Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Yea but can he run backwards faster then cap can run forwards?
No he can't. I don't think Legolas can even run faster than Cap at all. I do believe however that Cap can't run forward too fast because doing so will leave him exposed to getting shot.
So yeah, I believe Legolas running backwards and shooting a bow is faster than Cap running forward blocking arrows and being careful enough not to leave any openings.
The point is that Cap pursuing Legolas would put pressure on Leg to shoot him with arrows. If legolas doesn't shoot and runs, Cap sprints and closes the distance. This would force Leg to lose an arrow or get caught. Unfortunately, tho pulling an arrow out of his quiver and losing an arrow takes a fraction of second for someone like Legolas, it is a dead giveaway for Cap to slow down, shield up and deflect it then continue pursuit to maintain the pressure.
This isn't a skill vs skill debate. This is a weapon and fighting style debate. Both are superhuman in skills and physical stats. Legolas is more skilled, Cap has better physical stats. It comes down to the weak link: bow and arrows. Arrows don't fly faster just becaue Legolas is shooting it (tho I assume his bow has crazy draw strength). The arrow stays an arrow and follows arrow rules. Normal arrows in a fight where combatants have superhuman stats.
Heck Loki caught an arrow while he wasn't even looking and BW was dodging point blank arrow shots shows how the bow and arrow is out of its depth in a fight between superhumans.
Originally posted by FrothByte
No he can't. I don't think Legolas can even run faster than Cap at all. I do believe however that Cap can't run forward too fast because doing so will leave him exposed to getting shot.So yeah, I believe Legolas running backwards and shooting a bow is faster than Cap running forward blocking arrows and being careful enough not to leave any openings.
Except that this tactic has a time limit as Legolas' quiver can only hold so many arrows. Eventually, he runs out and Cap closes and pwns him in melee combat (not even a contest IMO).
Originally posted by FrothByte
So if Legolas shoots 3 arrows simultaneously at Cap, all 3 targeted at different body parts, bow is cap going to block all 3? And before those 3 arrows hit him there'll already be 2 more on the way, and maybe another 3 behind that.
Cap will see them coming, dodge and block or just curl and cover his whole body completely. Making it 3 less arrows for Leg.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Except that this tactic has a time limit as Legolas' quiver can only hold so many arrows. Eventually, he runs out and Cap closes and pwns him in melee combat (not even a contest IMO).
Correct. Except Legolas won't be needlessly shooting his arrows into Cap's shield.
In short, in order for Cap to catch Legolas he'll have to properly run/charge forward, and to do that he'll expose himself. Legolas can just stand there, run a bit here and there and wait for Cap to get careless and shoot him.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
The point is that Cap pursuing Legolas would put pressure on Leg to shoot him with arrows. If legolas doesn't shoot and runs, Cap sprints and closes the distance. This would force Leg to lose an arrow or get caught. Unfortunately, tho pulling an arrow out of his quiver and losing an arrow takes a fraction of second for someone like Legolas, it is a dead giveaway for Cap to slow down, shield up and deflect it then continue pursuit to maintain the pressure.This isn't a skill vs skill debate. This is a weapon and fighting style debate. Both are superhuman in skills and physical stats. Legolas is more skilled, Cap has better physical stats. It comes down to the weak link: bow and arrows. Arrows don't fly faster just becaue Legolas is shooting it (tho I assume his bow has crazy draw strength). The arrow stays an arrow and follows arrow rules. Normal arrows in a fight where combatants have superhuman stats.
Heck Loki caught an arrow while he wasn't even looking and BW was dodging point blank arrow shots shows how the bow and arrow is out of its depth in a fight between superhumans.
You talk as if Legolas's only option is to stand there and shoot. He can run away too you know. Legolas is definitely fast enough to give Cap a run for his money. You don't need to pull an arrow from your quiver and shoot (giving Cap time to stop and cover up). Legolas can just keep the arrow nocked on and bow already drawn while he's running. The moment Cap slips up he'll already have 2-3 arrows headed his way.
You're right, this isn't a skill vs. skill debate. This is a weapons debate. And a bow and arrow is vastly superior to shields in long distance.
Loki caught an arrow that was shot at him at an extreme distance and Hawkeye shot at BW at a distance where it was close enough for BW to close in with a step. Not the scenarios we're talking about here.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Correct. Except Legolas won't be needlessly shooting his arrows into Cap's shield.In short, in order for Cap to catch Legolas he'll have to properly run/charge forward, and to do that he'll expose himself. Legolas can just stand there, run a bit here and there and wait for Cap to get careless and shoot him.
Which is really what you're not seeing here.
Once Leg loses an arrow, Cap will react to it. Arrows do not fly fast enough for Cap to be unable to react to them.
Also, your strat requires Leg to fight perfectly and Cap to be very careless (to be hit by an arrow, he'd have to be extra careless). My scenario allows for both combatants to fight flawlessly (like they normally do) and it would still mean Cap has the advantage.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Cap will see them coming, dodge and block or just curl and cover his whole body completely. Making it 3 less arrows for Leg.
Ok let me ask you this: Do we have feats of Cap actually moving his shield around and blocking multiple projectiles thrown his way? Maybe there are feats somewhere in the movies, but from what I recall he just puts his shield in front of his torso and all his shooters just tend to shoot at that direction.
If you can name me a feat where shooters actually targeted different areas of his body and he actually moved his shield around and blocked multiple projectiles... then I'll change my stance.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok let me ask you this: Do we have feats of Cap actually moving his shield around and blocking multiple projectiles thrown his way? Maybe there are feats somewhere in the movies, but from what I recall he just puts his shield in front of his torso and all his shooters just tend to shoot at that direction.If you can name me a feat where shooters actually targeted different areas of his body and he actually moved his shield around and blocked multiple projectiles... then I'll change my stance.
And for the most part didn't Legolas shoot people in the torso/head area? So does that mean Legolas can only shoot at ya know...the area Cap can block by simply moving his arm a slight bit?
Originally posted by FrothByte
You talk as if Legolas's only option is to stand there and shoot. He can run away too you know. Legolas is definitely fast enough to give Cap a run for his money. You don't need to pull an arrow from your quiver and shoot (giving Cap time to stop and cover up). Legolas can just keep the arrow nocked on and bow already drawn while he's running. The moment Cap slips up he'll already have 2-3 arrows headed his way.You're right, this isn't a skill vs. skill debate. This is a weapons debate. And a bow and arrow is vastly superior to shields in long distance.
Loki caught an arrow that was shot at him at an extreme distance and Hawkeye shot at BW at a distance where it was close enough for BW to close in with a step. Not the scenarios we're talking about here.
You're not getting my point here. I actually meant that Legolas' shooting/aiming takes no time but his aiming will be a dead giveaway of him shooting (you know, looking back and pointing his bow?) and the arrow travel time makes dodging/blocking it easy for someone like Cap.
If you're talking offense vs offense. Sure. Bow > Shield. But if you're talking offense vs defense in a scenario where both combatants have extreme reaction times that put the bow/arrow speeds out of its depth, then shield defense>>> bow offense.
Loki caught an arrow while he wasn't looking. He might as well have caught it from 10 feet. He reacted to it last fraction of a second. The short distance fight between BW/HE actually proves my point. Even with no time to dodge, once can just aim dodge an archer if one knows how to predict arrow tragectory.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok let me ask you this: Do we have feats of Cap actually moving his shield around and blocking multiple projectiles thrown his way? Maybe there are feats somewhere in the movies, but from what I recall he just puts his shield in front of his torso and all his shooters just tend to shoot at that direction.If you can name me a feat where shooters actually targeted different areas of his body and he actually moved his shield around and blocked multiple projectiles... then I'll change my stance.
And do you have "feats" for Legolas shooting multiple arrows at different body parts to bypass the defenses of someone with a shield?
He hasn't needed to IIRC, but he HAS moved his shield to deflect oncoming projectiles (bullets which are >>>> arrows in speed and difficulty to deflect accurately) towards other opponents. Which takes far more skill than just simply moving his shield to protect his other body parts (lol seriously, we need "feats" for that??).
Originally posted by FrothByte
Legolas has feats of him shooting 2 arrows (i'll have double check if he has feats for 3 arrows) at 2 different targets (at least that's what i remember).He also shoots an arrow through the eyeslits of a helm... pretty sure shooting a knee with an arrow isn't out of his skill range.
Not even close to the same level of difficulty as shooting a single shielded fast moving target at multiple areas to bypass shield defenses while running away and shooting from the hip. Not even in the same planet of the same difficulty level.
No one is questioning his ability to shoot single arrows at pinpoint accuracy...
lol @ Carver trying to ridicule claims no one ever actually made. Who ever said Bucky is as fast as bullets? No one said that. But the fact remains that he HAS dodged full auto machine pistol fire at close range.
And it wasn't like Bucky pulled out gun kata or something. He literally saw Falcon shooting at him and jumped out of the way. If his speed and reaction times were trained to be so far above Steve's, there is no way in hell Steve would have been able to fend off Bucky's knife attack and disarm him, despite being unarmed himself at the time (he does this with the first knife Bucky pulls). Cap shows enhanced reflexes himself when he steers a motorcycle directly at a minigun on full blast, yet uses his skill with the motorcycle and his reaction times to stay out of the line of fire, despite charging said gun head on. But let me guess, now the highly trained SHIELD pilots are all "meh" and apparently can't shoot for shit right?
And trying to compare two people who went DIRECTLY head to head and was literally shown to be virtually equals in all areas (in fact, Steve displays slightly higher skill levels than Bucky) is NOT the same as assigning feats to another character, by pure virtue of their race, when we have never had any kind of direct comparison as to how they measure up to each other. To suggest this is laughable.
I personally think this is a good fight and am still undecided. At range the elf definitely holds the advantage, but close up I give Cap the edge. To me the opening of this fight is key. If Legolas can cause enough damage at range to hamper Cap before getting into melee, he will win. If Cap can reach Legolas relatively unscathed, he takes it IMO. But honestly, the low balling occurring on both sides here (because some people are seriously downplaying Legolas as well) is cringe-worthy.
Originally posted by Robtard
LoL. Quotes are identified by the quote function or using "quotes", little boy. So I stopped reading after the 4th silly rage sentence.Let me give you an example so you can learn:
"There is no long distance running... just super fast and quick agile movement killing people" -KT
See, that's how you quote someone, using " ". You're welcome.
BTW, Gimli's comment shits all over your claim still:
"Three days and nights pursuit. No food, no rest. No sign of our quarry, but what bare rock can tell!" - Gimli (TT)
Edit: I see you took my advice and added quotes to what you were quoting, that's a good lad 😂
The ownage of Robbie no. 41
It just because routine and a day after day thing to make Robbie lie and misquote in order to hide the fact that he's being owned and badly. But I love exposing his lies and twist so all can see. Take a look here... This is how the argument started with this quote.
Originally posted by Robtard
LoL @ Legolas "running circles" around Cap.The man can almost keep up with a 1940's Plymouth and run around a 2-minute mile for 30mins at a time. "thirteen miles in thirty minutes" -Falcon
Legolas is more of a long endurance runner, as implied in TT.
Notice the key word in Rob's post above to be the word MORE OF. This was in direct response to my claims that Legolas is super fast and agile. He makes the claim that Legolas is more of a long distance runner. The word more than is signifying he's better over long distance than short. There is ABSOLUTLY 0.. zilch.. proof of any kind to support such a theory. It is never implied let alone mentioned Legolas is better over long distances. Now after Robbie gets exposed for his bs.. You'll notice the lies and twisting starts
So, in RESPONSE to Robbie claiming Legolas is better over long distances I make the post below
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That wasn't what was implied AT ALL in the TT... The only reference made was that Gimli is better over short distances. Nothing more. When you see Legolas in the spider scene ... in the TT battle for Helm's deep scene... the barrel scene... There is no long distance running... just super fast and quick agile movement killing people
Now notice how I'm listing NUMEROUS feats showing he's just fine over short distance and with short burst of speed. I reference a few scenes to illustrate this point. I then correctly state... look... no long distance running just quick agile killing. Proving it's incorrect to state Legolas is better over short distances when we have a plethora of feats showings he's great over short distances. Clearly, me saying look no long distance running which directly followed the feats I mentioned was referring to said feats. Now take a look at how Robbie either blatantly lies about what I said and even takes the context of my post away with his quote. Take a look
Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, why do you always try to one-up me on LoTR when I'm always correct in my claims. But here you go:"Three days and nights pursuit. No food, no rest. No sign of our quarry, but what bare rock can tell! - Gimli (TT)
That's Gimli commenting how he, Legolas and Aragorn have been relentlessly pursuing the Uruks for three days, trying to save the hobbits. If that doesn't tell you that Legolas is a superb long endurance runner, then you're dense.
"There is no long distance running..." -KT 😂
here you'll notice a HUGE part of my post was left off and the proper context of my post was missing. He purposefully left off the majority of the post to directly lie about what I was talking about in the hopes the ownage I've been laying on him wouldn't seem so bad. Just take a look at how he quoted me and how it appears of what I said. he literally quotes me as only saying.. there is no long distance running LMAO. In actuality at NO point in any post I've made here or otherwise did I ever claim Legolas couldn't or didn't run long distances in the movies. You won't find a single post with me saying this. My post was directly refuting Tardboy's claim that Legolas is better over long distances. That is totally and completely false. We've actually seen Legolas perform more feats over short distances.
However, just to make Tardness look even worse and take is argument to it's logical conclusion. Then that would ALSO mean Aragorn is better over long distances since he also made the run. So did Gimli, yet we know this to not be true. So how would it only apply to Legolas? Of course it wouldn't.. but that's Tardy for you. God damn it's so easy to own you and expose your lies.
Originally posted by NibedicusYou're not getting my point here. I actually meant that Legolas' shooting/aiming takes no time but his aiming will be a dead giveaway of him shooting (you know, looking back and pointing his bow?) and the arrow travel time makes dodging/blocking it easy for someone like Cap.
If you're talking offense vs offense. Sure. Bow > Shield. But if you're talking offense vs defense in a scenario where both combatants have extreme reaction times that put the bow/arrow speeds out of its depth, then shield defense>>> bow offense.
Loki caught an arrow while he wasn't looking. He might as well have caught it from 10 feet. He reacted to it last fraction of a second. The short distance fight between BW/HE actually proves my point. Even with no time to dodge, once can just aim dodge an archer if one knows how to predict arrow tragectory.
You're not understanding something very basic though. Legolas CREATES openings. That is what he does. That is how he fights. Ever notice how.. he'll land a kick and then fire an arrow in their chest or face. Or land a punch... or hit them with his sword or short knives.. create an opening and then finish them off with an arrow? You act like Legolas isn't super agile and quick. Let's say Cap closes the distance taking minimal damage (don't agree) but let's say it. I could EASILY see Legolas... bating him him... Jumping over him and as he's in the air hit him with an arrow or two. Or dodge his first attack... strike him (we've seen regular humans move his head back) and then fire an arrow. When you see Leoglas lock up with Bolg in a sword lock and hold his ground. When you easily see him decapitate people with utter ease and land killing blows on heavily armored Ocs with ease... he's pretty darn strong. Maybe not cap strong.. but a blow from Legolas will move Cap and could create an opening
Though, don't think I notice you drop the argument that Cap is more agile that Legolas, that simply isn't true based on feats. I also noticed you not saying Cap is more fluid in melee than Legolas, which again goes against what we actually saw. Legolas is far more fluid in his fighting along with more skillful.
Point is, Legolas will and arrows, the question is, how much affect will it have.
Legolas doesn't just need to see opening he creates them when non exists with super fast movements and agility.. parrying or other techniques. He's just that good.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Not even close to the same level of difficulty as shooting a single shielded fast moving target at multiple areas to bypass shield defenses while running away and shooting from the hip. Not even in the same planet of the same difficulty level.No one is questioning his ability to shoot single arrows at pinpoint accuracy...
It's not the same difficulty yes, it's actually harder. A combatant's head is constantly moving, and Legolas shot through the eyeslit of a helm. It's not like the guy was just standing stock still. I don't think you realize how hard that is. A helm's eye slit is a far smaller opening than the parts of Cap's body that he can't cover with a shield. Now yes, the shield will be moving, but the head is also moving. Shield moves faster than the head, but the shield also needs to cover bigger areas whereas that eye opening is... well, just a fraction of the size of Cap's openings.
Besides, you're putting pressure on me to defend my points when you even admitted yourself that Cap doesn't have feats of him blocking projectiles coming in to target multiple directions. Actually I'll help you out. In his fight against the chitauri, there were some instances of shots coming in from different angles. And guess what, Cap got shot, even while he had his shield. Just proves his defense isn't impeccable.
And then there's still the fact that Legolas can shoot 2 arrows at 2 different targets at once (I swear there was a time he did 3 arrows but my memory is a little hazy on that).
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I personally think this is a good fight and am still undecided. At range the elf definitely holds the advantage, but close up I give Cap the edge. To me the opening of this fight is key. If Legolas can cause enough damage at range to hamper Cap before getting into melee, he will win. If Cap can reach Legolas relatively unscathed, he takes it IMO. But honestly, the low balling occurring on both sides here (because some people are seriously downplaying Legolas as well) is cringe-worthy.
Thank you.