A cover?
You never saw the cover of Archie grabbing onto a pole in exaggerated fear while two men try and yank him off it? It's on Superdickery.
Then there's the one where Daredevil has a little mutant looking thing grabbing his leg, while he's crying out about it.
They're out there. And so are covers with females.that.deserve every criticism they get, like a Superman/Batman with girls in a tentacle rape implied situation..
Originally posted by roughrider
No, the point is, show us any cover with Tim Drake looking like a terrified soon-to-be rape victim (even if that's not what's about to happen, but it conveys the message.) We won't find such a cover because they consider it unmanly to show a male hero look like that, but they think it's more realistic to show a female hero like that.You saying such a thing would happen isn't enough. It's what DC has actually published and put on a cover that matters.
Lol maybe when Joker paralyzes Tim and takes pictures of him naked. But I can't show you that cover because it hasn't happened yet. Its an issue and comic cover that is unique to Barbara. The entire reason that cover exists is because of those events.
Originally posted by JayDaDon
You missed the point when I said Tim Drake would have been just as scared and broken up if he was put in the same situation or cover pose. That breaks down the whole argument of sexism.
Keyword 'if'.
Namely, you have to use 'If,' because it hasn't happened on a comic cover, and certainly not on a comic cover not even close to being on a story where Tim's captured by the Joker.
A hypothetical vs an actual is a false equivalency.
If there is such a cover, feel free to correct me, but I'm pretty darn sure there isn't.
Barbara, like Tim, was still quite young when the Joker came and gave her the first reality check of her career. It was mostly all fun and games before that. We can't even begin to compare her to male heroes like Batman or Superman at that point. We gotta compare her to another young, less experienced, less hardened hero for the comparison to even begin to make sense.
Multiple problems with that. One, in the original story, she'd already retired from being Batgirl. Two, she's more seasoned now anyway and deals with all kinds of serial killers and the like in the nu52. Three, she actually wasn't shown crying or terrified like that in the original story anyway.
Your reasoning is all Watsonian- that is to say, in-universe, when ultimately the problems are Doylist in nature- that is to say, creators and editors choosing to put stuff in- but in any case, your Watsonian reasoning is wrong too. In addition to the outside story reason of 'the writers didn't want this, and now that he knows the issues nor does the artist.'
Originally posted by One-Punch
Speaking of Thanos... does anybody remember the time when the Cabal massacred the X-men on an alternate Earth?Here's Xavier broken and vulnerable, crying blood, forced by Thanos to beg for death.
To top it all off, Thanos even has a 'rapey' looking face. And given that Thanos is literally in love with death, maybe its not far off.
And, let me guess, in the following pages, something happens which changes the situation? People come to his rescue, or he rallies himself?
A cover- especially of one that contains nothing similar to what happens inside the book- is a heck of a lot different than one part of a story taken on it's own. No-one reading that comic sees just that one page. It has surrounding context.
A cover presents the comic to the audience and stands on it's own. An individual page or panel doesn't.
Originally posted by cdtm
I agree. I can't think of one instance of a male being put in that position.Not one. 😈
Context- Invincible is a fairly dark book, has been for yeeeears, where bad stuff happens to characters of both sexes, and that was handled seriously with repercussions, and was not just a stand alone or throwaway image.
Batgirl is currently a light hearted book where people don't get torn apart in gorey ways, is actively trying to recruit female readings, and yadda yadda. Again, the creators are not for the cover.
It's a false equivalency.
If a book was being aimed at recruiting young teen males, then it suddenly had the male hero in such a position? Heck yea there'd be- and *should* be- complaints!
Originally posted by krisblaze
Hell, Dick got raped...
Which was highly criticized and often credited with why Devin Grayson never worked at DC again. So, yea, context.
This 'sometimes bad stuff happens to guy characters too,' is not much of a defense.
You lot do know about 'Women in Refrigerators,' right?
Originally posted by One-Punch
Do you have hard evidence showing that female heroes are shown 'victimized' significantly more than male heroes in mainstream comics? This sounds like unfounded gender activists propaganda to me. I'd like to see some proof.And I wonder how many of people who complained on Twitter about this supposedly controversial cover were actually 'comic fans', and not just online social justice bandwagon hoppers who happen to be tagged.
Ah, a classic deflection. "Those who complained aren't real fans, we can just ignore them."
Even though, y'know, the comic is very popular among tumblr/twitter circles of female comic fans who talk about this stuff...
Do you read the current Batgirl? Or are you being the proverbial fake-geek-boy, talking like you know what's going on when you're really just describing yourself not knowing, and attacking from the outside because you perceive it to be a 'social justice bandwagon'?
I.e. you look to me like every bit the bandwagon hopper.
Originally posted by One-Punch
*Pic of saying SJWs find everything misogynistic*
Ironically an excellent example of what's wrong with the counter-complainers- because you say that people who complain about misogyny find everything misogynistic, you're completely writing off listening to any specific example
Remember, it is the people who complained about the complainers who freaked out much more here, and who tend to overreact in these situations. Like Endless Mike pointed out.
So, context.
The side that complained the loudest, acted the worst, and is least likely to actually be who the book is aiming to pick up, is you lot, complaining about feminism and the like, and not those who had an issue with the cover.
There's basically three sides in this. DC itself, the fans who had a problem with the cover, and the people who had a problem with the fans who had a problem with the cover. The first two have acted reasonably. The third hasn't.
In the complainers of the complainers defense, they're coming fairly fresh off the Spider-Woman controversy, which was a pretty petty backlash (God forbid they crack open Daredevil and see all the Black Widow cheese.)
And like I said, I'm still trying to process how someone claiming self defense lessons = blaming the victim and setting feminism back.
The flood of twitterers and redditers looking for something to get offended about, and media outlets looking to exploit any controversy they could find, does social issues no favors.
But I DO see your points about appropriateness, though.
Originally posted by Q99
Keyword 'if'.Namely, you have to use 'If,' because it hasn't happened on a comic cover, and certainly not on a comic cover not even close to being on a story where Tim's captured by the Joker.
That's not what I said. I said it hasn't happened to Tim in a COMIC. If it happened in a comic storyline maybe we would get a cover like that. Because that's the entire reason we got the batgirl one.
Originally posted by Q99
And, let me guess, in the following pages, something happens which changes the situation? People come to his rescue, or he rallies himself?A cover- especially of one that contains nothing similar to what happens inside the book- is a heck of a lot different than one part of a story taken on it's own. No-one reading that comic sees just that one page. It has surrounding context.
A cover presents the comic to the audience and stands on it's own. An individual page or panel doesn't.
Actually Xavier gets butchered, and his planet is blown to smithereens. That fact that you'd assume (wrongly) he'd rebound just because he's male reveals much about your own 'gendered' biases.
It seems like you're deeming the comic industry sexist based off of innocuous comic book covers instead of the actual content within the books, even though (and this is something you admit) comic book covers are superficial and rarely reflect the actual writing in the book.
Does that sound like an intelligent way to analyze sexism in comics? It sure as hell doesn't to me.
Ah, a classic deflection. "Those who complained aren't real fans, we can just ignore them."Even though, y'know, the comic is very popular among tumblr/twitter circles of female comic fans who talk about this stuff...
Do you read the current Batgirl? Or are you being the proverbial fake-geek-boy, talking like you know what's going on when you're really just describing yourself not knowing, and attacking from the outside because you perceive it to be a 'social justice bandwagon'?
I.e. you look to me like every bit the bandwagon hopper.
You accuse me of deflection, yet you completely ignored my question. You claimed comics were sexist because female heroes were shown victimized more than males. I'll ask again, do you have hard evidence of this?
I want actual evidence for your claims; for your claim that the comic industry is sexist, and for your claim that the majority of the twitter outrage for the cover were actually from comic book fans.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I think the problem is more the reaction. It should logically go like this:Complainer: I don't like this, because X
Counter-complainer: I disagree, because Y
But instead it more often goes like this:
Complainer: I don't like this, because X
Counter-complainer: [b]You radical feminazi tumblr SJW PC-obsessed ****! How dare you express an opinion that differs with mine! I hope you get raped and killed!
[/B]
Originally posted by cdtm
And like I said, I'm still trying to process how someone claiming self defense lessons = blaming the victim and setting feminism back.
Originally posted by Q99 Remember, it is the people who complained about the complainers who freaked out much more here, and who tend to overreact in these situations. Like Endless Mike pointed out.So, context.
Yes but I don't necessarily agree with the complaints. As I don't read current DC I can't say whether the cover fit the tone of the book or anything, and I can see how it portrays the character as seemingly weak and helpless (yet a lot of covers have done that, like the Thing one I pointed out):
Also I don't see any rape/sexual connotations to the cover. But that's just my view, I don't object to people voicing different opinions about the cover.
It seems like you're deeming the comic industry sexist based off of innocuous comic book covers instead of the actual content within the books, even though (and this is something you admit) comic book covers are superficial and rarely reflect the actual writing in the book.
Yes, but I believe his point was that the covers are what are intended to grab attention to the book, they're the part created specifically to try to advertise the book and get you interested in it, and if you don't read it, they're the only thing you'll see. So even if the cover has absolutely nothing to do with what happens in the book itself, it still sends a message, being the first part of the book you see and the part that makes you decide if you want to look at it or not.
Like for example so many of the Silver Age covers on Superdickery were so ridiculous (and usually completely misrepresented the content of the book), the idea was to get people to think "Why is Superman doing that? I have to read this and find out!" The Superdickery meme proves that even if there were explanations/extenuating circumstances in the actual comics themselves, if you just take the covers by themselves it makes Superman look like a psychopath.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yes, but I believe his point was that the covers are what are intended to grab attention to the book, they're the part created specifically to try to advertise the book and get you interested in it, and if you don't read it, they're the only thing you'll see. So even if the cover has absolutely nothing to do with what happens in the book itself, it still sends a message, being the first part of the book you see and the part that makes you decide if you want to look at it or not.Like for example so many of the Silver Age covers on Superdickery were so ridiculous (and usually completely misrepresented the content of the book), the idea was to get people to think "Why is Superman doing that? I have to read this and find out!" The Superdickery meme proves that even if there were explanations/extenuating circumstances in the actual comics themselves, if you just take the covers by themselves it makes Superman look like a psychopath.
Yes a lot of comic covers are designed to grab attention. But that reveals a pettiness for sales, and not necessarily wide spread sexism in the comic industry. Besides, the Batgirl cover wasn't the main cover, it was a variant among many, and a relatively rare variant too, so very few people would've actually seen it on print.
Q99 made a specific claim that comics were sexist because they portrayed female heroes victimized more than male heroes. All I'm asking is for him to provide hard evidence of this.
So far my question has been ignored, twice.
Originally posted by StyleTime
😂 👆I don't know what incident you're talking about, so you'll have to enlighten me. I'm guessing here, but some may have seen it as an unfortunate case of "learn not to get raped, lady", rather than "quit raping people, rapist." They saw the blame being put on the wrong person. Again, I am just guessing based on past experiences.
Originally posted by cdtm
https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&ei=1pcRVaCqMo61yASVqYHICQ&q=miss+america+self+defense&oq=miss+america+s&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.35i39j0l4.2313.10444.0.11208.22.18.4.8.8.0.299.3084.0j14j3.17.0.msedr...0...1c.1.62.mobile-gws-hp..2.20.1679.3.47Rmll--Y50
🤪
Originally posted by One-Punch
That's rediculous.🤪
Originally posted by cdtm
https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&ei=1pcRVaCqMo61yASVqYHICQ&q=miss+america+self+defense&oq=miss+america+s&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.35i39j0l4.2313.10444.0.11208.22.18.4.8.8.0.299.3084.0j14j3.17.0.msedr...0...1c.1.62.mobile-gws-hp..2.20.1679.3.47Rmll--Y50
Well then yeah, what I said earlier. Her answer implies, even if she didn't intend it to, that rape victims should learn to better defend themselves, rather than pointing out that rapists should stop raping. That is the problem some had with it.
Of course, other people say that rape is a real threat, and women should know how to protect themselves. The "dissenters" typically failed at articulating their point though, and instead wind up going "those crazy feminists are so dumb and whiney".
These answers are complimentary rather than antagonistic, but everyone gets so caught up on arguing with "the other side" that they never see that.
Women should be able to crab walk naked down the street at 1:00 AM without fear of rape. While we fight for that ideal, there are real dangers they should be aware of, as well as ways of protecting themselves.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Women should be able to crab walk naked down the street at 1:00 AM without fear of rape. While we fight for that ideal, there are real dangers they should be aware of, as well as ways of protecting themselves.
It's not like self-defense is only applicable when you're being raped either...
Originally posted by krisblazelol, but Miss USA never claimed that she wanted to teach anybody to defend themselves- she said that "More awareness [of sexual assault on college campuses] is important so that women can learn to protect themselves"
If you agree with this, then there's no reason to criticize or attack those who want to teach women how to defend themselves.It's not like self-defense is only applicable when you're being raped either...
I think saying "I want to teach women self-defense" is very different than saying "We should spread awareness of rape at university so that women learn taekwondo".
Women shouldn't learn self defense in order to be safe at university. Rapists should stop raping so that women can be safe at university.
Not to mention, it's pretty silly advice anyways. Most of the cases of campus sexual assault involve assault from a peer/close friend, in a social situation. Not getting jumped on the street.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Do people not realize that variant covers don't have to be related to the book in any way? Hell we've had whole months and alternate cover events highlighting that fact.Marvel Apes for example
I think we've already covered this issue... no pun intended.
As for the self-defense thing, I think that interpretation of people saying it excuses rape is effectively groundless but I don't see what that has to do with the topic of this thread.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I think we've already covered this issue... no pun intended.As for the self-defense thing, I think that interpretation of people saying it excuses rape is effectively groundless but I don't see what that has to do with the topic of this thread.
It's meant to address why someone would simply dismiss a feminist argument.
Basically (And this appliees to the entire political/social spectrum), it's not too surprising that attitudes like "THOSE FEMINISTS" (Or "Those MRA'S) exist if you follow social media and blogs, which is full of faux outrage overreactions, and basically people shouting at each other with their fingers in their ears.