that other arrow out of the air. Completely different from trying to catch or shoot an arrow shot from a high poundage bow.

Hawkeye shoots a recurve, Oliver shoots a compound. If we're talking pure arrow speed and piercing power, recurves can't contend with compounds.

Originally posted by ares834
The f*** are you going on about? I'm not the one ignoring arguments here. I even consented that it could be based on prediction in that very post by comparing it to gunkata (which is based on advanced predictions) and actually directly mentioned the word prediction later on when I clarified what I meant by using the term...

Gunkata is "predictive" shooting via statistical knowledge of best location of a target to create optimal killzones AFAIR.

But if you're only thinking about the "predicting" part. Then in a tiny, salvageable portion of your post you're finally getting it. And if you are, I just don't see how you're still not getting the gist of my argument unless you're being intentionally obtuse...

Originally posted by ares834
And no I never once assumed super powers. But thanks for strawmaning.

Oh, pardon me. I meant ALMOST "supernatural".

Originally posted by ares834
Hawkeye's feat is less one of archery skill and more an almost supernatural battle awareness.

Cuz I'm sure either hearing, smelling or w/e sensing a moving target very long range and being able to shoot it with just that sensory input is just ALMOST superhuman...

Originally posted by ares834
Um what? He was able to sense either through sound, smell, or somehow else where this guy was. That's what I'm referring to by "battlefield awareness

Hence the quotation marks. Not to mention I clarified it in the next post directed to you... Had you actually read my posts you would have grasped this.

So you admit you stramaned me. Cool. 👆

And I don't know if you realize this, but these character are able to perform feats that no human is capable of.

Originally posted by FrothByte
That Danish archer (Lars Anderson) uses a low poundage bow, maybe 20 or so pounds. Plus he probably had multiple takes trying to shoot that other arrow out of the air. Completely different from trying to catch or shoot an arrow shot from a high poundage bow.

Hawkeye shoots a recurve, Oliver shoots a compound. If we're talking pure arrow speed and piercing power, recurves can't contend with compounds.

Yet of the two, the recurve has made further shots, more accurate shots, faster shots, etc...

Also you're assuming his bow is just a bow he got from Wal-Mart. It's clearly custom made considering not only can he fold it up, but he can whack super durable aliens without it breaking. His quiver is incredibly high tech and has an auto selector. Why would his bow just be an ordinary, run of the mill bow?

Originally posted by ares834
Hence the quotation marks. Not to mention I clarified it in the next post directed to you... Had you actually read my posts you would have grasped this.

Pls quote w/c "question marks" you mean and how these addresses what I posted.

And, unlike you, I actually quoted what you said and addressed them individually. So drop the wholly unoriginal "had you read" schtick. You have no ground to stand on there.

Originally posted by ares834
So you admit you stramaned me. Cool. 👆

Slightly misquoted, maybe. Irrelevant as the basic gist was there as well as an explanation on why the word "almost" was silly and thus disregarded.

I'm not sure strawmanning means what you think it means....

And the "oh noes! He strawmanzd me" schtick kinda reeks of desperation, don't you think?

Originally posted by ares834
And I don't know if you realize this, but these character are able to perform feats that no human is capable of.

Hence, HE's "feat" being far more impressive than Ollie's as it blows his "feat" away in every factor that is required in the "accuracy" involved in shooting moving objects. Like midflight arrows and alien speeders.

Originally posted by KingD19
Yet of the two, the recurve has made further shots, more accurate shots, faster shots, etc...

Also you're assuming his bow is just a bow he got from Wal-Mart. It's clearly custom made considering not only can he fold it up, but he can whack super durable aliens without it breaking. His quiver is incredibly high tech and has an auto selector. Why would his bow just be an ordinary, run of the mill bow?

None of those facts matter to them.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Pls quote w/c "question marks" you mean and how these addresses what I posted.

And, unlike you, I actually quoted what you said and addressed them individually. So drop the wholly unoriginal "had you read" schtick. You have no ground to stand on there.

facepalm

You tell me to drop "have you read shtick" yet here you are misreading my post yet again... I said quotation marks not question marks...

And here I even quoted the word in question.

Originally posted by ares834
"gunkata"

These quotation marks around the word mean I don't literally mean he used it but rather something vaguely similar. I then clarified it in a subsequent post regardless.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Slightly misquoted, maybe. Irrelevant as the basic gist was there as well as an explanation on why the word "almost" was silly and thus disregarded.

I'm not sure strawmanning means what you think it means....

And the "oh noes! He strawmanzd me" schtick kinda reeks of desperation, don't you think?

Not as much as stramaning in the first place... Also, like I said these characters are borderline super human anyway. One of them having senses greater than any human isn't that crazy considering they already are far more skilled any human. (Bringing up smell was, admittedly, a bit of a joke on my part though and not meant to be taken seriously.)

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Hence, HE's "feat" being far more impressive than Ollie's as it blows his "feat" away in every factor that is required in the "accuracy" involved in shooting moving objects. Like midflight arrows and alien speeders.

Except it's not a more accurate shot. I've never understood why people hang onto this feat so much. Frankly, Clint's helecarrier shot was more impressive (and thinking about it, it may be better than any of Ollie's.)

Anyway of to bed.

Originally posted by ares834
facepalm

You tell me to drop "have you read shtick" yet here you are misreading my post yet again... I said quotation marks not question marks...

Gotta admit. I misread that one. But it's 3am. Getting a bit crosseyed here. But misreading a single word due to sleepiness =/= not reading your posts at all. Learn to differentiate.

Originally posted by ares834
And here I even quoted the word in question.

These quotation marks around the word mean I don't literally mean he used it but rather something vaguely similar. I then clarified it in a subsequent post regardless.

The only similarity or relationship between HE's accuracy and Gunkata (IIRC) is that somewhere between the two, you need to do predictive targeting.... But whilst one requires knowledge in the optimal statistical targeting to optimize killzones, the other requires intuitive calculation and targeting for pinpoint accuracy. Worlds apart.

And I did mention that if you're meaning the fact that some predicting is involved between, then you're actually starting to get it to some tiny extent.

Originally posted by ares834
Not as much as stramaning in the first place...

If you're still accusing me of strawmanning, you need to look up what strawmanning means.

Originally posted by ares834
Also, like I said these characters are borderline super human anyway. One of them having senses greater than any human isn't that crazy considering they already are far more skilled any human. (Bringing up smell was, admittedly, a bit of a joke on my part though.)

Except "borderline" super senses. (as if "borderline" super senses could actually explain how he did it) was never alluded to anywhere in the move.

Super accuracy, tho....

Originally posted by ares834
Except it's not a more accurate shot. I've never understood why people find hang onto this feat so.much. Frankly, Clint's helecarrier shot was more impressive (and thinking about it, it may be better than any of Ollie's.)

Except it IS an accurate shot in every criteria that would deem it an accurate shot...

Originally posted by KingD19
Yet of the two, the recurve has made further shots, more accurate shots, faster shots, etc...

Also you're assuming his bow is just a bow he got from Wal-Mart. It's clearly custom made considering not only can he fold it up, but he can whack super durable aliens without it breaking. His quiver is incredibly high tech and has an auto selector. Why would his bow just be an ordinary, run of the mill bow?

Would you mind posting links to these facts? I've been an archer for 8 years and these don't hold up to what I know about bows. But who knows, I'm not perfect, so if you could post links to these it would be great.

Besides, you talk as if only Hawkeye has access to high tech weaponry and Oliver just bought his bow from some hunting shop. In fact, Oliver's bow WAS mentioned in the show to be custom made. We don't know anything from Hawkeye's bow.

Now that I think about it, I feel like the lot of you are making too many assumptions about Hawkeye, like

1. his bow is probably custom made
2. he can probably speed shoot
3. he can probably shoot an arrow from mid flight

despite the fact that we have no feats to back this up.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Now that I think about it, I feel like the lot of you are making too many assumptions about Hawkeye, like

1. his bow is probably custom made
2. he can probably speed shoot
3. he can probably shoot an arrow from mid flight

despite the fact that we have no feats to back this up.

1. The tech attachements on his bow alone plus the fact that it is collapsible and durable enough to strike superhumans effectively would imply that wouldn't it? Not an expert on bows but wouldn't the fact that he was able to hit the targets that he hit at those range and manage to penetrate armored targets imply that the bow had superior range/penetration than a normal recurve?
2. There are 3 instances of this. One was when a Chitauri snuck up on him from behind, he turned around and head shotted the Chitauri before it could strike. The other was when he knee-slid under a Chitauri melee strike at his head and drew+fired a split second when he stood up. Plus his melee fight with BW where he fired off a few quick shots as they were fighting.
3. No one said he did this. Just that his "feats" (like the one that has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread) poop on mid arrow shooting.

Those certainly seem like "feats" to me.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. The tech attachements on his bow alone plus the fact that it is collapsible and durable enough to strike superhumans effectively would imply that wouldn't it? Not an expert on bows but wouldn't the fact that he was able to hit the targets that he hit at those range and manage to penetrate armored targets imply that the bow had superior range/penetration than a normal recurve?
2. There are 3 instances of this. One was when a Chitauri snuck up on him from behind, he turned around and head shotted the Chitauri before it could strike. The other was when he knee-slid under a Chitauri melee strike at his head and drew+fired a split second when he stood up. Plus his melee fight with BW where he fired off a few quick shots as they were fighting.
3. No one said he did this. Just that his "feats" (like the one that has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread) poop on mid arrow shooting.

Those certainly seem like "feats" to me.

When you say "normal recurve", what exactly do you mean? Because recurve bows comes in many different poundages and designs, and all of them will shoot differently.

As for his speed shooting, I have to admit I forgot about those scenes you mentioned. Thanks for reminding me. Still think Oliver shoots faster based on more consistent feats.

Hawkeye's best shooting feats are mostly done against stationary targets where he has lots of time to prepare (hellicarrier and USB shot). The blind shot against the chitauri speedster was awesome, but it was done against an object moving at a (seemingly) constant velocity that was travelling in a straight trajectory.

Oliver's feats on the other hand were usually done when he didn't have that much time to prepare. Shooting an arrow into a gun barrel for example, IIRC he had to pull an arrow from his quiver, nock it, draw and shoot the gun barrel as his opponent was aiming the gun. Shooting the arrow in mid flight, again he didn't have time to prepare for that shot. Shooting a bow from a motorcycle against another vehicle, etc.

Different kinds of skill required to do the feats, but I won't say Hawkeye's feats are BETTER. Fancier yes, but considering the situations they happened in, Oliver's feats are pretty much on the same difficulty level.

Hawk
Arrow
Arrow

I see Hawkeye sweeping

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Hawk
Arrow
Arrow

Kinda my thoughts as well. Or if anything, the matches should at least be close.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Kinda my thoughts as well. Or if anything, the matches should at least be close.

Hawk wins round 1 because his arrows are more powerful, not as versatile, but defiantly more destructive.

Arrow wins round 2 because as we saw with the black widow fight. Hawk has trouble with up close shooting against a quick opponent. Oliver, however, has shown better skill while Hawk has really only shown more accuracy.

Round 3 goes to arrow because Hawk (Even with his bow) got put down by BW and she was holding back.