Feminists outraged by Batgirl Cover....DC bows down...

roughrider
The artist agrees with the pulling of the cover.

More than agreed, it was his request 🙂

All in all, he's been a class act through this.

-PR-
I already said I had no problem with it not fitting the theme of the book.

You don't, many fans do. Whether or not you personally don't isn't exactly material to the company's decision- I didn't want Hal Jordan back but I understood there was plenty who did.

If that had been all the writer/DC/the people complaining had cared about, I doubt we'd even be having this conversation.

it's all the extra shit that gets tagged on to it.

The extra, legitimate complaints that people are tired of being dragged up in out-of-theme ways on their female characters.

Just because people find something sexist and problematic doesn't make their complaints less valid than 'merely' out of theme. Rather, it means they have additional complaints on the subject.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
The problem is that the characters involved change things and add important context. If people are disturbed by the image or the content of Killing Joke they should just say that instead of making it about sexism.

Except, the problem with that is directly tied to sexism. How female heroines tend to be portrayed more victimized than the male ones (and 'victimized' being the key word- shown as-a-victim, rather than just afraid or in peril, which is common).

Additionally.... does it even matter why? A lot of people who followed the book complained. The artist and company then pulled it.

You know, as is their prerogative whenever a company gets early wind that something might not fly.

Like, remember awhile back when DC was rumored to be killing off John Stewart and the writer-to-be of GL quit before his run started? And then they *didn't* kill off John Stewart even though it was their plan, because the reaction of fans of, "That would be horrible, don't do that!" changed their mind?

It's really not much of a different thing. They, as the makers of a creative product, are allowed to change their mind. Sometimes the reason they change their minds is complaints of sexism, and a number of people overreact when people change their mind in response to such calls, but it's as valid to change their mind about as any other thing. Heck, more-so, because it is an issue that is very sensitive to a lot of people, but a lot of people act like because it's something people are sensitive (or because it involves sexism/feminist/what have you), it shouldn't be listened to... which isn't exactly a solid chain of logic.

A very nice quote I bumped into on the subject:
"The more you dilute the meaning of freedom of expression and censorship, the less you'll recognize it when it actually happens."

A company did a preview of a product. Fans gave feedback. In response to feedback, one of the people directly involved in making part of the product asked for things to be changed.

If this wasn't about a female character being victimized and thus is viewed as a feminist complaint, this wouldn't get any backlash to speak of. Because it is, it gets a disproportionate reaction.

You missed the point when I said Tim Drake would have been just as scared and broken up if he was put in the same situation or cover pose. That breaks down the whole argument of sexism.
Barbara, like Tim, was still quite young when the Joker came and gave her the first reality check of her career. It was mostly all fun and games before that. We can't even begin to compare her to male heroes like Batman or Superman at that point. We gotta compare her to another young, less experienced, less hardened hero for the comparison to even begin to make sense.

From what I've heard, one of the artists pretty much bullied the writer to get the cover on, which the writer wasn't happy about because it went against his theme.

Regardless, I don't see a problem with the cover. I know all about "women in fridges" and a fair bit about gender and class conflicts, and by their nature there's a ton of baggage that makes it impossible to please everyone... Even a hint of weakness or political incorrectness can get the watchdogs barking.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
You missed the point when I said Tim Drake would have been just as scared and broken up if he was put in the same situation or cover pose. That breaks down the whole argument of sexism.
Barbara, like Tim, was still quite young when the Joker came and gave her the first reality check of her career. It was mostly all fun and games before that. We can't even begin to compare her to male heroes like Batman or Superman at that point. We gotta compare her to another young, less experienced, less hardened hero for the comparison to even begin to make sense.

I agree.

And let's not forget poor Jason.

Originally posted by Q99
Except, the problem with that is directly tied to sexism. How female heroines tend to be portrayed more victimized than the male ones (and 'victimized' being the key word- shown as-a-victim, rather than just afraid or in peril, which is common).

Do you have hard evidence showing that female heroes are shown 'victimized' significantly more than male heroes in mainstream comics? This sounds like unfounded gender activists propaganda to me. I'd like to see some proof.

And I wonder how many of people who complained on Twitter about this supposedly controversial cover were actually 'comic fans', and not just online social justice bandwagon hoppers who happen to be tagged.

Originally posted by Galan007
People are such idiots. Promotes rape culture? Lol, give me a f*cking break.

:

Dude, this is nothing. Miss America promoting learning self defense got people up in arms for promoting rape culture. 😘

Because, talking about risk reduction is totally the same thing as blaming the victim.

Originally posted by Q99
[B]Oh hey!

Someone did a cool Superman version, to illustrate how we don't really get this kind of victimization-image with male heroes. I've certainly never seen a cover like that! Even if they're beaten or afraid or captured, the context is usually a lot different.

Change Doomsday to Thor and RageofOlympus would declare it the best comic of all time.

This reminds of the time when Nasa scientist Matt Taylor (forget the fact that he helped land a rover on a speeding comet) was e-bullied by gender activists for a shirt he wore at an interview...even though that shirt was a gift from a female friend.
Source

Or when a university banned the salutations 'Mr, Mrs, and Ms' because it supposedly perpetuated gender discrimination. Ironic because a feminist (Gloria Steinem) coined the term 'Ms.' for unattached women to use, instead of always being defined by the man she marries (i.e., Mrs).
Source

This super uptight PC culture we have is maddening. Now we have people complaining this Batgirl comic cover is sexist. People are allowed to complain, but it doesn't mean their complaints are worth listening to, especially when they're based more on feelings than actual evidence sexism.

Originally posted by One-Punch
Do you have hard evidence showing that female heroes are shown 'victimized' significantly more than male heroes in mainstream comics? This sounds like unfounded gender activists propaganda to me. I'd like to see some proof.

And I wonder how many of people who complained on Twitter about this supposedly controversial cover were actually 'comic fans', and not just online social justice bandwagon hoppers who happen to be tagged.

They're not. Male heroes are victimised far more than female ones.

Primarily because there are far more Male superheroes than female ones, but it's not just that.

Weak and terrified, yes. Crying, helpless at a villain's mercy, with no help in sight (the 'one character is in danger, a friend is there to help,' is an old standby, since of course it implies they'll get free), and in a reference to a sexualized story?

I'd like an example.

It might not exactly fit, but I can show you a cover where a male hero is at the mercy of a villain and begging for his life, with his friends (the cavalry) dead around him.

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/fantastic-four/556-15.jpg

Originally posted by One-Punch
This reminds of the time when Nasa scientist Matt Taylor (forget the fact that he helped land a rover on a speeding comet) was e-bullied by gender activists for a shirt he wore at an interview...even though that shirt was a gift from a female friend.
Source

Or when a university banned the salutations 'Mr, Mrs, and Ms' because it supposedly perpetuated gender discrimination. Ironic because a feminist (Gloria Steinem) coined the term 'Ms.' for unattached women to use, instead of always being defined by the man she marries (i.e., Mrs).
Source

This super uptight PC culture we have is maddening. Now we have people complaining this Batgirl comic cover is sexist. People are allowed to complain, but it doesn't mean their complaints are worth listening to, especially when they're based more on feelings than actual evidence sexism.

I think the problem is more the reaction. It should logically go like this:

Complainer: I don't like this, because X

Counter-complainer: I disagree, because Y

But instead it more often goes like this:

Complainer: I don't like this, because X

Counter-complainer: You radical feminazi tumblr SJW PC-obsessed ****! How dare you express an opinion that differs with mine! I hope you get raped and killed!

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I think the problem is more the reaction. It should logically go like this:

Complainer: I don't like this, because X

Counter-complainer: I disagree, because Y

But instead it more often goes like this:

Complainer: I don't like this, because X

Counter-complainer: [b]You radical feminazi tumblr SJW PC-obsessed ****! How dare you express an opinion that differs with mine! I hope you get raped and killed! [/B]

😂

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I think the problem is more the reaction. It should logically go like this:

Complainer: I don't like this, because X

Counter-complainer: I disagree, because Y

But instead it more often goes like this:

Complainer: I don't like this, because X

Counter-complainer: [b]You radical feminazi tumblr SJW PC-obsessed ****! How dare you express an opinion that differs with mine! I hope you get raped and killed! [/B]

^extra funny with the Thanos sig.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
You missed the point when I said Tim Drake would have been just as scared and broken up if he was put in the same situation or cover pose. That breaks down the whole argument of sexism.
Barbara, like Tim, was still quite young when the Joker came and gave her the first reality check of her career. It was mostly all fun and games before that. We can't even begin to compare her to male heroes like Batman or Superman at that point. We gotta compare her to another young, less experienced, less hardened hero for the comparison to even begin to make sense.

No, the point is, show us any cover with Tim Drake looking like a terrified soon-to-be rape victim (even if that's not what's about to happen, but it conveys the message.) We won't find such a cover because they consider it unmanly to show a male hero look like that, but they think it's more realistic to show a female hero like that.

You saying such a thing would happen isn't enough. It's what DC has actually published and put on a cover that matters.

Speaking of Thanos... does anybody remember the time when the Cabal massacred the X-men on an alternate Earth?

Here's Xavier broken and vulnerable, crying blood, forced by Thanos to beg for death.

To top it all off, Thanos even has a 'rapey' looking face. And given that Thanos is literally in love with death, maybe its not far off.

On the 'victimization' scale from 1 to 10, I wonder where this would be placed.

Answer:

Spoiler:
0 out of 10 ...because Xavier is male, and male heroes are never victimized in comics

But seriously, someone give me hard evidence that shows that female heroes are victimized more than male heroes in comics. I'm curious, there must be research showing this sexist disparity in comics, if not then it almost seems like this complaint about sexism in comics is...baseless?

Originally posted by One-Punch
Speaking of Thanos... does anybody remember the time when the Cabal massacred the X-men on an alternate Earth?

Here's Xavier broken and vulnerable, crying blood, forced by Thanos to beg for death.

To top it all off, Thanos even has a 'rapey' looking face. And given that Thanos is literally in love with death, maybe its not far off.

On the 'victimization' scale from 1 to 10, I wonder where this would be placed.

Answer:

Spoiler:
0 out of 10 ...because Xavier is male, and male heroes are never victimized in comics

But seriously, someone give me hard evidence that shows that female heroes are victimized more than male heroes in comics. I'm curious, there must be research showing this sexist disparity in comics, if not then it almost seems like this complaint about sexism in comics is...baseless?

I wonder why so many people can't understand the simple request of a cover example. Not individual panels...a cover. (Am I speaking English? I think so.)That's the first thing you see, and it's what the publisher and editor are using to sell the issue. In all the pages of this thread, no one has come up with a male hero parallel to the Batgirl cover.

Originally posted by roughrider
No, the point is, show us any cover with Tim Drake looking like a terrified soon-to-be rape victim (even if that's not what's about to happen, but it conveys the message.) We won't find such a cover because they consider it unmanly to show a male hero look like that, but they think it's more realistic to show a female hero like that.

I agree. I can't think of one instance of a male being put in that position.

https://www.google.com/search?q=daredevil+monster+grabbing+leg+comic&biw=534&bih=239&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=5XwQVaTdI4qgNrX7grAC&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=invincible+rape&imgrc=z3c4VzA53vQY7M%253A%3B3ZgB32OCti4I6M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fabload.de%252Fimg%252Finvincible1102014digirgujd.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fscans-daily.dreamwidth.org%252F4676905.html%3B1988%3B3056

Not one. 😈

Hell, Dick got raped...