ROTS Sidious/Dooku/Maul vs. Caedus/Kun/Vader

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Arhael -

1. How on earth are pre-DE Luke's feats above Yoda?

Yoda never failed to lift a pillar, lol. Facial expressions are overrated, and film media doesn't correlate with EU showings.

2. I'm aware of how powerful he is, but Sidious is plainly better.

3. Actually, several sources claim Yoda held back, but this is an area in which sources disagree. But in any event, he should have blitzed Ventress, yet sources state he required everything he had to defeat Ventress.

4. Read the blog about Sidious vs Mace before you tell me he wasn't amped, lol. It's a complicated affair but it's certainly logical/supported by evidence.

5. That was addressed in the blog as well. You really didn't bother to read it, did you?

1. You just rendered your entire argument useless. You said Luke is not as impressive as Sidious before and after. How impressive character seems depends on media and author style. Regardless, Luke showed enough impressive stuff prior to DE to believe that he can beat Sidious at least in sabers at that point.

2. Sidious is better Force wise. Jedi do not abuse Force like Sith and for that reason they rarely look as impressive. Yoda and Windu have done nothing impressive with Force comparing to what Sidious demonstrated.

3. In script/novel Yoda dodged Dooku's saber attacks for a bit without fighting back. That's the only holding back part. But then Yoda went full offensive on Dooku - no evidence that he held back at that point. In film Yoda was passive during Force fight. But in sabers Yoda went full offensive straight away, no evidence of holding back.

Who should have blitzed Ventress? Anakin? She has enough feats to demonstrate that she can't be blitzed by anyone. Your logic doesn't help here. If you want to prove something, you need to give actual evidence, not speculations.

4. I not gonna read someone a blog, where author can't spot the difference between metaphor and real thing. Vaapad is not a Force power, it can put practitioner into the right mindset, nothing more. Character can be amped either by nexus, by BM or someone channeling Force into him deliberately.

5. I don't care where it is addressed. It is a proof that Sidious did not fake his saber loss.

1. lol I rendered nothing useless. Luke's feats aren't really above Yoda's as of this time, and what pre-DE feats suggest he can beat Sidious in sabers?

2.Yoda's actually been stated as Sidious's equal in the Force, though, or at least, RotS Sidious.

3. He doesn't go on the offensive in some sources, but as I said, it's an area where sources disagree.

I meant Mace should've blitzed Ventress, which is obvious since we're discussing Mace. Anakin has nothing to do with this.

4. To quote you, "you just rendered your entire argument useless". If you're not going to read something I provide out for the sake of an ad hominem, then there's nothing I can do for you, and this discussion is over.

And I find it quite arrogant of you to dismiss something without even reading it just because it threatens your argument or supports mine. But until you actually read and comprehend it, don't expect another response from me. And it doesn't conflict with Lucas's statements - it addresses them, as I said. If you don't care where it's addressed, then I don't care for your argument. Goodbye.

Originally posted by SunRazer
But in any event, he should have blitzed Ventress, yet sources state he required everything he had to defeat Ventress.

That's clearly an exaggeration though, given that would put Windu on TCW Kenobi's level at best.

Originally posted by SunRazer

And I find it quite arrogant of you to dismiss something without even reading it just because it threatens your argument or supports mine. But until you actually read and comprehend it, don't expect another response from me. And it doesn't conflict with Lucas's statements - it addresses them, as I said. If you don't care where it's addressed, then I don't care for your argument. Goodbye.

It's not exactly fair of you to not provide an argument and instead refer your debator to a blog. A blog's not exactly something he can argue back against. That would require him making his own blog, going into detail about every point of your blog.

I didn't ask him to retaliate against a blog. I've made this argument elsewhere countless times, but copying the entire argument onto here is not something I would enjoy doing, nor is a giant wall of text entertaining to read.

My points are just in that blog, which will probably explain it better than I could (and it has substantial evidence to support those points as well). I'm asking him to read the blog so he knows what I'm saying, but refusing to read the blog at all is essentially refusing to read my argument. He can take as much time as he wants - I don't have set time limits on debates before declaring a victor or something, unlike some others, but it's just that if you don't even make an effort to try an understand the opposition's argument, then why bother responding at all?

And I'm sorry if I came off as harsher than I intended to, or if I will do so again in the near-future, since I'm currently under some stressful issues at the moment.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. lol I rendered nothing useless. Luke's feats aren't really above Yoda's as of this time, and what pre-DE feats suggest he can beat Sidious in sabers?

2.Yoda's actually been stated as Sidious's equal in the Force, though, or at least, RotS Sidious.

3. He doesn't go on the offensive in some sources, but as I said, it's an area where sources disagree.

I meant Mace should've blitzed Ventress, which is obvious since we're discussing Mace. Anakin has nothing to do with this.

4. To quote you, "you just rendered your entire argument useless". If you're not going to read something I provide out for the sake of an ad hominem, then there's nothing I can do for you, and this discussion is over.

And I find it quite arrogant of you to dismiss something without even reading it just because it threatens your argument or supports mine. But until you actually read and comprehend it, don't expect another response from me. And it doesn't conflict with Lucas's statements - it addresses them, as I said. If you don't care where it's addressed, then I don't care for your argument. Goodbye.

1. I gave examples of Luke's TK feats that are more impressive than Yoda's or Windu's. You blamed media difference. Yet, you say that Luke's feats aren't as impressive. That doesn't make sense.

Luke stalemated Vader in RotJ in sabers and even beat him in rage. He was hardly trained at the time. At some point later Luke beat Lumiya. Lumiya wasn't an easy opponent even for prime Luke, which implies that Luke's saber skill was close to perfection even before DE.

2. Stated to be equal is not the same as demonstrate Force feats. If we go by that logic Luke was stated to become what father could be, which is above Sidious.

3. Yoda goes offensive in all three sources: script/novel/film, unless you have some other sources in mind. Regardless, film source is more than enough to base opinion on.

4. Yep, it is pretty much over. You point me to speculations of a random author. Superconduit loop, channel inner darkness into weapon of light, accept speed and fury - those are all metaphors that cannot be taken seriously. Regardless, whatever is the case Windu is at best on par with Yoda in sabers, so whatever you will bring up will not change my mind about where Caedus is in terms of combat prowess.

Did you mean this blog?
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/

If yes, I read it ages ago and outright disagreed with it for the reasons I gave you.

1. I did ask foremost for what proves Luke is above Sidious before DE, but you were also blatantly lowballing Yoda. Maybe using some Legends showings to make it fairer might work? Yoda was never strained against the pillar in the novel, nor was he strained against the X-Wing, whereas the film implies he was. And Yoda's easily lifted entire battalions of droids, slammed together a pair of several-hundred-meter vessels, etc.

2. Luke is above Sidious, lol. But that's Luke in his prime, which isn't DE Luke.

3. There's also the junior novel, etc.

4. You claim everything is a metaphor because you don't like it? As for channeling inner darkness - that's not a metaphor, that's the function of Vaapad. And Mace isn't on par with Yoda, as numerous sources have confirmed Yoda's superiority. And I posted those sources here before as well, in the Ven Zallow vs Sora Bulq thread. The one source which suggests Mace's unparalleled skills is obviously "hyperbole", and it's outnumbered anyway.

5. You'll have to give me an actual rebuttal before I can actually respond to that, lol. But if you want to call it off, then be my guest.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I did ask foremost for what proves Luke is above Sidious before DE, but you were also blatantly lowballing Yoda. Maybe using some Legends showings to make it fairer might work? Yoda was never strained against the pillar in the novel, nor was he strained against the X-Wing, whereas the film implies he was. And Yoda's easily lifted entire battalions of droids, slammed together a pair of several-hundred-meter vessels, etc.

2. Luke is above Sidious, lol. But that's Luke in his prime, which isn't DE Luke.

3. So junior novel takes precedence? It is clear both in script and novel that Yoda tried to kill him. Even if we assume that Yoda did not try to kill Dooku, disarming techniques are just as effective, it is easier to disarm opponent rather than kill. Dooku held his own against Yoda on two occasions, there is nothing more to it.

4. You claim everything is a metaphor because you don't like it? As for channeling inner darkness - that's not a metaphor, that's the function of Vaapad. And Mace isn't on par with Yoda, as numerous sources have confirmed Yoda's superiority. And I posted those sources here before as well, in the Ven Zallow vs Sora Bulq thread. The one source which suggests Mace's unparalleled skills is obviously "hyperbole", and it's outnumbered anyway.

5. You'll have to give me an actual rebuttal before I can actually respond to that, lol. But if you want to call it off, then be my guest.

1. That cartoon source was claimed by Filoni to be exaggerated. Regardless, as you pointed media differences yourself, it makes it impossible to make real comparison.

2. Agree to an extend. Imho Luke reached his potential by that point but was still not as skilled with certain Force techniques as he is in later books. Hence he could match Sidious in sabers but to counter Force storm he needed Leia's help. Later on Luke incorporated unarmed combat into his saber style, which made him even more dangerous with lightsaber.

3. So junior novel takes precedence? It is clear both in script and novel that Yoda tried to kill him. Even if we assume that Yoda did not try to kill Dooku, disarming techniques are just as effective, it is easier to disarm opponent rather than kill. Dooku held his own against Yoda on two occasions, there is nothing more to it.

4. I say it is metaphora because it is. Inner darkness is Windu's personality, temper, negative emotions, anything associated with darkside. Vaapad allows him to use those emotions for good. It's all about state of mind. For some characters it is anger. For some characters it is calm. For Windu it is Vaapad. There is no way to prove that Windu was enchanced by Vaapad against Sidious more than he was against Kar Vastor, Grievous or blaster bolts...

5. Well, you have theory that Sidious threw up saber fight. I gave you quote that disproves it. I don't see what else I need to add. Anyway, it hardly matters in this thread.

1. Filoni also claimed Council Members can destroy Luke and that Grievous sucks except for intimidation.

2. I don't know what you're talking about.

3. I never said it takes precedence, I said it's one of the areas where sources conflict and it's hard to claim one thing as "absolutely right."

4. Some of it is metaphorical but translating inner darkness into a weapon of light is not a metaphor.

5. Your quotes haven't disproved anything, and they were addressed in the blog which you still haven't read.

The fight between caedus and luke was far from a stalemate. These r jacens thoughts directly after the fight.

"Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on him than he had suffered himself, and had even escaped the garrote before ben struck. In fact it was probably that attack that had saved caedus life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of ben slipping so far to the dark side.

It was a memory that both frightened Caedus and burned his pride."

Sinuous is pretty spot on with his interpretation of Lukes mental state and disadvantages. He had a barely healed chest wound, was shocked and horrified at finding his nephew torturing his son, and spent the last parts of the fight worried about and protecting ben. Also ya Luke kind of surprised him i guess but that was only because he was able to hide his presence from Caedus even when he was right behind him, and the fact that ben told him luke was on the ship and coing for him, that he was getting closer, and finally right behind him. At some point it stops being a sneak attack and becomes jacen just being dumb.

Im also a little surprised that some people think that conflicted rage mode luke is a more effective/superior combatant to calm focused luke. A few example would be lomi and lumiya. When he faced them and had fears/doubts and anger they were tough fights. When he surrendered all of that and was all calm and peaceful and shit he tooled on them almost effortlessly. Before his final fight with lumiya where he killed her, on his way to face her he comments how calm and clear minded that he is.

"But apart from the fact that he was minus everything good in his heart except ben, luke felt like his old self for the first time in years. He felt clarity. He knew what he had to do, and there were no gray areas or ambiguities about who was right and who was wrong. For all his pain, the sense of clean focus gave him something to cling to."

The best example would be when he went to fight shimraa.- "jacen recalled watching his uncle on Belkadan, where the war had begun, wielding 2 lightsabers when he had come to jacens resxue. But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the control luke demonstrated now.

His single blade might as well have been ten or twenty. He took steps at a lightning pace, burning his way thru dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen thru the force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet it all poured from a calm center; an eye. He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought.

In fact, Luke didnt seem to be there at all-physically or as an individual personality."

I just dont see how luke being shocked, horrified, and having much of his focus being on the welfare of his son makes him a superior or even close to equal combatant as his calm/focused self.

👆 👆 👆

@ Arhael

I'm sorry I didn't see your reply to my last post. I'll respond asap.

Originally posted by Arhael
What other showings? I partially addressed it to SunRazer. Let me know, if you want me to address anything else.

Luke is slightly better than Caedus, I never denied that. It more than enough competency to take down Sidious.

Where Luke pinned Caedus, Caedus did not try to use Force to counter Luke, so the example is irrelevant.
Luke's state of mind was good, he was blood lusted and that is the only reason Luke was more dominant during the fight.
Caedu's confession doesn't mean much as from their fight it is clear that they are on the same level.

Yep. And when he can't win the Force fight, he will have no choice but continue with lightsaber. Caedus might not know Force storm and essense transfer, he is still likely more powerful than Sidious.

As I said. Caedus did not try to fight back in prior meeting. He tried to avoid provoking Luke and sort it out with words instead. You can see from the text that Caedus tried to move but did not try to use Force.

Anakin is not normally capable to outduel Dooku. Anakin managed to grab Dooku's hand and chop his hands off after a few clumsy lightsaber strikes, in other circumstances Anakin might not be as lucky.

Anakin's performance against Kenobi is far more impressive than against Dooku.
He was pressing him non-stop. But Kenobi is better than Dooku at defensive style and with knowledge of Anakin's moves could survive anyting unlike Dooku.
Anakin is not as skilled with TK as Dooku and before he could overpower Kenobi with TK, they got split up by explosion.

At no point Desann showed upper hand. Force pushing Luke just after Luke landed from a high fall, which did not cause any damage to Luke, is nothing impressive.

We see them exchange lightsaber strikes literally for 2 seconds before he runs away. This example proves nothing and has no relevance to fight with Caedus where both characters performed extremely well in a long fight and both were badly battered. There is no single Luke's fight after Caedus, where he would fight as impressively and lethally as against Caedus.

Mace Windu is shown to be on the same level with the likes Dooku who would be trashed by Sidious. They are clearly not on the same level. Everything about that fight tells us that Mace was amped. The novel confirms it too. So what are you trying to prove here?

Luke wasn't in good shape at all. He was wounded in the chest. Had conflicting thoughts. Was afraid of his own anger and was worried about Ben. I think the reason why that fight was more like a street brawl instead of a proper duel is because Luke was messed up inside and so he fought recklessly on a weird level. Since he was the one who dominated the fight, Caedus had to cope wit it.

LOL @ Caedus being more powerful than Sidious. Who is the strongest person that Caedus defeated with the force? Sidious in pre ANH, has easily taken care of Galen with his lighting. Galen himself has comparable force feats to Caedus.

That is your interpretation of the whole Dooku/Anakin/Kenobi dynamics and I get what you're saying. However, Dooku is clearly superior to Kenobi in every way. The fact that Anakin was "lucky" enough to beat him in a straight duel kinda supports my claim. Anakin was also messed up inside when he fought Kenobi and so he underperformed. Pretty simple.

Don't be fooled by the aggressive style that took place in this fight. Luke fought recklessly and lacked discipline and control. Just look at some of the fights in PT like Anakin vs Dooku or Sidious vs Yoda. They are focused and fight with a respectable style until one of them bests the other with superior skill or speed.

Luke simply puked his frustration on his nephew and I guess Caedus was enough to keep up? That doesn't put Caedus above ROTS Sidious. 👆

@ Sinious, nice post 👆

Originally posted by Raptor22
The fight between caedus and luke was far from a stalemate. These r jacens thoughts directly after the fight.

"Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on him than he had suffered himself, and had even escaped the garrote before ben struck. In fact it was probably that attack that had saved caedus life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of ben slipping so far to the dark side.

It was a memory that both frightened Caedus and burned his pride."

Sinuous is pretty spot on with his interpretation of Lukes mental state and disadvantages. He had a barely healed chest wound, was shocked and horrified at finding his nephew torturing his son, and spent the last parts of the fight worried about and protecting ben. Also ya Luke kind of surprised him i guess but that was only because he was able to hide his presence from Caedus even when he was right behind him, and the fact that ben told him luke was on the ship and coing for him, that he was getting closer, and finally right behind him. At some point it stops being a sneak attack and becomes jacen just being dumb.

Im also a little surprised that some people think that conflicted rage mode luke is a more effective/superior combatant to calm focused luke. A few example would be lomi and lumiya. When he faced them and had fears/doubts and anger they were tough fights. When he surrendered all of that and was all calm and peaceful and shit he tooled on them almost effortlessly. Before his final fight with lumiya where he killed her, on his way to face her he comments how calm and clear minded that he is.

"But apart from the fact that he was minus everything good in his heart except ben, luke felt like his old self for the first time in years. He felt clarity. He knew what he had to do, and there were no gray areas or ambiguities about who was right and who was wrong. For all his pain, the sense of clean focus gave him something to cling to."

The best example would be when he went to fight shimraa.- "jacen recalled watching his uncle on Belkadan, where the war had begun, wielding 2 lightsabers when he had come to jacens resxue. But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the control luke demonstrated now.

His single blade might as well have been ten or twenty. He took steps at a lightning pace, burning his way thru dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen thru the force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet it all poured from a calm center; an eye. He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought.

In fact, Luke didnt seem to be there at all-physically or as an individual personality."

I just dont see how luke being shocked, horrified, and having much of his focus being on the welfare of his son makes him a superior or even close to equal combatant as his calm/focused self.

You do realize that you just make a bunch of opinions. There is no way to know how view of son being tortured affected Luke. It obviously angered him but anger makes Force user stronger. During fight first punch to the healed wound did not affect Luke, this disadvantage is exaggerated and still it is nowhere as bad wound as a fresh kidney wound.

Luke worried about son only in one moment near the end of the fight and again it does not prove that his performance was affected cos of that, worry for someone in fact can empower Force user as it gives them the reason to fight for. As example look at Galen's feat he performed to save rebels. Luke's fear for Leia is what gave him strength to defeat vastly more skilled Vader.

You say Luke was conflicted. It is clear he was angry, there is no proof that he was conflicted. Lomi Plo is bad comparison, Luke had doubts at that time. Against Jacen Luke had no doubts, his single intent was to kill Jacen, even when Jacen was trapped in vines, Luke had no hesitation to try to spare him.

Lumiya comparison actually proves my point. Luke killed Lumiya through desire to avenge for his wife, similar to how Luke tried to kill Jacen for torturing his son.

I don't see how bringing example of Luke in Unifying Force helps your argument either. In that book Luke performed only marginally better than Jacen and Jaina against Slayers. And in fight between Luke and Caedus they were described "faster than the eye could see". There is no need for excessive poetry to know that Luke and Caedus perform their best.

You can analyze all you want, you can't prove that Luke wasn't performing his best. I can't prove that he fought his best either but they way he fought looks very impressive to me.

Originally posted by Sinious
Mace Windu is shown to be on the same level with the likes Dooku who would be trashed by Sidious. They are clearly not on the same level. Everything about that fight tells us that Mace was amped. The novel confirms it too. So what are you trying to prove here?

Luke wasn't in good shape at all. He was wounded in the chest. Had conflicting thoughts. Was afraid of his own anger and was worried about Ben. I think the reason why that fight was more like a street brawl instead of a proper duel is because Luke was messed up inside and so he fought recklessly on a weird level. Since he was the one who dominated the fight, Caedus had to cope wit it.

LOL @ Caedus being more powerful than Sidious. Who is the strongest person that Caedus defeated with the force? Sidious in pre ANH, has easily taken care of Galen with his lighting. Galen himself has comparable force feats to Caedus.

That is your interpretation of the whole Dooku/Anakin/Kenobi dynamics and I get what you're saying. However, Dooku is clearly superior to Kenobi in every way. The fact that Anakin was "lucky" enough to beat him in a straight duel kinda supports my claim. Anakin was also messed up inside when he fought Kenobi and so he underperformed. Pretty simple.

Don't be fooled by the aggressive style that took place in this fight. Luke fought recklessly and lacked discipline and control. Just look at some of the fights in PT like Anakin vs Dooku or Sidious vs Yoda. They are focused and fight with a respectable style until one of them bests the other with superior skill or speed.

Luke simply puked his frustration on his nephew and I guess Caedus was enough to keep up? That doesn't put Caedus above ROTS Sidious. 👆

You can't prove that Dooku would be trashed by Sidious because Dooku held his own against Yoda. Windu similarly held his own against Sidious. If you look closely Windu was on the defensive most of the fight but was lucky to disarm Sidious at the end.

You make baseless statements. Show me a single conflicting thought of Luke during fight from the book. Where did you read that Luke was worried of his own anger during fight? Stop making things up.

About chest wound:
"Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.

Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt.

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees."
As per text Luke wasn't hampered by the wound, it was a healed scar, all he got is painful sensation, which did not affect him. You can see that Luke followed up with effective combo. Regardless, this healed scar is nowhere as bad as fresh kidney wound dealt by Luke with a surprise attack.

That fight was like a brawl because that's how Jacen fights. Luke's combos clearly were very effective as he badly concussed Jacen right at the beginning of the fight. You are free to think that it is not as effective as standard lightsaber combat but you have no good basis for that. Anakin defeated Dooku by grabbing his lightsaber hand, not a standard saber technique. Windu defeated Sidious with kick in the face, again not a standard lightsaber tehnique. Mara defeated Lumiya and nearly killed Caedus with her brawl style of fighting.

Since when a character needs to defeat someone with the Force to evaluate power? Anyway, Caedus Force handled Katarn and Jaina.
As of Galen, read novel. Galen stalemating Sidious and made him haul in pain, and stopped only to save rebels.

Dooku is not superior to Kenobi in every way. Kenobi has much better saber defensive skills and stamina. Kenobi demonstrated it well, when he faced Maul/Opress and Anakin. For Dooku fight ended, when Anakin grabbed his saber hand. Anakin grabbed Kenobi's saber hand too but Kenobi proved to be more versatile than Dooku in that regard.

Originally posted by Arhael
You do realize that you just make a bunch of opinions. There is no way to know how view of son being tortured affected Luke. It obviously angered him but anger makes Force user stronger. During fight first punch to the healed wound did not affect Luke, this disadvantage is exaggerated and still it is nowhere as bad wound as a fresh kidney wound.

Luke worried about son only in one moment near the end of the fight and again it does not prove that his performance was affected cos of that, worry for someone in fact can empower Force user as it gives them the reason to fight for. As example look at Galen's feat he performed to save rebels. Luke's fear for Leia is what gave him strength to defeat vastly more skilled Vader.

You say Luke was conflicted. It is clear he was angry, there is no proof that he was conflicted. Lomi Plo is bad comparison, Luke had doubts at that time. Against Jacen Luke had no doubts, his single intent was to kill Jacen, even when Jacen was trapped in vines, Luke had no hesitation to try to spare him.

Lumiya comparison actually proves my point. Luke killed Lumiya through desire to avenge for his wife, similar to how Luke tried to kill Jacen for torturing his son.

I don't see how bringing example of Luke in Unifying Force helps your argument either. In that book Luke performed only marginally better than Jacen and Jaina against Slayers. And in fight between Luke and Caedus they were described "faster than the eye could see". There is no need for excessive poetry to know that Luke and Caedus perform their best.

You can analyze all you want, you can't prove that Luke wasn't performing his best. I can't prove that he fought his best either but they way he fought looks very impressive to me.

"it had to be a bad dream"

"Luke had to be imagining this"

"But he started to accept that the horrible scene was real"

And if u dont think finding jacen torturing ben took at leats part of his focus away from the fight, and that not fighting him with 100% focus is a disadvantage for luke then were just going to have to agree to disagree on thst one.

As for the chest wound vs kindy stab the text supports the chest wound as a disadvantage and the kidney shot as an actual advantage as stupid as that sounds.-

"Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with lumiya, and now his breath came in short painful gasps."

Compare that to- "even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster."

It actually made him stronger and faster with no mention of it hampering him.

I dont think i said he was conflicted anywhere. I said he fights better when he is calm and focused as opposed to angry and with his focus divided.

I dont see how the lumiya exapmple helps ur point at all. His reason for killing her might have been to avenge mara, but his mental state was one of calm focus, the opposite of how he fought jacen.

How did luke only do marginally better against the slayers? Iirc he was fighhting 6-8 at a time and was housing them, while jacen and jaina were only fighting 2-3 and struggling.

Originally posted by Arhael
You can't prove that Dooku would be trashed by Sidious because Dooku held his own against Yoda. Windu similarly held his own against Sidious. If you look closely Windu was on the defensive most of the fight but was lucky to disarm Sidious at the end.

Actually, I can. Maul and Dooku are same tier duelists(although I admit Dooku is slightly superior) and Sidious is proven to be capable of trashing Maul.

You make baseless statements. Show me a single conflicting thought of Luke during fight from the book. Where did you read that Luke was worried of his own anger during fight? Stop making things up.

About chest wound:
"Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.

Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt.

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees."
As per text Luke wasn't hampered by the wound, it was a healed scar, all he got is painful sensation, which did not affect him. You can see that Luke followed up with effective combo. Regardless, this healed scar is nowhere as bad as fresh kidney wound dealt by Luke with a surprise attack.

Raptor has provided the text that proves my statements aren't baseless regarding this.

That fight was like a brawl because that's how Jacen fights. Luke's combos clearly were very effective as he badly concussed Jacen right at the beginning of the fight. You are free to think that it is not as effective as standard lightsaber combat but you have no good basis for that. Anakin defeated Dooku by grabbing his lightsaber hand, not a standard saber technique. Windu defeated Sidious with kick in the face, again not a standard lightsaber tehnique. Mara defeated Lumiya and nearly killed Caedus with her brawl style of fighting.

You miss the point. I'm not saying the killing blow or the strike that ends the fight is supposed to be landed with a lightsaber but the fight in question is clearly a very emotional and personal one that lacked discipline and control. Both these characters are top tier duelists and would normally fight with more technique than the simple brutality they've displayed.

Sorry man, one duel with Luke(which he was losing) won't put Caedus above ROTS Sidious.

Since when a character needs to defeat someone with the Force to evaluate power? Anyway, Caedus Force handled Katarn and Jaina.
As of Galen, read novel. Galen stalemating Sidious and made him haul in pain, and stopped only to save rebels.

Dooku is not superior to Kenobi in every way. Kenobi has much better saber defensive skills and stamina. Kenobi demonstrated it well, when he faced Maul/Opress and Anakin. For Dooku fight ended, when Anakin grabbed his saber hand. Anakin grabbed Kenobi's saber hand too but Kenobi proved to be more versatile than Dooku in that regard.

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Team 1.

Basically this is how the battle will go down. Sidious will fight caedus, dooku will fight Kun and maul will fight vader. I'd say that SOD maul can hold off vader for enough time to get what team 1 needs. As duelist Sidious as of this time is slightly better than caedus so will be holding him off and when vader opens him up with one hand Sidious will use his true force lightning this taking vader out. Dooku will be holding off Exar Kun and winning thus Exar Kun would be taken out. Team 1 wins