Originally posted by SunRazer
@DarthPower - Luke won after being amped by Leia's Force Harmony, he was also demolished in an earlier fight.
As to the earlier fight, the difference is that Luke was corrupted by darkside, he wasn't himself, his mindset was a mess. In second fight Luke had clear mind and fully embraced lightside, that's why he performed much better.
The audio introduced/altered different parts of the comics (especially in Empire's End). In it, she claims Palpatine and Luke are faster than she can see but she doesn't do that in the comics. She wasn't amping him in the audio drama, but in the comic, she's clearly glowing/giving off some light which was basically how they depicted Force Harmony. There's also another source claiming that Luke defeated Palpatine with Leia's help - I'll find it and post it.
That being said, Luke just short of Dark Empire was hardly on par with Palpatine, and as quickly as he grows in strength, it's not nearly that drastic. And if I recall correctly, Luke just after Dark Empire really wasn't Palpatine level, either. Clearly there's a level of discrepancy in his showings around this time.
The earlier fight in the cloning lab was not Luke's mind being a mess. He wasn't even corrupted - that happened after the fight. He had to draw on all of his resources to merely parry Palpatine's blows, but then again, Byss (and Palpatine) was a dark side nexus - but not one of considerable power. His corruption occurred after the duel, during it, he was resolute in fighting Palpatine, and if I recall correctly, either the Dark Empire endnotes or Dark Empire Sourcebook or some similar source confirms this.
Originally posted by SunRazer@DarthPower - Luke won after being amped by Leia's Force Harmony, he was also demolished in an earlier fight.
That was on a Dark Side Nexus when Palpatine "demolished" Luke.
And if you read it instead of just looking at the pictures, they exchanged quite a few strikes even in that fight. So it wasn't the stomp people make out, even there.
Originally posted by SunRazer
She wasn't amping him in the audio drama, but in the comic, she's clearly glowing/giving off some light which was basically how they depicted Force Harmony. There's also another source claiming that Luke defeated Palpatine with Leia's help - I'll find it and post it.
You need more prrof than she was glowing. Luke was glowing when he first ignites his Lightsaber. So what? Like you've already pointed out, she wasn't amping him in the audio, and there's no description in the novel that says she was amping him.
As for your other source claiming Luke defeated Palpatine with Leia's help- you're right he did. She aided him in meditation to overpower Palpatine's force storm. That however has nothing to do with the Lightsaber clash earlier.
@DarthPower - What novel? And the fact that she was glowing when Luke dueled Palpatine, stopped glowing after, and then started using Harmony with Luke and Anakin again suggests it. As I said, though, I'm going to find the source, but I'm pretty sure either DE Sourcebook or DE endnotes has mention of Leia helping him.
I'm aware it's a dark side nexus, and no, it wasn't a lengthy exchange, lol. Luke surprised the Emperor with a Force Push to the wall, then they clash blades for two panels before Luke gets disarmed in the third.
As I recall, that source refers to the lightsaber duel, because it specifically mentions Sidious's Wormhole later.
Originally posted by SunRazer
[B]The audio introduced/altered different parts of the comics (especially in Empire's End). In it, she claims Palpatine and Luke are faster than she can see but she doesn't do that in the comics. She wasn't amping him in the audio drama, but in the comic, she's clearly glowing/giving off some light which was basically how they depicted Force Harmony. There's also another source claiming that Luke defeated Palpatine with Leia's help - I'll find it and post it.
That being said, Luke just short of Dark Empire was hardly on par with Palpatine, and as quickly as he grows in strength, it's not nearly that drastic. And if I recall correctly, Luke just after Dark Empire really wasn't Palpatine level, either. Clearly there's a level of discrepancy in his showings around this time.
The earlier fight in the cloning lab was not Luke's mind being a mess. He wasn't even corrupted - that happened after the fight. He had to draw on all of his resources to merely parry Palpatine's blows, but then again, Byss (and Palpatine) was a dark side nexus - but not one of considerable power. His corruption occurred after the duel, during it, he was resolute in fighting Palpatine, and if I recall correctly, either the Dark Empire endnotes or Dark Empire Sourcebook or some similar source confirms this.
LUKE: (now talking aloud, sobbing) Leia.... help me...I’ve gone too far...I’ve found knowledge, all the dark things Father knew so well...the ability to control others, to destroy others if he chose! If I chose. Ben warned me, Yoda warned me---But I HAD to do it, Leia!! I had to know what happened to our father! I had to know why he chose the Dark Side...
Luke even used Force lightning during first fight with Sidious.
Bottom line darkside Luke < Sidious. Lightside Luke > Sidious.
Originally posted by SunRazer
@DarthPower - What novel?
The Graphic novel as in the Comic Book.
Originally posted by SunRazer
And the fact that she was glowing when Luke dueled Palpatine, stopped glowing after, and then started using Harmony with Luke and Anakin again suggests it.
It's hardly undeniable proof. Luke was glowing when he ignites his Lightsaber to block the AT-AT's fire. Proof would be words saying that.
Originally posted by SunRazer
As I said, though, I'm going to find the source, but I'm pretty sure either DE Sourcebook or DE endnotes has mention of Leia helping him.
Yes she did, to overpower the Force storm. Not in the Saber battle.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm aware it's a dark side nexus, and no, it wasn't a lengthy exchange, lol. Luke surprised the Emperor with a Force Push to the wall, then they clash blades for two panels before Luke gets disarmed in the third.
Again read the words, instead of just looking at the pretty pictures. 2 Panels doesn't mean anything, when the words are saying their exchanging several blows.
If you're aware it was a Dark Side Nexus then stop bringing it up as proof.
1. Ah, okay.
2. That's because he was using Barrier to repel the fire, lol. And before you ask me why it's Barrier, it's because the blaster bolts were repelled by that "glow". Odd representation of Barrier? Yes, but this is quite an old source.
3. That's not what I was talking about.
4. Exchanging "several blows" doesn't stop it from being a stomp - Kit exchanged "several" blows before he was felled. It also states Luke had to draw upon all of his resources to fend off Palpatine's strikes.
5. It was a nexus, but not a dramatically powerful one. If it wasn't there, then the fight would be longer, but Luke wouldn't win a single match if we played the fight over ten times.
@Arhael -
1. I was just noting that the audio drama does some things differently.
2. Nah - if it wasn't for Force Harmony, that feat would be inconsistent. Only a year earlier, Luke was nowhere near Palpatine. I'm aware that Luke's growth in power and skill is incredible, but not to that extent.
The NJO era starts long after DE, I'm talking about events occurring one or two years later.
3. Are you reading the same fight as me? Luke has only TK'ed Palpatine when he took him by surprise (presumably), he didn't use Lightning. Unless you're talking about something else, it's just Luke TK'ing Palpatine, who draws a lightsaber, they duel, and Luke gets disarmed.
Originally posted by SunRazer2. That's because he was using Barrier to repel the fire, lol.
Point being Glowing doesn't necessarily mean anything. It can just be the artist showing Leia is in the background. Or that her ray of light has aided Luke escape the dark side like he said.
Originally posted by SunRazer
4. Exchanging "several blows" doesn't stop it from being a stomp - Kit exchanged "several" blows before he was felled. It also states Luke had to draw upon all of his resources to fend off Palpatine's strikes.
It looked a lot more like an even exchange than Palpatine vs Fisto.
Originally posted by SunRazer
5. It was a nexus, but not a dramatically powerful one. If it wasn't there, then the fight would be longer, but Luke wouldn't win a single match if we played the fight over ten times.
The description has it as completely soaked in the dark side or something.
A Nexus is a Nexus. Can't make assumptions on what would happen without it.
But then we did see them fight Off a Nexus with Luke being in the right state of mind, and we saw what happened.
Originally posted by Arhael
Vaapad is a regular lightsaber style for Windu, nothing circumstantial. You have no proof that Windu was amped by Sidious' darkness. And your speculation on this is irrelevant.
My speculation?
"Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center- And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt."
Mace was angrier and more disturbed than he had ever been when he found out about Palpatine's true identity. The Chancellor of the Republic which he fought for was the cause of so many loses and pain in his life.
He was amped both by his own inner darkness and Palpatine's. Not much to argue here.
Doesn't matter what it seems to you. There was a case where Luke had broken leg, when faced Queller. There was a case, where Luke was out of shape at beginning of NJO. There was a case, where Luke had doubts, which allowed Lomi to drain him as well as become invisible. There was a case, where Lumiya hid behind hostages. Otherwise Luke did well in all other encounters. Inconsistency is a made up excuse to lowball Caedus in this case. Luke was in good shape, blood-lusted and badly injured Caedus right at beginning due to surprise attack and still it was a stalemate.Non of it compares to badly battering prime Luke despite starting the fight at huge disadvantage.
It was. They both badly battered each other. Fight ended, when Ben stack knife in Caedus' back.
I'd hardly call it a stalemate. Luke was winning that fight. He harmed Caedus more than Caedus harmed him. And IIRC, Luke had certain disadvantages as well.
Doesn't Caedus himself at some point admit inferiority in sabers? And since Luke is clearly the stronger one in the force, there is no point in saying a fair fight between Luke and Caedus would be a stalemate imo.
Luke's game? What are you talking about? Sidious electrocuted Luke before fight started. Sidious prefers lightsaber fight to Force fight, look at the fight against Windu and Sidious. They faced each other alone and in open field. Leia doesn't make any difference there as she was mere observer. Regardless, Sidious lost to much less experienced Luke, than the one Caedus fought.
No, Sidious despises lightsaber usage. He pretty much admited it back in 1983. It was simply satisfying for him to be so good at his enemies' own thing.
And this:
"I’ve played along with your Jedi dueling games long enough. Now, you will experience my full potency. I live as energy. I am the dark side!"
For a lightsider(especially Luke), the state of mind is very important. Luke is the ultimate Jedi, yet burning with aggravation against his own kin and the need for vengeance. It is a conflicting state of mind and it can cause even the most gifted jedi to underperform. Just look at Anakin vs Obi-wan.
On the other hand against Sidious, he was fighting for justice and the future of the galaxy. His sister was there to support him and he was focused and more stable compared to his fight against Caedus.
First, you are exaggerating things. Desann DID NOT Force handle Luke. He force pushed Luke right after Luke landed from high jump and it didn't harm him, he gracefully somersaulted back. Then Desann used lightsaber throw to topple sealing, which allowed him to escape, Luke did not get harmed by that either.Desann being able to last a few seconds on screen against Luke does not make inconsistency, it makes Desann more impressive, he was the main villain of the game, don't forget that. Bottom line he ran away becaue he knew he stands no chance against Luke.
Yeah but logically speaking, Sidious could speedblitz or one-shot Desann where Luke was bested by him. The fact that Desann was able to send him back with the force either says that Luke is comparable to someone on Desann's level(who isn't impressive at all) or that Luke can underperform sometimes. I'm going with the latter.
@KingJoker - I think so.
@DarthPower -
1. You're saying I need more proof except you haven't provided anything for that being "a ray of light helping Luke escape". Luke was already freed of Palpatine's corruption, for one, and that glow is identical to the Force Harmony glow.
No, it's not showing Leia's in the background, because after the fight, Leia is shown in the background again - with no glow.
2. Luke parried Palpatine's strikes with maximum effort, got forced back, and then disarmed. Obviously better than Kit, but not by too much. He still lost solidly.
Also, Caedus isn't a match for Luke in all-out. In sabers, he's very close, but in Force, Luke pinned him easily earlier on and he couldn't get out. He was taken by surprise, but he admits he wouldn't be able to break out anyway.
Originally posted by SunRazer
@Arhael -1. I was just noting that the audio drama does some things differently.
2. Nah - if it wasn't for Force Harmony, that feat would be inconsistent. Only a year earlier, Luke was nowhere near Palpatine. I'm aware that Luke's growth in power and skill is incredible, but not to that extent.
The NJO era starts long after DE, I'm talking about events occurring one or two years later.
3. Are you reading the same fight as me? Luke has only TK'ed Palpatine when he took him by surprise (presumably), he didn't use Lightning. Unless you're talking about something else, it's just Luke TK'ing Palpatine, who draws a lightsaber, they duel, and Luke gets disarmed.
1. It looks like Force harmony to you. It looks like comic author style. I can bring you images of Han, Lando and C-3PO glowing from that comic, don't have time to do it right now. Anyway, get back to me on this, when you find a proof that it was Force harmony during duel. I am 100% sure there is no source that would state that. Both comic and audio make it clear that Luke and Leia used combined effort only for the Force storm.
2. Luke a year earlier was pretty impressive. He faced mad clone C'baot, who was insanely powerful and did very well. Luke had difficulty against him only in final fight, when C'baot used Luke's clone who's mere presence badly affected Luke. Anyway, Luke won't look as impressive as Palpatine even years later because he relies mainly on lightsaber, while Sidious has a bunch of destructive powers. Same for Windu, he doesn't look very impressive in general, yet, he outskilled Sidious.
3. From audio book script during first duel with Sidious:
EMPEROR: Did you think you could conquer me by coming here to Byss--to the very heart of the Dark Side?
LUKE: You forget -- I am a Jedi Master now. And I KNOW something about the Dark Side!
Sound: Luke unleashes his OWN Force lightning on the Emperor. The old (young) man crashes against the wall.
Also, Caedus isn't a match for Luke in all-out. In sabers, he's very close, but in Force, Luke pinned him easily earlier on and he couldn't get out. He was taken by surprise, but he admits he wouldn't be able to break out anyway.
1. Glowing exactly like that? Somebody else mentioned a "glow" except it wasn't like that at all.
2. C'baoth's powerful, but has zero lightsaber skill. That being said, his general speed and power feats just don't match up.
Mace never outskilled Palpatine. Barring the fact that he was amped in that fight, the novel also claims that the fight was an impasse and could go on forever. He won by exploiting a "Shatterpoint" that ended up being completely non-existent and made up by Sidious.
Numerous sources canonically confirm that Yoda was more skilled than Mace, yet he only fought as an equal for Palpatine.
3. Ah, you meant that. As I said, the audio drama does things differently.
Originally posted by Sinious
My speculation?"Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center- And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt."
Mace was angrier and more disturbed than he had ever been when he found out about Palpatine's true identity. The Chancellor of the Republic which he fought for was the cause of so many loses and pain in his life.
He was amped both by his own inner darkness and Palpatine's. Not much to argue here.
I'd hardly call it a stalemate. Luke was winning that fight. He harmed Caedus more than Caedus harmed him. And IIRC, Luke had certain disadvantages as well.
Doesn't Caedus himself at some point admit inferiority in sabers? And since Luke is clearly the stronger one in the force, there is no point in saying a fair fight between Luke and Caedus would be a stalemate imo.
No, Sidious despises lightsaber usage. He pretty much admited it back in 1983. It was simply satisfying for him to be so good at his enemies' own thing.And this:
"I’ve played along with your Jedi dueling games long enough. Now, you will experience my full potency. I live as energy. I am the dark side!"
For a lightsider(especially Luke), the state of mind is very important. Luke is the ultimate Jedi, yet burning with aggravation against his own kin and the need for vengeance. It is a conflicting state of mind and it can cause even the most gifted jedi to underperform. Just look at Anakin vs Obi-wan.On the other hand against Sidious, he was fighting for justice and the future of the galaxy. His sister was there to support him and he was focused and more stable compared to his fight against Caedus.
Anakin vs Kenobi is a bad example on your part. Anakin did very well in that fight, he constantly drove Kenobi back. Kenobi was barely surviving that fight but unlike Dooku he did not underestimate him and constantly gave ground to survive. Anakin did very well but circumstances played against him.
Yeah but logically speaking, Sidious could speedblitz or one-shot Desann where Luke was bested by him. The fact that Desann was able to send him back with the force either says that Luke is comparable to someone on Desann's level(who isn't impressive at all) or that Luke can underperform sometimes. I'm going with the latter.
Happens in the old script and junior novel, but not in the novel and other sources which claim they were equals. Sources disagree on this, unfortunately.
Also, if I remember correctly, Gillard implies or states that Yoda and Sidious are equals with a blade and Mace is just beneath them. Need to reaffirm the quote, though.