The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

Originally posted by psmith81992
You've basically spent the last few pages making things up without any basis whatsoever. Vitiate is a [b]living spirit and he can exist as one for as long as he wants. [/B]

"Living" spirit is an arbitrary definition you have applied yourself.

As for the point at hand, he'd get gradually weaker and weaker, just like Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If Vitiate could have destroyed Revan or the protags then why didn't he on Ziost? His line about not wanting to is obviously bullshit.

If you meant Yavin 4, I was given the impression the Emperor didn't really care, and that Revan was demonstrating hubris in believing the Emperor would decide to face him. I certainly wasn't given the impression he was afraid or fleeing.

There is also the implication he has plans for the Wrath, whatever those may be.

And I assume this particular point is, in comparison, is well substantiated?

"Living" spirit is an arbitrary definition you have applied yourself.

As for the point at hand, he'd get gradually weaker and weaker, just like Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Did you mean Yavin 4? I haven't played Ziost yet so I can't comment.

No, Ziost. Are you ok with some spoilers?

Doesn't matter, he's going to argue this to death, S66 style.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Doesn't matter, he's going to argue this to death, S66 style.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, Ziost. Are you ok with some spoilers?

And jeez, Revan is still around?

No, I just added him cuz you were talking about him.

Originally posted by psmith81992
It's not an arbitrary definition, it's a CLEAR definition that separates Vitiates from every other sith spirit in the mythos. Just because you don't want to accept it doesn't make it any less true.

Uh-huh.

Seeing how:
1. This hasn't shown to be accurate on any level, in fact the exact opposite
and
2. Exar Kun shed his body using Sadow's alchemy and was confined to his temples. Vitiate basically does his version of essence transfer but does it on a much higher level. So for the millionth time, it's not the same. We're all trying to tell you this.

2. Yet by your own admission the technique is that same, and thus they'd share the same properties. Unless you can provide some evidence that the Emperor's technique is more "sophisticated" that make him exempt from the norm, then we should assume that the Emperor would suffer the same effects.

P.S. The only reason Kun couldn't leave Yavin 4 was because he was trapped by a Wall of Light, but that doesn't make his nature any different from Vitiate, just his capabilities.

1. What isn't exactly? And what is the exact opposite?

2. Yet by your own admission the technique is that same, and thus they'd share the same properties. Unless you can provide some evidence that the Emperor's technique is more "sophisticated" that make him exempt from the norm, then we should assume that the Emperor would suffer the same effects

P.S. The only reason Kun couldn't leave Yavin 4 was because he was trapped by a Wall of Light, but that doesn't make his nature any different from Vitiate, just his capabilities.

Originally posted by psmith81992
The fact that sith spirits get weaker over time. Vitiate only got stronger, Nadd didn't lose any of his power, neither did Kun. So you're wrong.

And yes, Exar Kun did lose his power over time:

Exar Kun passed the millennia in uneasy slumber.

...

Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active.

--Taken from the Jedi Academy Sourcebook

No, by my admission the techniques are NOT the same. You want to claim they're the same, that's on you to prove. The emperor can transfer his essence into thousands of thousands of people (see: ziost). Exar Kun was confined to his temple and was barely able to take control of Kyp. Nadd wasn't able to take control of anybody. Nothing about the Sith Emperor's spirit is remotely similar to anyone else.

Anyway, Exar Kun like the Sith Emperor, artificially removed his spirit from his body:

Even as the Jedi approach, Exar Kun prepares to himself to unleash his powerful spirit... to shed the chains of his mortal body and run rampant throughout the cosmos!

Sound familiar? Its exactly what the Sith Emperor did. The differences you refer to are differences of power, the Sith Emperor is significantly if not vastly more powerful than Exar Kun, so of course his abilities will be more potent.

That doesn't make them of a different nature, they just possess differing strengths.

Considering Exar Kun destroyed him with a single Force blast, I question that.

Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active.

And your exempt from proving your stance? OK.

Anyway, Exar Kun like the Sith Emperor, artificially removed his spirit from his body:

Sound familiar? Its exactly what the Sith Emperor did. The differences you refer to are differences of power, the Sith Emperor is significantly if not vastly more powerful than Exar Kun, so of course his abilities will be more potent.

That doesn't make them of a different nature, they just possess differing strengths.

Psmith, there is no reason to debate with him. Even members like Selenial admit he will continue debating forever. Just move on.

Yea that was the last of my argumentative posts concerning this topic. It's pretty obvious that there's no need to discuss it further.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Using an amulet.

Ok.. Kun lost his power. Nadd did not.. Vitiate actually grew stronger. He went from "slumber because too weak" to "Yavin IV" to "lets destroy Ziost. So your entire point fails regarding similarities between Vitiate and other "spirits".

Yes..Kun removed his spirit from his body.. But Vitiate used essence transfer. Had Kun even known the technique, he would have tried to inhabit Qel Droma's body when he went looking for him a year later.

Regardless what is important is that they are artificial spirits, I fail to see how the ability to transfer your essence into another being would somehow make one immune to the effects all spirits are subject to.

I've already outlined all the ways they are not even close to being similar. And you're still stuck on "well they BOTH removed their spirits from their bodies so its the same". It's not. Live with it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Psmith, there is no reason to debate with him. Even members like Selenial admit he will continue debating forever. Just move on.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The point is it doesn't matter how powerful the Sith Emperor grows, he will always be limited by his physical form, and he will always be more powerful in spiritual form. That's just how it is. Whatever the Emperor has achieved he remains a being of flesh and blood, or at least when he is housed in a fleshy body. Such a body can only channel so much power at any given time without being destroyed.

Case in point:

Arranging the Jedi on the outside points of the Grand Temple, Dorsk stood alone on the observation deck, atop a Force apex. All the Jedi channeled their power through him, and surrendering fully to the Force, Dorsk shoved the Star Destroyers end-over-end out of the star system in what possibly is the most powerful use of Force Push in recorded history. The enormous Force power flowing through him overpowered his body, burning through it and killing him. As Kyp raced up the temple to catch Dorsk, he uttered his final words: "They're gone, my friend".

--Taken from Wookieepedia

The physical body can only channel so much Force energy without being damaged, it is a conduit and like any conduit can be overloaded.

The same applies to midichlorians, which all living organisms possess, midichlorians are a medium by which communication with the Force is made, a middle man of sorts. And while the number of midichlorians one possesses does not directly correspond to your strength in the Force, they are nonetheless intrinsic to a beings power and like the body, have limits.

No amount of sorcery is going to free Vitiate from these limits completely, he would have to eradicate them completely, and that means shedding one's physical form in its entirety.

Given enough intellect, knowledge, fortitude and power, Sith alchemy can be used to achieve the seemingly impossible, such as transforming flesh and bone to form vicious Sithspawn such as the imposing Massassi and the unstoppable Terentatek. But Monoliths are something beyond Sithspawn: they are everlasting monstrosities built not on a foundation of living tissue but of dark side energy itself. Enduring and merciless and quite possibly unkillable, Monoliths plainly illustrate the immeasurable power of their creator and are best avoided at all costs.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

- and transform living Force-sensitive individuals into immortal beings. More importantly, he can utilize these creations as his hosts.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As a spirit there are no limits to the Sith Emperors power, and his command of the Force can be exerted in its entirety.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sorry, but no. The problem with your interpretation of the "power" as the Sith Emperor, as opposed to the planet, conflicts with this description:

...the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet

The Sith Emperor neither engulfed the planet, nor was intrinsic to it as this description implies. He is a being, housed in a singular form, and his presence is contained in that form, he is not everywhere on Kaas all at once.

The dark side nexus on Kaas however does engulf the planet, and is intrinsic to it, the only logical conclusion that can be made here therefore is that the "power" being referred to is the nexus.

FACT. Bubbo.

Concentrate on this information:

Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet

This is a planetary-scale feat, from a single individual (i.e. Vitiate).

Period.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I really don't care, planetary feats are beyond the Sith Emperor without the aid of external sources.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Aww to bad.

The Emperor went on a personal excursion to Voss to learn about the Voss in person, or as in person as the Emperor gets. Which means direct involvement from the Emperor in matters of personal import, if not vital import, is not unprecedented for him.

The fact is he could have done it much quicker, expended less resources, and left his plan, in his own hands, much less vulnerable to being thwarted.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless of how much strength he may have recovered, he was still weakened.

Anyway you've just touched upon my point, the Sith Emperor has a direct uplink to the Force right now, he's effectively a temporary resident in the Netherworld of the Force. I don't really feel I need to explain why that gives him tremendous power to draw on.

Well, it seems I do.

Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet’s Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

And Vitiate didn't die; his essence did not become part of the Force (join so-called Netherworld of the Force) but teleported to Yavin IV to recuperate after a battle on Dromund Kaas where his Voice (i.e. possessed host) was badly damaged by lightsaber strikes from his enemies who also denied him the opportunity to properly recover from the disruption of the ultimate ritual.

Thanks to Revan's actions, Vitiate found the opportunity to draw energy from the developments in Yavin IV to accelerate his recovery.

"The scores of dead have nourished me. I am awakened. And I bring with me--death!" – Sith Emperor

Obsessed with achieving immortality, the Sith Emperor has targeted his own former subjects on the planet Ziost, with every death seemingly extending his dark power.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not the point really.

Point is spirit feats can't be compared with the physical showings of other Force sensitives i.e. Darth Sidious. Because we don't know what Sidious would be capable of with the unique advantages of physical liberation, certainly a lot more than in life.

Sidious - in Dark Empire saga - is also an essence in the works. Yet, you had no issue in using Sidious's DE related demonstrations for comparison.

Vitiate's recent showings are as valid as his earlier showings. And all are to be used for comparison purpose, when necessary.

UPDATE:

Vitiate destroyed planet Ziost.

I only saw one video of it but it was impressive. Can someone else upload a more detailed version?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]UPDATE:

Vitiate destroyed planet Ziost. [/B]

New video tbh?

Its' in the Revan thread for some reason.