Wolverine vs Aliens

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm confused what your position is? Are you saying superman was fighting at human level speed again Faora because no blurry lines or after images created? Or are you saying he was but it just wasn't shown that way. My position Is that sometimes directors want us to see the action for ourselves and that is why they slow it down for us, but that doesn't mean the director thinks they are moving at human level speed. Sometimes people choose to show blurry after images and sometimes they don't. It just really depends. However, when we know people are fast.. they are fast.. period. Wolverine is different as he's shown to be tagged by normal humans without an issue. So his speed is all over the place. Sometimes it's fast... other times doesn't seem so fast. However, this logic that you need to see blurry after images or they are moving at human speed is ridiculous and misses the clear presentation of the movie and the characters.

That was Silents stand on DP not having Superspeed. Because he didn't create blurs while fighting.

And I agreed on that part, about the directors.

I never claimed Wolverine having superspeed.

The Blury image logic was SM, not mine.

Ok forget the blurs. How bout this:

Wolverine has no BT feats so prior to his fight with Barakapool we can assume he's not a bullet timer.

Deadpool has BT feats so prior to his fight with Wolverine we can assume he's a bullet timer.

They fight, they exchange blows. So we assume that either

a.) Wolverine is moving at BT speeds since he's keeping up with DP

or

b.) DP is not moving at BT speeds since he's being hit by Wolverine.

The more logical conclusion would be b. Why? Because a.) we don't see any proof at all that DP or Wolverine are moving at BT speeds in that fight and because b.) it's far more logical to assume that a person who can move at BT speeds can also move at normal speeds than to assume a person who moves at normal speeds can now somehow manage to move at BT speeds.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok forget the blurs. How bout this:

Wolverine has no BT feats so prior to his fight with Barakapool we can assume he's not a bullet timer.

Deadpool has BT feats so prior to his fight with Wolverine we can assume he's a bullet timer.

They fight, they exchange blows. So we assume that either

a.) Wolverine is moving at BT speeds since he's keeping up with DP

or

b.) DP is not moving at BT speeds since he's being hit by Wolverine.

The more logical conclusion would be b. Why? Because a.) we don't see any proof at all that DP or Wolverine are moving at BT speeds in that fight and because b.) it's far more logical to assume that a person who can move at BT speeds can also move at normal speeds than to assume a person who moves at normal speeds can now somehow manage to move at BT speeds.

I agree on the first part.

The part you aren't mentioning is SM claiming DP not having BT speed at all because of the Wolverine fight.

B sounds more reasonable, but SM claimed several times that DP didn't have BT speed at all because of that one fight where he didn't show any blurs.

That's what we are arguing about. And again he spammed the wolverine shit even though I was talking about DP.

Only I never claimed that DP doesn't have BT speed. that is just another one of your lies.

I think it's safer to assume that DP (or BP if you prefer) DIDN'T use BT speed as compared to him NOT HAVING BT speed.

Anyway, just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I think it's safer to assume that DP (or BP if you prefer) DIDN'T use BT speed as compared to him NOT HAVING BT speed.

Anyway, just wanted to add my 2 cents.

That is what I've been saying the whole time, he is lying about me saying that DP doesn't have BT speed.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Only I never claimed that DP doesn't have BT speed. that is just another one of your lies.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Wolverine never fought anyone that was operating at bullet-time.

Sure, huh uh.

That isn't me saying that DP doesn't have BT speed, that was me saying that DP wasn't using his BT speed in the fight...which is something you just agreed with.

You really need to take some reading comprehension courses.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok forget the blurs. How bout this:

Wolverine has no BT feats so prior to his fight with Barakapool we can assume he's not a bullet timer.

Deadpool has BT feats so prior to his fight with Wolverine we can assume he's a bullet timer.

And Freiza has no peronsal speed feats himself outside of being able to best/being vastly superior to characters who have speed feats. Powerscaling, it's a wonderful asset

The more logical conclusion would be b. Why? Because a.) we don't see any proof at all that DP or Wolverine are moving at BT speeds in that fight

Yeah, you can't just make an unquantified statement and say "oh it didn't look fast to me so it isn't!" just because of how something "looked", as there's no indicator of how fast they're going, outside of narrations like "moved several times the speed of sound" or "hit 100 times in a millisecond" or "hit the opponent in the span of a microsecond", which is why judging characters based on speed feats is a far better idea than going with how fast a fight "looked"

It's not like Deadpool was holding back or anything, why assume he was going an order of magnitude slower?

because b.) it's far more logical to assume that a person who can move at BT speeds can also move at normal speeds than to assume a person who moves at normal speeds can now somehow manage to move at BT speeds.

It's like saying Sol Badguy isn't a continent buster even though he stomped Justice who busted a continent, while he was in base form, and that Justice was going easy on him, which is silly

Originally posted by StealthRanger
And Freiza has no peronsal speed feats himself outside of being able to best/being vastly superior to characters who have speed feats. Powerscaling, it's a wonderful asset

Yeah, you can't just make an unquantified statement and say "oh it didn't look fast to me so it isn't!" just because of how something "looked", as there's no indicator of how fast they're going, outside of narrations like "moved several times the speed of sound" or "hit 100 times in a millisecond" or "hit the opponent in the span of a microsecond", which is why judging characters based on speed feats is a far better idea than going with how fast a fight "looked"

It's not like Deadpool was holding back or anything, why assume he was going an order of magnitude slower?

It's like saying Sol Badguy isn't a continent buster even though he stomped Justice who busted a continent, while he was in base form, and that Justice was going easy on him, which is silly

Ok fine let's do it your way. Provide proof that either Wolverine or BP were moving at BT speeds during their fight. You can't simply claim they were going at BT speeds without any proof.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok fine let's do it your way.

My way? Far from it, it's actually how it's done everywhere else (except DBZ and Nardotard infested cesspits anyhow), judging verses by the best feats and powerscaling off those best feats, well disregarding outliers anyhow (though even then, that can be fairly subjective, so one must be careful in declaring things outliers)

Provide proof that either Wolverine or BP were moving at BT speeds during their fight.

As I said, you can't tell how fast something is just by looking at it (if you did, alot of fiction would only be peak human to faster than the eye can see), which is why we judge such things by speed feats they've performed elsewhere, kinda cuts out pointless headache inducing "debates" like this one that go nowhere

You can't simply claim they were going at BT speeds without any proof.

Yeah, you kinda have to explain why powerscaling is invalid here. Only ways powerscaling would be invalid is if either a) he was holding back on purpose (though this isn't stated anywhere, so no reason to believe it) or b) it's a power specific to him that nobody else has and/or has to be 'activated' to be used, thus can't be scaled to anybody (this isn't stated anywhere either, nor is he in any incarnation noted for having speed as a primary power, he's not Quicksilver)

Anyhow, since I believe I never got an answer, why does X-Men have to recieve more scrutiny in regards to powerscaling and feats while most other verses have a blind eye turned to them?

Originally posted by StealthRanger

As I said, you can't tell how fast something is just by looking at it (if you did, alot of fiction would only be peak human to faster than the eye can see), which is why we judge such things by speed feats they've performed elsewhere, kinda cuts out pointless headache inducing "debates" like this one that go nowhere

Yes we judge them by speed feats they have performed. Now, cite me an example of a speed feat that Wolverine has performed.

Deadpool performed said feat and Wolverine was able to keep pace with him. Not hard to grasp. Hence why I said we go with quantifiable speed feats

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Deadpool performed said feat and Wolverine was able to keep pace with him. Not hard to grasp. Hence why I said we go with quantifiable speed feats

Ppl call that ABC logic in the forums and there has been many times (in the Comic Vs forums at least) that said logic has been thrown out by mods in terms of debating characters in the past.

Just letting you know.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Ppl call that ABC logic in the forums and there has been many times (in the Comic Vs forums at least) that said logic has been thrown out by mods in terms of debating characters in the past.

Just letting you know.

Uh no, ABC logic is things like X character>Y character and Y character>Z character, so X character must>Z character too

As for what you must be referring to, yeah no, it's called powerscaling, which for shite like strength, speed, durability, destructive power, works dependent on how it's done

Like Goku's never destroyed a planet himself, however he outclasses Freiza in every respect, who has destroyed a planet, ergo, logically Goku could do it himself. Similarly, Freiza has no personal mach quadruple digit speed feats himself, although much weaker characters in the series have achieved feats of that level, so logically he could easily replicate them

Raizen's never destroyed a mountain or moved Mach 350 himself, however (when he possessed Yusuke) he's bitchslapped Sensui who has busted mountains physically and moved Mach 350 while fighting Yusuke

Vulkan's never destroyed a mountain physically and none of his movements have been stated as happening in microseconds, however some of his physically weaker brothers have and characters weaker than them have struck in the span of a microsecond

Whitebeard has no quanitifiable strength and speed feats, but makes beings like Luffy who have speed feats in the mach double digit range and beings who've tossed buildings and billion ton+ cannonballs look like chumps in the physical department even as an old man

On the other hand saying something like Sailor Galaxia is more powerful than Sailor Pluto so she can stop time too or Leman Russ defeated Magnus the Red so Russ can stop time, transmute matter, warp reality, BFR things to other dimensions or Goku shits all over regular Namekians so he can regenerate just like them? Now that's bullshit yeah

You must be using CBR definitions. Both use transitivity to compare characters/abilities. Where CBR uses Powerscaling to compare the character's abilities while ABC Logic compares the characters themselves. Silly to actually create two different words for the same concept.In my time here, I've never quite seen the term "powerscaling" used as it is essentially just ABC logic. Only specific for abilities.

You're right, used properly, it can be valuable in the absence of better proof (when trying to gauge the "featless"😉. But it does not override direct evidence when it is available.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
You must be using CBR definitions. Both use transitivity to compare characters/abilities. Where CBR uses Powerscaling to compare the character's abilities while ABC Logic compares the characters themselves.

Try OBD

A>B>C logic saying just

X character>Y character and Y character>Z character, so X character must>Z character too

that without context and asserting it's true anyways because, of course it is

It's more a case by case thing really

Powerscaling is saying that because a character matched/overpowered a character with x levels of strength/speed/durability/DC/etc, then the comparable/more powerful character is on such a level of powerscaling, which as far as I know utilised by pretty much every debating board ever

You're right, used properly, it can be valuable in the absence of better proof (when trying to gauge the "featless"😉. But it does not override direct evidence when it is available.

Except no "direct evidence" is overriden in this case full stop

Not gonna argue semantics of battleboard terminologies save that in the 3 years I've been here, I've never seen the term "powerscaling" used. That is all.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Except no "direct evidence" is overriden in this case full stop

Wrong. There is direct evidence proving Wolverine is not a bullet timer.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok forget the blurs. How bout this:

Wolverine has no BT feats so prior to his fight with Barakapool we can assume he's not a bullet timer.

Deadpool has BT feats so prior to his fight with Wolverine we can assume he's a bullet timer.

They fight, they exchange blows. So we assume that either

a.) Wolverine is moving at BT speeds since he's keeping up with DP

or

b.) DP is not moving at BT speeds since he's being hit by Wolverine.

The more logical conclusion would be b. Why? Because a.) we don't see any proof at all that DP or Wolverine are moving at BT speeds in that fight and because b.) it's far more logical to assume that a person who can move at BT speeds can also move at normal speeds than to assume a person who moves at normal speeds can now somehow manage to move at BT speeds.

Actually, the more logical conclusion would be that DP was using his speed against Wolverine. You aren't instructed to kill somebody (not by simple words but by actually being controlled by someone) and then fight half ass in the process. DP was instructed to kill wolverine and that is exactly what he would be trying very hard to do. He would be half-ass it, that isn't a logical conclusion. Thus, he was most likely using his speed but the director wanted to show us a nice pretty fight. Not blurry lines and after images. Now this doesn't mean I believe Wolverine is as fast as DP. What I think it shows is just what real life combat sports shows.. Slow people can tag faster people so long as they aren't well beyond them in speed. Take a look at Ramirez vs. Whitaker 1 or 2. Whitaker has world class speed and reflexes and is considered one of the best fighters ever. Yet, Ramirez (who's sloth like slow) was still able to hit him at certain points. Same thing here.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Not gonna argue semantics of battleboard terminologies save that in the 3 years I've been here, I've never seen the term "powerscaling" used. That is all.

Wrong. There is direct evidence proving Wolverine is not a bullet timer.

Isn't it interesting how he considers 6 movies where Wolverine doesn't show bullet-time speed as "no direct evidence"?