Feminists outraged by Batgirl Cover....DC bows down...

Originally posted by -Pr-

Genuine question: What about rape being implied (for those that believe it's implied) makes it sexist?

Men can and have been raped in comics, in ways far more graphic and traumatising than a cover could ever imply without actually showing it. Or do you honestly believe that it being a cover somehow elevates it past anything that might happen within the comic?

That is a cultural thing that extends beyond comics. Male rape is considered a joke or something that can't happen depending on the context (as we have both seen) in regards to why men don't factor in the situation.

Regarding rape = sexism well I think many think that rape is a line we just shouldn't cross in fiction unless it's actually about the horrific situation and how to deal with it or what it can do to people. Some feel that alot of fiction treats it too lightly and almost glorifies it and see it as a sign towards a general mis treatment of women in society. I don't agree but I do get why some don't like to see rape especially if they are looking at something they think should be fun. That said imo if rape is just a line that shouldn't be crossed I think that should be what you discuss instead of calling people sexist and other charged names. Talk about why you feel it is a subject that isn't a right for what is going on, and that even the implication of it can send the wrong message.

As I said I don't agree but that is what I've seen as the issue with such things. A lot of people see things like that and feel it contributes to the very real issues with rape in society (which isn't helped by the silly comments people on the internet often make). I disagree and have seen no evidence to convince of that being the case, but for a lot of people it is easier to target things like fiction where they can make a change over the much harder and honestly unfair world of reality. I honestly feel for anyone who is reminded of a horrific event by such things, especially when they go in expecting to see something light hearted but I disagree with the idea that anyone who doesn't feel the same is some sexist monster.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Invisible Man getting raped to death is nothing compared to tears on a comic cover, because everyone knows tears are directly connected to rape.

Because Joker is a serial rapist. As opposed to a murderer like the gun and the finger to the head implies. And rape is a worse very very vague implication than the very real and present threat of murder.

Via a ****ing bullet to the head from a revolver.

I mean, whatever sexist. That's alright even though men heroes get their lives ruined on covers all the time. But the rape is a god damned stretch. You think if Batgirl was a real character she'd worry more about his penis than getting shot in the spine again? Even if he did rape her. Do people honestly think her tears would be from fear of rape?

I honestly don't, I was just trying to see another POV.

I don't believe it's sexist for a second, nor do the people I've asked, so I really just wanted to hear more about it from the "other" side.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
That is a cultural thing that extends beyond comics. Male rape is considered a joke or something that can't happen depending on the context (as we have both seen) in regards to why men don't factor in the situation.

Regarding rape = sexism well I think many think that rape is a line we just shouldn't cross in fiction unless it's actually about the horrific situation and how to deal with it or what it can do to people. Some feel that alot of fiction treats it too lightly and almost glorifies it and see it as a sign towards a general mis treatment of women in society. I don't agree but I do get why some don't like to see rape especially if they are looking at something they think should be fun. That said imo if rape is just a line that shouldn't be crossed I think that should be what you discuss instead of calling people sexist and other charged names. Talk about why you feel it is a subject that isn't a right for what is going on, and that even the implication of it can send the wrong message.

As I said I don't agree but that is what I've seen as the issue with such things. A lot of people see things like that and feel it contributes to the very real issues with rape in society (which isn't helped by the silly comments people on the internet often make). I disagree and have seen no evidence to convince of that being the case, but for a lot of people it is easier to target things like fiction where they can make a change over the much harder and honestly unfair world of reality. I honestly feel for anyone who is reminded of a horrific event by such things, especially when they go in expecting to see something light hearted but I disagree with the idea that anyone who doesn't feel the same is some sexist monster.

Oh, I honestly agree with you to an extent.

Anytime I would come across someone who would say those things "trigger" them or anything, though, would be:

IT'S THE ****ING JOKER.

To me, that character is potentially the darkest villain in comics, with absolutely no limit to what he will or won't do. I actually think he would rape Barbara if the mood struck him.

I just believe that he'd rape Batman too.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly don't, I was just trying to see another POV.

I don't believe it's sexist for a second, nor do the people I've asked, so I really just wanted to hear more about it from the "other" side.

Oh, I honestly agree with you to an extent.

Anytime I would come across someone who would say those things "trigger" them or anything, though, would be:

IT'S THE ****ING JOKER.

To me, that character is potentially the darkest villain in comics, with absolutely no limit to what he will or won't do. I actually think he would rape Barbara if the mood struck him.

I just believe that he'd rape Batman too.

He probably would, and from someone who doesn't read batgirl the cover is fine to me. But I'm just answering what I feel is why the label is thrown on as well as some of my thoughts on the larger issue of the whole rape in fiction situation.

Which is that I understand, just I don't think that outrage is the proper response. Just as I don't thinking mocking the issue some may have ( in this case I'm saying that if it is something serious like that) is either as long as they themselves aren't insulting people who don't have an issue with it (which I said is something I strongly disagree with)

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
He probably would, and from someone who doesn't read batgirl the cover is fine to me. But I'm just answering what I feel is why the label is thrown on as well as some of my thoughts on the larger issue of the whole rape in fiction situation.

Which is that I understand, just I don't think that outrage is the proper response. Just as I don't thinking mocking the issue some may have ( in this case I'm saying that if it is something serious like that) is either as long as they themselves aren't insulting people who don't have an issue with it (which I said is something I strongly disagree with)

I think we're actually on the same page, tbh.

I don't like making anyone feel bad. I just have a low tolerance for people who "make up" things to be offended about, and in this case, there are a lot of people doing that, imo.

Not people in this thread mind you. I'm more talking about the crazies on other sites.

I'm not saying you did say it's sexist Paul.

Just saying that sexist is a complaint I can kind of see. But rape is straight up non existant. It's a made up complaint that doesn't actually exist in the picture and it's secondary to the imminent murder she should be afraid of like any human being or something scared of getting blasted in the face.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I'm not saying you did say it's sexist Paul.

Just saying that sexist is a complaint I can kind of see. But rape is straight up non existant. It's a made up complaint that doesn't actually exist in the picture and it's secondary to the imminent murder she should be afraid of like any human being or something scared of getting blasted in the face.

Oh, I wasn't saying you were saying I was, sorry.

There are some people who will tell you rape is worse than murder though. Not me, but some people.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Oh, I wasn't saying you were saying I was, sorry.

There are some people who will tell you rape is worse than murder though. Not me, but some people.

Tbh that's a much more sensitive topic that is prolly best for a separate thread.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Tbh that's a much more sensitive topic that is prolly best for a separate thread.

lol, I think half the stuff in this thread doesn't belong here either.

All of this hoopla over a comic cover.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I
Anytime I would come across someone who would say those things "trigger" them or anything, though, would be:

IT'S THE ****ING JOKER.

To me, that character is potentially the darkest villain in comics, with absolutely no limit to what he will or won't do. I actually think he would rape Barbara if the mood struck him.

I just believe that he'd rape Batman too.

But the thing is, that's utterly not in theme with this Batgirl book, and the writers of the book don't like the cover- at least, not tied to their book. It's actively marketed to younger readers recently. And other more lighthearted books- or even notably less light ones like Wonder Woman which features human sacrifice- got jokier versions of Joker, because Joker is a villain with a lot of versions.

If this had been a Vertigo Batgirl book, or even the prior one, it'd fit more... even then it'd be too much 'portrayed as victim' for my taste (the problem isn't purely what Joker's doing, so much as how Barbara is portrayed/reacting), but you can be sure as heck the reaction would be less major.

Like, imagine if you had the recent 'removed face' Joker on the cover of Tiny Titans. Even just him on his own in his more horror mode would be way out of line, because it doesn't fit in context.

And in the converse, Tiny Titans Joker wouldn't fit in an issue of the prior Batgirl run... though the objections would be fairly different.

(Also, I picture Joker as either asexual, *or* only really interested in Batman. He actually doesn't go the sex route very often, as horrifying as he is. Batman is pretty much the only person who seems 'real' to him, everyone else is a prop. He even merely fakes occasional affection with Harley to manipulate her, but that is a total act)

Btw, I thought I'd share a 'Batgirl in Distress' pic I do like:

Batgirl's stabbed. She's clearly in trouble. And look at her eyes. Look how massively different the message of this cover is theme wise.

Barbara's not victimized for all that she's literally bleeding dangerously, she is a hero in big trouble. Even in a worse situation, the context presents a very different picture.

Originally posted by -Pr-
lol, I think half the stuff in this thread doesn't belong here either.

All of this hoopla over a comic cover.

sure but like gamer gate and stuff is still the same general discussion. The whole 'how bad is being raped?" is touchy in a different way imo

Originally posted by Q99
But the thing is, that's utterly not in theme with this Batgirl book, and the writers of the book don't like the cover- at least, not tied to their book. It's actively marketed to younger readers recently. And other more lighthearted books- or even notably less light ones like Wonder Woman which features human sacrifice- got jokier versions of Joker, because Joker is a villain with a lot of versions.

If this had been a Vertigo Batgirl book, or even the prior one, it'd fit more... even then it'd be too much 'portrayed as victim' for my taste (the problem isn't purely what Joker's doing, so much as how Barbara is portrayed/reacting), but you can be sure as heck the reaction would be less major.

Like, imagine if you had the recent 'removed face' Joker on the cover of Tiny Titans. Even just him on his own in his more horror mode would be way out of line, because it doesn't fit in context.

And in the converse, Tiny Titans Joker wouldn't fit in an issue of the prior Batgirl run... though the objections would be fairly different.

(Also, I picture Joker as either asexual, *or* only really interested in Batman. He actually doesn't go the sex route very often, as horrifying as he is. Batman is pretty much the only person who seems 'real' to him, everyone else is a prop. He even merely fakes occasional affection with Harley to manipulate her, but that is a total act)

Btw, I thought I'd share a 'Batgirl in Distress' pic I do like:

Batgirl's stabbed. She's clearly in trouble. And look at her eyes. Look how massively different the message of this cover is theme wise.

Barbara's not victimized for all that she's literally bleeding dangerously, she is a hero in big trouble. Even in a worse situation, the context presents a very different picture.

I already said I had no problem with it not fitting the theme of the book. If that had been all the writer/DC/the people complaining had cared about, I doubt we'd even be having this conversation.

it's all the extra shit that gets tagged on to it.

and yes, I recognise that those covers are very different.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
sure but like gamer gate and stuff is still the same general discussion. The whole 'how bad is being raped?" is touchy in a different way imo

I suppose so.

Originally posted by -Pr-
lol, I think half the stuff in this thread doesn't belong here either.

All of this hoopla over a comic cover.

Alternate cover even...

If tumblr feminists actually read they'd know that there is more male rape in comics, and that sexual abuse has been tackled up and down in literature for a hundred years.

I just dont see where this new-wave censorship bullshit is coming from

Also lol at me being the shitstarter here when q99 started off the thread by slinging insults 😛

Originally posted by krisblaze
Also lol at me being the shitstarter here when q99 started off the thread by slinging insults 😛

Originally posted by -Pr-
It's borne of experiencing so much shit slinging that you're almost drowning in it. People like Kris for example, have seen the same shit I have, but I'm just too nice to be a **** about it.

Originally posted by krisblaze
If tumblr feminists actually read they'd know that there is more male rape in comics, and that sexual abuse has been tackled up and down in literature for a hundred years.

I just dont see where this new-wave censorship bullshit is coming from

Also lol at me being the shitstarter here when q99 started off the thread by slinging insults 😛

I don't think you were the shitstarter per se. I think the thread itself was made in a fairly shitstarter-y fashion. That said, pretty sure Q99 never called you anything.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Well, when your first and second posts in this thread as soon as the thread is created are about calling people assholes, and about gamergate...

Kinda like your posts. I admit, I laughed and they're funny, but more in the "clearly this is an exaggeration, and he understands that no one is saying most of these things, right?" way.

Originally posted by Q99
But the thing is, that's utterly not in theme with this Batgirl book, and the writers of the book don't like the cover- at least, not tied to their book. It's actively marketed to younger readers recently. And other more lighthearted books- or even notably less light ones like Wonder Woman which features human sacrifice- got jokier versions of Joker, because Joker is a villain with a lot of versions.

If this had been a Vertigo Batgirl book, or even the prior one, it'd fit more... even then it'd be too much 'portrayed as victim' for my taste (the problem isn't purely what Joker's doing, so much as how Barbara is portrayed/reacting), but you can be sure as heck the reaction would be less major.

Like, imagine if you had the recent 'removed face' Joker on the cover of Tiny Titans. Even just him on his own in his more horror mode would be way out of line, because it doesn't fit in context.

And in the converse, Tiny Titans Joker wouldn't fit in an issue of the prior Batgirl run... though the objections would be fairly different.

(Also, I picture Joker as either asexual, *or* only really interested in Batman. He actually doesn't go the sex route very often, as horrifying as he is. Batman is pretty much the only person who seems 'real' to him, everyone else is a prop. He even merely fakes occasional affection with Harley to manipulate her, but that is a total act)

Btw, I thought I'd share a 'Batgirl in Distress' pic I do like:

Batgirl's stabbed. She's clearly in trouble. And look at her eyes. Look how massively different the message of this cover is theme wise.

Barbara's not victimized for all that she's literally bleeding dangerously, she is a hero in big trouble. Even in a worse situation, the context presents a very different picture.

Now that cover is perfectly fine. She's in jeopardy, sure, but there's nothing that suggests she's helpless because she's a woman.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Maybe. If this tumblr thing is that toxic, maybe y'all should avoid it lol.

It is toxic, but it's also hilarious to read some of the shit that comes from it, so it makes up for it.

The artist agrees with the pulling of the cover.

https://games.yahoo.com/news/dc-comics-pulls-controversial-batgirl-180003206.html;_ylt=AwrBTv2U1A5V37gAO_PrFAx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByODJtaWUzBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--

Originally posted by roughrider
The artist agrees with the pulling of the cover.

https://games.yahoo.com/news/dc-comics-pulls-controversial-batgirl-180003206.html;_ylt=AwrBTv2U1A5V37gAO_PrFAx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByODJtaWUzBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--

Is that a new story? Or the one posted earlier in the thread?

Originally posted by roughrider
Now that cover is perfectly fine. She's in jeopardy, sure, but there's nothing that suggests she's helpless because she's a woman.

The problem is that the characters involved change things and add important context. If people are disturbed by the image or the content of Killing Joke they should just say that instead of making it about sexism. If Tim Drake spent an evening helpless at the hands of the Joker he'd be crying like the biggest b*tch ever seen.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
The problem is that the characters involved change things and add important context. If people are disturbed by the image or the content of Killing Joke they should just say that instead of making it about sexism. If Tim Drake spent an evening helpless at the hands of the Joker he'd be crying like the biggest b*tch ever seen.

Tim did good, but like I mentioned earlier he probably shit his pants 😛