ROTS Sidious/Dooku/Maul vs. Caedus/Kun/Vader

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Glowing exactly like that? Somebody else mentioned a "glow" except it wasn't like that at all.

2. C'baoth's powerful, but has zero lightsaber skill. That being said, his general speed and power feats just don't match up.

Mace never outskilled Palpatine. Barring the fact that he was amped in that fight, the novel also claims that the fight was an impasse and could go on forever. He won by exploiting a "Shatterpoint" that ended up being completely non-existent and made up by Sidious.

Numerous sources canonically confirm that Yoda was more skilled than Mace, yet he only fought as an equal for Palpatine.

3. Ah, you meant that. As I said, the audio drama does things differently.

2. His saber skill is irrelevant as he did not let Luke to close in. C'baot's power though easily approaches Sidious'. In final fight C'baot produced boulder storm, used lightning and mental attacks simultaneously. He maintained that boulder storm for a very long period of time. If not for Force storm, Sidious would not have any comparably impressive Force feats. Also, on death C'baot like Sidious produced huge explosion that damaged building.

When one opponent out-duels another - it is called outskilled. Mace outskilled Sidious. Indeed, Shatterpoint did not do anything and yet Windu still outdueled Sidious.

In ones source it says that Windu was ever beaten by Yoda and Dooku. Gillard says that he is second only to Yoda. Making of RotS gives Windu level 9 combat prowess just like to Yoda. Anyway, it's off topic. Bottom line Windu's skill and power was enough to beat Sidious.

3. The fact that Luke fell to the darkside is same for both sources. Luke regretted falling to darkside many years ahead.

1. They were, and it doesn't override the comic, lol. That's like saying the junior novel of RotS overrides the RotS main novel, lol.

2. You really don't know Sidious's feats, do you? Because Mind Controlling twenty billion people > Mind Controlling 40 000. Also, Sidious mused he could collapse his office with a thought, which exceeds C'baoth's TK feats. Also, Sidious passively using Battle Meditation to support fleets/armies on a galactic scale whilst doing other things > C'baoth's "=40% efficiency" Battle Meditation. And again, these are all before DE, where Sidious is stated to have grown in power.

3. Mace was equal to Sidious with amps - he won because he was allowed to, lol. The novel very much states that he wasn't outright better than Sidious.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. They were, and it doesn't override the comic, lol. That's like saying the junior novel of RotS overrides the RotS main novel, lol.

2. You really don't know Sidious's feats, do you? Because Mind Controlling twenty billion before reaching his prime > Mind Controlling 40 000. Also, Sidious mused he could collapse his office with a thought, which exceeds C'baoth's TK feats.

3. Mace was equal to Sidious with amps - he won because he was allowed to, lol. The novel very much states that he wasn't outright better than Sidious.

2. What? twenty billion? Before prime? 40000? What are you even talking about? Sidious never mind controlled 2billion or 40000. He put Byss under spell, which allowed him to drain them. I think you need to check mind control definition.

3. What amps? Windu defeated Sidious without anyone amping. Vaapad is not an amp, it's is lightsaber style and mind set.
I never said that Windu is outright better. It's just you give too much thought to the word "outskilled". Even perfectly even opponents can out-skill one another.

First of all, Sidious mind-wiped absolutely everybody that saw the launch of the Lusankya from Coruscant.

Secondly, Mace Windu's defeat of Sidious was entirely circumstantial, his Vaapad performed to a far greater degree than it ever normally does. It's an outlier feat. It is not par for the course with Windu's wider array of combat feats

1. So is the junior novel/main novel. That doesn't let them override each other, it's just different interpretations of it. And I'm looking for the quote, lol. And even if the quote doesn't exist, it's inconsistent for the reasons mentioned above.

2. It was mind control, lol. Or "mind enslavement", for the exact quote. He also did it on Coruscant, which has a population of a trillion.

3. There was an amp, the novel claims that. Vaapad channels a person's inner darkness into a weapon of light, and the novel makes repeated references to Mace's drastically enhanced inner darkness. There's a whole blog on it online.

4. Except he had an "environmental advantage" and Sidious is still heavily implied to have faked the duel. He never "outskilled' Sidious or beat him legitimately.

A silver blog at that, definitely one of his best reads.

Originally posted by AncientPower
First of all, Sidious mind-wiped absolutely everybody that saw the launch of the Lusankya from Coruscant.

Secondly, Mace Windu's defeat of Sidious was entirely circumstantial, his Vaapad performed to a far greater degree than it ever normally does. It's an outlier feat. It is not par for the course with Windu's wider array of combat feats

X-Wing: Krytos Trap and The New Essential Guide to Characters for Palpatine's feat, or RotS novel for Mace's amp.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. So is the junior novel/main novel. That doesn't let them override each other, it's just different interpretations of it. And I'm looking for the quote, lol. And even if the quote doesn't exist, it's inconsistent for the reasons mentioned above.

2. It was mind control, lol. Or "mind enslavement", for the exact quote. He also did it on Coruscant, which has a population of a trillion.

3. There was an amp, the novel claims that. Vaapad channels a person's inner darkness into a weapon of light, and the novel makes repeated references to Mace's drastically enhanced inner darkness. There's a whole blog on it online.

4. Except he had an "environmental advantage" and Sidious is still heavily implied to have faked the duel. He never "outskilled' Sidious or beat him legitimately.

2. That feat cannot be quantified in terms effort. Lets stick with combat feats that actually can be observed.

3. No amp. As you quoted: "Vaapad channels a person's inner darkness into a weapon of light". It is as metaphorical as it gets. Windu accept his speed and fury - metaphor. Superconduit - metaphor. All that happens in Windu's head. Amp - is when you perform better due to actual Force enhancement. But Vaapad is all about mental aspect and saber style. In reality Windu draws on Force in order to fight, Sidious draws on Force, there is nothing else to it. Anakin in book observe the fight and to him it was simply Windu cutting loose.

4. No environmental advantage. Only 3 fodder Jedi at beginning that did not make much difference. Lucas confirmed that Sidious started feigning weakness only after being out-dueled, so no need for the theory that Sidious threw up the fight. Regardless, I agree that Sidious is better than Windu and would beat him more times than vise versa.

Just checked.
"Not knowing all of the details surrounding the burial, some New Republic observers later speculated that either all the witnesses to this event had been executed, or that Emperor Palpatine had used the Force on a massive scale to command everyone to forget what they saw.[6]" - from wookie. So if this info is correct it's not even clear, if Palpatine actually mind wiped anyone in that case. Even if he did, it required to wipe memory only from witnesses, which is unknown how many were there. In other words, useless feat.

1. The inconsistency isn't about Leia's Harmony, that's just my way of trying to make sense of the feat. The simple fact is that Luke a year before/after really isn't comparable to/above Palpatine in sheer speed/power/other traits except raw skill with a blade.

Also, they don't glow on paper, but they text claims they do.

2. It's minimal effort, since he can do other things at once. In other words, it's better than C'baoth's showings - by a lot. So no, C'baoth doesn't compare to Palpatine, which in turn means Luke of Thrawn Trilogy really doesn't.

3. Except Mace cutting loose should've blitzed Dooku on the account of the faster Anakin not being able to see Mace and Palpatine fighting. Instead, however, in LoE, he dueled evenly with Grievous for some time to the point of being disinterested in further dueling, leading him to BFR Grievous with TK instead. Mace just isn't good enough to beat Palpatine in a strict duel, and yes, he was amped. This is something that can actually be proven, moreso than the Leia Harmony.

4. Yes, it was. He forced Palpatine out onto the edge where his speed was reduced in order for him to hold on to the slippery permacrete, as per the novel.

5. Lucas never confirmed that, lol. And the blog I mentioned does address that, so you clearly didn't bother to touch it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Just checked.
"Not knowing all of the details surrounding the burial, some New Republic observers later speculated that either all the witnesses to this event had been executed, or that Emperor Palpatine had used the Force on a massive scale to command everyone to forget what they saw.[6]" - from wookie. So if this info is correct it's not even clear, if Palpatine actually mind wiped anyone in that case. Even if he did, it required to wipe memory only from witnesses, which is unknown how many were there. In other words, useless feat.

Why don't you check the direct-from-source quotes from here: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/rotj-palpatine-darth-sidious-respect-thread/101094/

Instead of searching up non-canonical wikis? Just control-F "Lusankya".

Originally posted by Arhael
Metaphorical gibberish common in that book. Vaapad is a lightsaber style and state of mind. It cannot give an amp from opponent directly. Windu gets amped from relishing fight, from being in the right mindset. With same success Windu was consumed by Vaapad, while deflecting blaster bolts in another book.

You can't disregard it like that. Besides, every other showing from the characters suggest that Mace was performing much better than he normally would ant that's the important part.

Luke was pressing advantage at beginning because of surprise attack. Right at beginning Luke damaged his kidney and commissioned his head with strikes. Yet, Caedus managed to gain distance and recover. Yes, Luke was somewhat more dominant but he got battered just as badly. Had Caedus been ready for the fight, outcome would have been more even.

Like I said, Luke had disadvantages too. He was harmed from the fight with Lumiya and Caedus hit him in the right spot(also in the beginning of the fight). By your own admittance, Luke was more dominant in that fight and in a prior confrontation, Luke absolutely dominated him with the force without any effort. He is clearly superior in the force and though I can't find it now, I remember reading Caedus' confession on how he was inferior to Luke as a duelist as well(I'll keep this to myself for now though).

The only reason why that fight was so close is because Luke was in a bad state of mind. 👆

Ok, fine. That doesn't prove much. Best combatants Sidious had is brothers, Windu, Yoda and Luke. In all cases Sidious fought mostly with lightsaber. Whatever Sidious prefers, lightsaber combat is the most important factor and both Luke and Caedus are above him in that regard.

That proves that you were misinformed. Like I said, Sidious arrogantly attempts on besting the jedi in their own game. He can turn any duel into a force fight when he wants as he did against Yoda and Starkiller.

Mindset indeed matters. Luke with doubts can be weak. However, angry Luke is just as impressive as Luke fully embracing light. Or you forgot how Luke outskilled Vader in anger despite having very little saber training? Fight with Caedus is the most impressive Luke's fight I read out of all books. Nowhere else Luke fights as effectively and as lethally.

Anakin vs Kenobi is a bad example on your part. Anakin did very well in that fight, he constantly drove Kenobi back. Kenobi was barely surviving that fight but unlike Dooku he did not underestimate him and constantly gave ground to survive. Anakin did very well but circumstances played against him.

As I said above, Luke had a much easier time dealing with Caedus in their prior confrontation. Clearly, he wasn't in a stable state of mind.

No, Anakin didn't do well. Anakin is normally capable of out dueling Dooku, a much better combatant than Kenobi. Yet he failed to defeat him in their duel and overpower him in their TK clash.

It's not logic, it's you lowballing a character due to lack of knowledge.
You can't know, if Sidious would be able to speed-blitz or one-shot Desann. From what we know about Desann is that he is good enough to last against Luke at least for a few seconds and able to escape. He was a difficult opponent even for Kyle Katarn after he restored his powers. Don't forget that Kyle is a very skilled Jedi Master at that point who previously trained Mara.

Nice try though Desann didn't just escape. He was able to send Luke flying with the force and showed better usage of the environment. He had the upper hand in that confrontation for a decent amount of time even though he would die if he stayed. This is what I meant when I said you think every character that lasts against Luke is above or at least comparable to DE Sidious.

team 1 they have the better force weilders.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sidious> Caedus> Kun> Vader> Dooku> Maul.

Team 2 wins.

This.

Originally posted by Sinious
I haven't seen anyone else who shits on TOR and Sidious at the same time. What you're doing will destroy all that is good. I beg you, restrain yourself.

Is that a reference to the Father's quote to the Son in Mortis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBBad4-3CzM

Yes it is. 🤣

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The inconsistency isn't about Leia's Harmony, that's just my way of trying to make sense of the feat. The simple fact is that Luke a year before/after really isn't comparable to/above Palpatine in sheer speed/power/other traits except raw skill with a blade.

Also, they don't glow on paper, but they text claims they do.

2. It's minimal effort, since he can do other things at once. In other words, it's better than C'baoth's showings - by a lot. So no, C'baoth doesn't compare to Palpatine, which in turn means Luke of Thrawn Trilogy really doesn't.

3. Except Mace cutting loose should've blitzed Dooku on the account of the faster Anakin not being able to see Mace and Palpatine fighting. Instead, however, in LoE, he dueled evenly with Grievous for some time to the point of being disinterested in further dueling, leading him to BFR Grievous with TK instead. Mace just isn't good enough to beat Palpatine in a strict duel, and yes, he was amped. This is something that can actually be proven, moreso than the Leia Harmony.

4. Yes, it was. He forced Palpatine out onto the edge where his speed was reduced in order for him to hold on to the slippery permacrete, as per the novel.

5. Lucas never confirmed that, lol. And the blog I mentioned does address that, so you clearly didn't bother to touch it.

1. There is no inconsistency. Luke's most impressive feats are mainly with lightsaber because he is a Jedi, not Sith. Nevertheless, Luke's feats prior/post DE are more impressive than Yoda's/Windu's. In Courtship of Princess Leia Luke safely landed himself, his x-wing and Isolder from sky fall, while other Jedi can barely land themselves.

Shortly post DE Luke rebuild and destroyed Vader's Fortress with TK. In same book he lifted B-Wing with himself inside before starting engine without much effort, compare that to Yoda struggling to lift a pillar in AotC.
Luke rarely abuses Force but that doesn't mean he is below Sidious in power.

2. Saw the link you provided. Thanks for that. As I said cannot be quantified. You assume that the feat was done with minimal effort. If this feat happened, I can assume that it was a ritual like feat that took a lot of effort. Sidious never demonstrate what C'baot did during combat, although I am sure Sidious can. Point is don't act like C'baot wasn't a powerhouse in those books.

3. Stupid logic. Blitz Dooku? Dooku demonstrated to be fast enough to fight Yoda although he ran away after a short time. It absolutely makes sense that Dooku could stalemate Windu for some time too, which is what he did before running away.

As of Grievous, he can attack from multiple angels, which requires defensive fighting style to defeat Grievous. Windu's style is offensive, hence Grievous wasn't an easy opponent. It is not Windu's low showing, it is Grievous' high showing. And Windu himself confirmed that Kenobi has the best style to counter Grievous.

Nope, Windu was not amped, you can't prove he was. Vaapad is not an amp, it is lightsaber style and state of mind. It has nothing to do with Force amp, it is all to do with fighting at your best with the right mind set and technique.

4. That's not environmental advantage, that's circumstances and luck on Windu's part. Nothing stopped Sidious from forcing Windu out of window.

5.
From RotS audio commentary:
Originally posted by George Lucas
This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something I added later.

Originally posted by Sinious
You can't disregard it like that. Besides, every other showing from the characters suggest that Mace was performing much better than he normally would ant that's the important part.

Like I said, Luke had disadvantages too. He was harmed from the fight with Lumiya and Caedus hit him in the right spot(also in the beginning of the fight). By your own admittance, Luke was more dominant in that fight and in a prior confrontation, Luke absolutely dominated him with the force without any effort. He is clearly superior in the force and though I can't find it now, I remember reading Caedus' confession on how he was inferior to Luke as a duelist as well(I'll keep this to myself for now though).

The only reason why that fight was so close is because Luke was in a bad state of mind. 👆

Where Luke pinned Caedus, Caedus did not try to use Force to counter Luke, so the example is irrelevant.
Luke's state of mind was good, he was blood lusted and that is the only reason Luke was more dominant during the fight.
Caedu's confession doesn't mean much as from their fight it is clear that they are on the same level.

That proves that you were misinformed. Like I said, Sidious arrogantly attempts on besting the jedi in their own game. He can turn any duel into a force fight when he wants as he did against Yoda and Starkiller.

As I said above, Luke had a much easier time dealing with Caedus in their prior confrontation. Clearly, he wasn't in a stable state of mind.

No, Anakin didn't do well. Anakin is normally capable of out dueling Dooku, a much better combatant than Kenobi. Yet he failed to defeat him in their duel and overpower him in their TK clash.

Anakin's performance against Kenobi is far more impressive than against Dooku.
He was pressing him non-stop. But Kenobi is better than Dooku at defensive style and with knowledge of Anakin's moves could survive anyting unlike Dooku.
Anakin is not as skilled with TK as Dooku and before he could overpower Kenobi with TK, they got split up by explosion.

]Nice try though Desann didn't just escape. He was able to send Luke flying with the force and showed better usage of the environment. He had the upper hand in that confrontation for a decent amount of time even though he would die if he stayed. This is what I meant when I said you think every character that lasts against Luke is above or at least comparable to DE Sidious.

We see them exchange lightsaber strikes literally for 2 seconds before he runs away. This example proves nothing and has no relevance to fight with Caedus where both characters performed extremely well in a long fight and both were badly battered. There is no single Luke's fight after Caedus, where he would fight as impressively and lethally as against Caedus.

@Arhael -

1. How on earth are pre-DE Luke's feats above Yoda?

Yoda never failed to lift a pillar, lol. Facial expressions are overrated, and film media doesn't correlate with EU showings.

2. I'm aware of how powerful he is, but Sidious is plainly better.

3. Actually, several sources claim Yoda held back, but this is an area in which sources disagree. But in any event, he should have blitzed Ventress, yet sources state he required everything he had to defeat Ventress.

4. Read the blog about Sidious vs Mace before you tell me he wasn't amped, lol. It's a complicated affair but it's certainly logical/supported by evidence.

5. That was addressed in the blog as well. You really didn't bother to read it, did you?