Originally posted by Star428
LOL. Thought it would be pretty obvious what I thought was so funny about Bentley's post. It's the fact that he thinks BA would get "humiliated" by someone who is at least a tier below him in every category except skill.
The way he worded his post made me think there was some reference to an unrelated character also abbreviated as "BA."
LOL@Carver. BS, Carver. You can tell by how he treated her in "For Tomorrow" that he didn't feel threatened by her at all. He treated her like she was nothing. He turned his back on her and was bitchslapping her around with ease. No one is saying she doesn't "pack a wallop" but not enough to be a viable threat to any top-tier character like Superman, BA, or CM.
Originally posted by leonidashere she flat out beats the fukc out of herc--whose strength marvel is said to possess:
Hercules had been fighting Circe(primarily off-panel) and Diana actually came-up to him when he was fighting her, he was in a pretty disadvantageous position for her to attack him.
Originally posted by leonidas
and here is the full sacrifice battle: the narration says he isn't holding back--SHE IS. anyone who doesn't think this is a GREAT showing for her (he's close to the sun so his powers are maxed, he hits her from the sun to the friggin earth and she's only momentarily ko'd, etc....) is INSANE. she slices his throat easily as he is coming at superspeed.... yadda-yadda....now, i fear to show this because i fear this will become supes vs ww. i will NOT entertain that, nor any allusion to it. i showed this because it showed some GREAT speed feats, some ridiculous durability and the power of her tiara when needed. and just so people don't think the tiara would kill adam--here it kills deimos, the GOD of terror:
http://i.imgur.com/imf5oZh.gif
it could ABSOLUTELY do the same to adam.
It's quite questionable whether they were actually close to the Sun or not, and Diana says, "I hold back.....barely." So really, people latch onto "hold back" without including that she's only holding a little back.
Originally posted by leonidas
as far as a common foe: here is her fight with cap nazi:here is adam's:
http://i.imgur.com/kdP36Dw.jpg
she clearly did better there as she...wasn't ko'd. 😐
Considering the Adam/Nazi fight is actually spread over several pages, it feels like it had more off-panel fighting than that cropped and combined scan shows.
And you don't think the explosives Diana used had an effect on Nazi?
Originally posted by carver9
Superman doesn't think Diana strength is a tier below the heavy hitters.She most Def packs a whallop.
And unless you think Superman was actually amped in the next issue's fight with Wonder Woman, you wouldn't think based on performance she wasn't at least a tier below him. Or other fights they've had.
Face it people, Wonder Woman is one of DC's elite characters right up there with Superman and Batman in terms of importance to the company. She's easily CM/BA's peer physically PLUS she has STANDARD gear that can wreck them : the Tiara/Bracers/Lasso.
Superman >> Wonder Woman >= Named Kryptonians (Supergirl, Power Girl, etc..) > CM/BA.
Originally posted by zopzop
She is though PLUS she has the STANDARD gear that they have NO answer for. She's their superior, it's sad but true. And I'm saying this as someone that despises the character.
She's not. Otherwise she wouldn't look so bad against Superman compared to Cap and Black Adam's performances. They're simply superior to her.
Why does she do so much work dodging and blocking? 'Cuz she can't take it or dish it out as well as they can. She's not elite like they are.
Originally posted by Delta1938
She's not. Otherwise she wouldn't look so bad against Superman compared to Cap and Black Adam's performances. They're simply superior to her.Why does she do so much work dodging and blocking? 'Cuz she can't take it or dish it out as well as they can. She's not elite like they are.
CM/BA fight against heroic Superman. The guy that always holds back lest he seriously injure or kill his opponent.
WW >> BA/CM.
Originally posted by zopzop
Bro, she held her own against an enraged Superman. Sure he was mind controlled but he was out for blood.CM/BA fight against heroic Superman. The guy that always holds back lest he seriously injure or kill his opponent.
WW >> BA/CM.
You mean where he only got one actual hit(and she was KTFOed), casually broke her wrist, and she kept avoiding him while saying things like "he's so strong?" And that's supposed to prove what?
Superman has twice casually broken her wrist just squeezing it, and twice(FOR TOMORROW and A LEAGUE OF ONE) handled her while treating her like she's not even a threat. That's not just "normal heroic Superman," that's "meh should I even try?" Superman.
Cap/Adam have looked closer to him than she ever has.
and neither adam nor marvel has even come CLOSE to putting superman down for good. with her tiara she effortlessly sliced his throat. notice she didn't attack him as he was grabbing his throat....? notice she said in the fight she was actually holding back? neither cap nor adam ever fought a superman that was truly bloodlusted. even eclipsed superman wasn't close. i've also always found it strange the value people place in the battles against superman. there are too many other ways to gauge them. adam hasn't even BATTLED him in anything resembling a good fight so the superman fight. like i said, i ONLY posted it because it is a fantastic showing for her, not because i wanna make this a ww/superman debate. again.
how anyone can look at the characters and not feel they are peers is.....remarkable to me. i can get where someone would favor adam/marvel in a fight. what i can't fathom is how anyone can see this as being a stomp, or how someone might try and say they are a tier apart.
in any event, i'll keep posting stuff though i suspect there will be many who, regardless of what evidence is shown, will never concede the point. as a fan of both characters though, i find it odd, i gotta admit.
Originally posted by zopzop
Face it people, Wonder Woman is one of DC's elite characters right up there with Superman and Batman in terms of importance to the company. She's easily CM/BA's peer physically PLUS she has STANDARD gear that can wreck them : the Tiara/Bracers/Lasso.Superman >> Wonder Woman >= Named Kryptonians (Supergirl, Power Girl, etc..) > CM/BA.
Originally posted by leonidas
and neither adam nor marvel has even come CLOSE to putting superman down for good. with her tiara she effortlessly sliced his throat. notice she didn't attack him as he was grabbing his throat....? notice she said in the fight she was actually holding back? neither cap nor adam ever fought a superman that was truly bloodlusted. even eclipsed superman wasn't close. i've also always found it strange the value people place in the battles against superman. there are too many other ways to gauge them. adam hasn't even BATTLED him in anything resembling a good fight so the superman fight. like i said, i ONLY posted it because it is a fantastic showing for her, not because i wanna make this a ww/superman debate. again.how anyone can look at the characters and not feel they are peers is.....remarkable to me. i can get where someone would favor adam/marvel in a fight. what i can't fathom is how anyone can see this as being a stomp, or how someone might try and say they are a tier apart.
in any event, i'll keep posting stuff though i suspect there will be many who, regardless of what evidence is shown, will never concede the point. as a fan of both characters though, i find it odd, i gotta admit.
👆
Originally posted by leonidasWhat herald can take out Alan, PG and Jay in a single page?
[B]all right, i just didn't want anyone thinking i'd forgotten this. just quickly going through your scans--the JSA bout. a pretty good showing, but, really--dr midnight, hourman, terrifc, wildcat, and the hawks? well, if a herald doesn't take them out easily, prolly shouldn't be a herald.....
that leaves the better stuff--slamming PG to the ground though isn't winning the fight, though it's clear he was stronger than she was imo. he slapped jay but again, knocking someone back isn't winning anything.WTF are you talking about? On the very next page they are all KOED.
fury basically one-shotted him for a brief time and fate himself was of course powerless. i mean, the scans conveniently left out this:They also left out the part where Adam was outright stated to be weakened just before that.http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/111336/3804295-4721338810-alan2.jpg
And the fact that Hawkman cheapshotted him.
alan and hawkman handed adam his a$$ and everything could have been done right there had hawkman not been called off of him.facepalm
and let's not forget--they were not going for the kill--they were trying to subdue him. something that is ALWAYS called into question in these types of fights....When the opponent is outright oneshotting everyone? Not really.
so, to answer your question--do i think ww could have knocked jay back, tossed PG and beat up the hawks, midnight, hourman, wildcat and a terrific who decided to go h2h before a couple of them got their sh!t together to take her out?? yeah, i'd say she could do that. 👆Could she have oneshotted PG? Hahaha, no.
his best single showing was against j'onn. adam did FAR better against jonn than cap marvel himself did. that will be hard to match but i'll see what i can find....Cap beat up J'onn, Diana, Wally, Kyle, Guy all at once. I don't see how that's better.
your second scan doesn't bear commenting on--a team beat the crap out of him. it's not like luthor assembled that team JUST to take adam out. could that team have done the same to ww? prolly. 👆What? The psionics took him out. He wasn't beaten by Amazo or General or anybody else. Did you even read the scans?
the third scan--a nice durability feat where the heat vision is concerned. and i agree his durability>diana's. but...he just thunderclapped. don't see the big deal tbh...He actually koed her there. And he was at 1/3rd power level there as Mary and Billy were sharing his powers. At that level he was choking her out and beating Alan up.
Could never see Diana able to do that.
as for the ww scans: lol nice first scan. diana was completely suckered by her in that scan. sub in adam in that scene and the exact same thing would have happened.Except no? PG has suckered Adam, he wasn't koed.
diana was fine there and you can even see her crawling out of the wreckage in your scan. THIS scan comes right before yours:Yeah, she was getting suckered. Your point is?
i guess she could have caught diana's fist in the next scan, or she could have grabbed it. regardless, i'm not arguing if diana is stronger than PG. and the comparison is kinda moot anyway--adam and kara have never had a full on, to the death type match that she and ww have, so frankly we really have no idea how kara would do against adam were she going full out.Except no? She was explicitly going all out here.
Didn't do her much good.
we do know that diana handled very easily after she stopped issuing warnings to her. her skill was the difference. her skill would come heavily into play in THIS fight as well.All she did was placing her in a choke hold and breaking her out of mental control. How's that easily handling her?
and seriously: the first khrana scan all diana wanted to do was TALK and she got back handed in front of a group of people--she didn't fight back because she didn't want her identity blown!And because she was koed. Read the scan first.
that scan is utterly meaningless. as for the second scan--not sure of the context, but given some of what you posted, call me....skeptical.... lolSo, you are not even trying to read the scan I see.
and then there is the amazo scan. again, seriously? who the hell knows what happened there.We do. Adam ripped his head off.
we can see clearly that adam was attacking from behind. so many versions of amazo--some are awesome, some less so, but bottom line--we have no idea wth happened in that scene....Why not? That Amazo had at least GL and Diana's powers as shown by the lasso and the ring.
and that's it?You know that's just an exaggerated version of WW 219?k, well, i'll show some feats that i think match what you posted--or at least some close. recall i said i think adam would win a fight--i just think it would be enormously close and she'd take several of them though he'd get a slight majority....
from trinity before the creation engines... their blows rocked the heavens and the earth
here she flat out beats the fukc out of herc--whose strength marvel is said to possess:Not really. Adam and Marvels are powered by Lord of Order and Chaos as retconned in Trials of Shazam. That scan is meaningless.
of course the spectre feat:What does that even mean here?
her speed/reactions are flat out greater than his. i challenge you to find anything that can surpass the shattered god feat:That would be everything? Because that feat is blown to infinity. In fact she was outflying the same shards and didn't even reach orbit. The shards were teleported from across the universe.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/20807439/14.jpg.html
I suggest read the comic first.
i'd go so far as to say kara has better displayed speed feats than adam does. if you disagree, show me what you gots! lolConsidering he blitzed her? Flat out wrong.
and of course there is the speed force scan:Debunked by me a long time ago.
that's not the equal of the shattered god feat, but even if the speed of light is defined as the barrier (an inconsistent thing at best) this is something adam has never been able to do.Who said she was going speed of light at that moment when Jessie herself didn't? All wonder woman did was lasso her and follow her at the edge of speed force.
and here her MOTHER lasso's a PHOTON:When she was just the size of a photon? Might as well post Atom fighting at lightspeed since he dropkicked a photon in the very same page.
diana is FAR faster (and it has been shown) than her mother ever was...Adam is far faster than Karen who is explicitly her equal in speed and Jay has said that she is four of the fastest beings in JLA and JSA.
Hint: Wonder Woman is not one of them even though she was right there in the team.
based on displayed feats, i'd say she has a definite speed edge. it wouldn't be much, but an edge just the same. she also has an obvious skill edge as was demonstrated in the earlier scans when kara couldn't even HIT her.... also shown many times when she went through her powerless phase. anyway, the whole PG battle:She is just as skilled as Supergirl it seems.
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc141/Supergirl_Respect/restrainpg.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc141/Supergirl_Respect/restrainpg2.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc141/Supergirl_Respect/restrainpg3.jpg
as you can see, once she decided to fight like a warrior, it was over pretty quickly.You mean PG fought the mind control? Why does everyone makes it like she koed PG?
and here is the full sacrifice battle: the narration says he isn't holding back--SHE IS. anyone who doesn't think this is a GREAT showing for her (he's close to the sun so his powers are maxed, he hits her from the sun to the friggin earth and she's only momentarily ko'd, etc....) is INSANE. she slices his throat easily as he is coming at superspeed.... yadda-yadda....He is close to the sun and she flashed kryptonite in his face. So, no he wasn't at his max. He oneshotted her, broke her wrist through her bracers like a twig and she had to resort to total cheapshots like banging her bracers to his ears and kneeing him in his groin to stop him choking her out. For comparison, under the same writer Batman did this to her by clapping to her ears.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvsdiana-ww2.jpg
And while we are at it, here is Superman vs someone with combined power of Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Flash and Green Lantern under Rucka.
And for shits and giggles, Superman vs every superhero on earth under mind control.
http://s647.photobucket.com/user/biensalsa/media/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20PSIONICS/AdvofSupes62310-11_zps8abda24a.jpg.html
http://s647.photobucket.com/user/biensalsa/media/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20PSIONICS/AdvofSupes62312_zps7e38d1d8.jpg.html
Mind control is a funny thing in comics.
now, i fear to show this because i fear this will become supes vs ww. i will NOT entertain that, nor any allusion to it. i showed this because it showed some GREAT speed feats, some ridiculous durability and the power of her tiara when needed. and just so people don't think the tiara would kill adam--here it kills deimos, the GOD of terror:You think the tiara can just cut Adam's head off because it killed a random god with no feats?
it could ABSOLUTELY do the same to adam.Yeah, right. Its not like he has taken hits from Hawkman's nth metal mace which totally nullifies magic and still beat his ass. Here is a hint: Cap healed from being turned inside out. Take the hint.
as for whether she can beat a lantern:If by easily you mean she outright said she can't beat him directly and had to divert his willpower? Here she outright says that force is not enough and she must beat him by her mind.she takes him out easily.
http://i.imgur.com/85LCVib.jpg
Or here when she says that he can't be harmed.
http://i.imgur.com/t4dDLan.jpg
and even at the end, where she LETS him pound on her, she is standing easily when she could have killed him. lanterns also have a lot of trouble dealing with magic.You are talking about a random Lantern beating her black and blue as something noteworthy? Superman and Black Adam wouldn't even drop a sweat at something like that.
as far as a common foe: here is her fight with cap nazi:Considering the Nazi Diana fought was a different Nazi since the original was killed in Infinite Crisis, I don't see why that's relevant.here is adam's:
she clearly did better there as she...wasn't ko'd. 😐Captain Marvel jr. has done better than that. Its a highly inconsistent showing for Nazi to able to fight Adam at that level.
this is a great showing. she loses, but not before she saves superman from amazo and does remarkably well given how powerful this amazo was. even though she loses, this is far more impressive to me than the adam/amazo showing because we HAVE context:She lost and Amazo might've killed her with lightning had Zee not saved her. I don't see why that's so good considering Hal was blowing holes in the same amazo and Black Canary blew its head off. Wonder Woman did the least against Amazo despite what you think.
and certainly one of her better feats was the taking down of genocide. genocide had handled her effectively in their first meeting. here is what genocide also did to the league:I don't see why that's relevant here. Did Genocide fight Adam and I forgot it?very impressive imo. even with the help of the amped amazons they barely won the day. here is ww vs genocide the second time:
GREAT speed, durability and weapon feats in there....No they do not. Adam is her superior in strength, speed and durability.i have more but that's enough for the moment. i see no way in the world this fight is anything but close. speed and skill go to diana. durability goes adam. strength to adam, though very slightly. and she has her tiara and lasso to make up the small differences.
very close, though i look forward to seeing more from the adam camp to further make their point in favor of a STOMP by adam..... [/B]😂
Originally posted by Delta1938
You mean where he only got one actual hit(and she was KTFOed), casually broke her wrist, and she kept avoiding him while saying things like "he's so strong?" And that's supposed to prove what?Superman has twice casually broken her wrist just squeezing it, and twice(FOR TOMORROW and A LEAGUE OF ONE) handled her while treating her like she's not even a threat. That's not just "normal heroic Superman," that's "meh should I even try?" Superman.
Cap/Adam have looked closer to him than she ever has.
👆
Agreed. She is nowhere near their level. CM looked much better against a non-holding back Superman than Diana did by far. AND that Superman actually had a buff and knew who he was actually fighting as opposed to the one Diana was fighting who was obviously handi-capped. It's sad that so many WW fans hang on to that Sacrifice fight as their so-called "proof" that Diana is top-tier when it actually proves that she's not.
