ROTS Sidious/Dooku/Maul vs. Caedus/Kun/Vader

Originally posted by Arhael
Opinion. Forms don't mean shit. Sidious made Windu believe so much that got kicked in the face. Made Luke believe so much that got his hand chopped off.

Hmm, lets see. Do we know that Windu's circumstantial Vaapad is the only reason he could keep up with Sidious? Yes. And did Sidious get exactly what he wanted after he got kicked in the face? Yes. Is that a coincidence? I think not.

Luke had hard time in some unfavorable circumstances. However, in this case Luke had advantage due to surprise attack and Caedus still fought him to a stalemate.

Luke still seems to perform differently against different foes.

Was that a stalemate? (Actually asking) I remember Luke dominating him quite well in most parts of the fight.

More importantly, Sidious tried to defeat Luke in his own game. Had they faced each other alone on an open field in an all out fight with morals off, Sidious would defeat him.

His actualized power was enough to experience deepest Force unity ever known, roll 40x20 meter ship with a smile, deflect turbolasers with Force barrier without any problem and hold B-Wing in Force grasp during star fighter battle.

And Sidious was so fast and skilled that he was able to easily take out 3 jedi masters while the second best duelist of the order's golden age was fighting alongside them. He did more than just stomp Darth Maul and Savage who have a lot of impressive feats them selves. Yoda is more powerful than Jacen in the force and Sidious instantly overwhelmed him with his lightning. 👆

Desann ran away from Luke after short saber exchange, nice try though.

So for a short amount of time, he stalemated Luke in sabers and had taken him out with the force? Like I said, inconsistency.

It wasn't instantly - it was a protracted contest with full effort from both sides. The RotS novel has Palpatine outright overpowering Yoda, but other sources have them as equals and Yoda losing only because of his worse positioning and weight.

Re: Luke vs. Caedus

Luke didn't back off because Caedus was stalemating him. He backed off because he was too close to the Dark Side due to 'vengeance for murdered wife.' He pulled Ben out of there too, as Ben was in full 'vengeance for murdered mom' mode.

I'm inclined to think Caedus can't, actually, keep up with Luke when the latter is morals off. Morals on, though, every fight he had with Caedus was a potential trip into the dark side due to feelings of vengeance. Killing Mara before confronting his uncle was a master stroke on Caedus's part, in terms of keeping Luke relatively contained.

Caedus is on RotS Sidious's tier. Is he above him, though? I have my doubts.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Re: Luke vs. Caedus

Luke didn't back off because Caedus was stalemating him. He backed off because he was too close to the Dark Side due to 'vengeance for murdered wife.' He pulled Ben out of there too, as Ben was in full 'vengeance for murdered mom' mode.

I'm inclined to think Caedus can't, actually, keep up with Luke when the latter is morals off. Morals on, though, every fight he had with Caedus was a potential trip into the dark side due to feelings of vengeance. Killing Mara before confronting his uncle was a master stroke on Caedus's part, in terms of keeping Luke relatively contained.

And iirc, Luke showed superiority in several occasions especially in the force until the fighting ended.

Originally posted by Sinious
Hmm, lets see. Do we know that Windu's circumstantial Vaapad is the only reason he could keep up with Sidious? Yes.

So what are you saying? That if Windu had Mastered and Utilized a different form he wouldn't have been able to keep up with Sidious?

I think you overestimate the difference a Lightsaber form makes.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So what are you saying? That if Windu had Mastered and Utilized a different form he wouldn't have been able to keep up with Sidious?

I think you overestimate the difference a Lightsaber form makes.

In that specific moment, Vaapad was that important. Windu's own inner darkness was peaked and Sidious' own negativity om top of that gave Windu an unussual amount of amp.

Do you really think that Windu is fast enough to keep up with the guy who can blitz his council buddies?

Originally posted by Sinious

Do you really think that Windu is fast enough to keep up with the guy who can blitz his council buddies?

Yes, because Lucas flat out said Windu can compete with Sidious.

And because we already saw Dooku (Windu's equal) keep up with Yoda (Sidious's equal). Or was that a one-off circumstantial Lightsaber fight as well?

I never said he would be instantly outdueled but he wouldnt't keep up with him as long as he did with Vaapad.

Lucas said a lot of stupid things tbh.

Well, competing with someone doesn't mean they have a chance.

To use a football analogy, the Patriots won the super bowl. Tampa Bay and Tennessee had the worst record in the NFL.

Can Tampa Bay 'compete' with the Patriots? Sure. It's a professional team. What's going to happen as a result of that competition? The answer is obvious.

So saying Mace competes with Sidious is about on par with saying Tampa Bay competes with the Patriots. They can both get on the field, but...well.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Well, competing with someone doesn't mean they have a chance.

To use a football analogy, the Patriots won the super bowl. Tampa Bay and Tennessee had the worst record in the NFL.

Can Tampa Bay 'compete' with the Patriots? Sure. It's a professional team. What's going to happen as a result of that competition? The answer is obvious.

So saying Mace competes with Sidious is about on par with saying Tampa Bay competes with the Patriots. They can both get on the field, but...well.

Nah, by that definition Fisto competed against Sidious.

Lucas clearly meant fight on a competitive level, i.e. they have a shot at winning. And Mace actually did win in that scenario.

Lucas just said that Mace could compete, and he could - in that specific moment of amplification Mace received. He's the only one who can do that - Yoda being the only one who can realistically keep up with Palpatine in an actual fight, no amps included.

Originally posted by Sinious
Hmm, lets see. Do we know that Windu's circumstantial Vaapad is the only reason he could keep up with Sidious? Yes. And did Sidious get exactly what he wanted after he got kicked in the face? Yes. Is that a coincidence? I think not.

Luke still seems to perform differently against different foes.

Was that a stalemate? (Actually asking) I remember Luke dominating him quite well in most parts of the fight.

More importantly, Sidious tried to defeat Luke in his own game. Had they faced each other alone on an open field in an all out fight with morals off, Sidious would defeat him.

And Sidious was so fast and skilled that he was able to easily take out 3 jedi masters while the second best duelist of the order's golden age was fighting alongside them. He did more than just stomp Darth Maul and Savage who have a lot of impressive feats them selves. Yoda is more powerful than Jacen in the force and Sidious instantly overwhelmed him with his lightning. 👆

So for a short amount of time, he stalemated Luke in sabers and had taken him out with the force? Like I said, inconsistency.

Desann being able to last a few seconds on screen against Luke does not make inconsistency, it makes Desann more impressive, he was the main villain of the game, don't forget that. Bottom line he ran away becaue he knew he stands no chance against Luke.

Can this continue for another few pages? It's entertaining lol.

I don't see how Mace defeating Sidious proves Caedus' superiority.

Originally posted by Angelalex242

I'm inclined to think Caedus can't, actually, keep up with Luke when the latter is morals off. Morals on, though, every fight he had with Caedus was a potential trip into the dark side due to feelings of vengeance. Killing Mara before confronting his uncle was a master stroke on Caedus's part, in terms of keeping Luke relatively contained.

He was just as bloodlusted in Sacrifice, but it's a pretty stupid theme. What's even more stupid is just how ludicrously inconsistent Legacy era Luke is.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Barriss displayed Oneness twice, but that doesn't put her above Luke.

Still, the fight played similarly to ROTJ Luke vs. Vader...where Luke wins, then goes 'oh crap I'm gonna be evil if I do this' and backs off.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He was just as bloodlusted in Sacrifice, but it's a pretty stupid theme. What's even more stupid is just how ludicrously inconsistent Legacy era Luke is.

How so? Jacen was the only one capable of matching him in sabers without an amp or on without many other additional factors.

Originally posted by Sinious
I don't see how Mace defeating Sidious proves Caedus' superiority.

You probably wouldn't because you haven't read anything involving Jacen at all?