Starkiller vs. Darth Nyriss (sabers only)

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
SK was able to contend Master swordsmen like Ti who was considered one of the most accomplished duelists of the order(TCW magazine) and was also revered by her fellow peers(TCW magazine). Not to mention considered dangerous by Mace(LoE)

That alone should put him above Nyriss in combat, adding Vader to the mix is just overkill.

Starkiller wins this IMO

So I shall assume that Lord Praven is above Darth Nyriss in combat, and adding Darth Vader to the mix is just overkill?

How about realizing the fact that Nyriss outdueled two expert swordsmen (and) accomplished warriors [i.e. Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik], and is therefore among the finest lightsaber duelists yet witnessed?

Sadic >>>> Praven.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You are assuming. Very much so.

Um, I just told you about something that did happen. The Sith Empire fell. There's a ton of variables there. The two things I mentioned were very plausible possibilities that you did not refute and those were just two random thoughts. Regardless, 3 and a half thousand years is a hell of a long time. It's illogical to dismiss that timespan as not relevant without knowledge. Your not taking into account the fact that they potrayed Dromund Kaas based on existing material, not what could or may have happened.

It's funny how this is a valid conclusion to make whereas in other cases of ambiguity and a lack of knowledge people have always erred on the safe side. We don't know how Vitiate killed the Darth Council so we don't rule out a prepped ritual as a possibility. We cannot use nexus feats because we can't tell how big the amp was. Yet here it's just an easy assumption to make. 3,500 years of unknown variables is no reason to doubt something.

And again, you're just assuming that it lost it's potency. It is not likely inferred at all.

This is not a case of ambiguity or lack of knowledge, so its irrelevant to draw those comparisons.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I can only assume your implying that the supposed light side nexus of the Jedi Temple should have weakened them.

This is not how it works. Where the dark side is oppressive, the light side is passive. Only dark side nexuses are know to stifle one's ability to wield the Force, a light side nexus, if any such thing can exist, as they are merely referred to as "Force nexuses", simply doesn't possess this oppressive nature.

Indeed refer Irek Ismaren i.e. Lord Nyax, who managed to tap into to these energies. Given that it should have not been detrimental to them whatsoever.
I'm sorry but the story continues.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nyriss defeated Scourge through superior speed and strength, not skill, via her evidently superior Force ability she could and was able to simply overwhelm Scourge, and in this respect Scourge's lightsaber skills proved negilible.

Indeed as Scourge remarks:

This is made quite evident in the fight itself also:

This is effectively the extent of Scourge's ability to challenge Nyriss, in which he is too slow to even offer a counterattack and bring his martial skills to bear, and once away from Nyriss, cannot even engage her without being blown back.

And Darth Nyriss isn't lacking in skill either:

Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra's defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.

In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

If Lord Scourge hadn't helped, Meetra Surik would have ended-up decapitated at this point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sadly for Nyriss, she'll have no such luxuries against Starkiller, who should have little difficult contending with her strength and speed, furthermore as one with specialises in the art of Sith sorcery, it is likely that she favoured study of Force abilities over lightsaber combat.

Which makes it equally unlikely she'll be a superior duelist to an individual who has been forged into a martial weapon by one of the greatest lighsaber duellists in mythos.

Starkiller may have the strength to cope with Nyriss's dueling ability but he doesn't have an advantage either.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The authors of these works don't give a damn about your random thoughts, that's the thing, your not taking into account authorial intentions.

This is not a case of ambiguity or lack of knowledge, so its irrelevant to draw those comparisons.

Lol. Mad as a hatter.

It pretty much is. You have no clue what happened in those several thousand years, you have no claim to knowledge. Neither of us can say jack shit about authorial intention so that's an appeal to indeed jack and shit.

Originally posted by Trocity
Yeah, I was gonna mention that - shitting on Kit Fisto for dying to Sidious quickly, when Thanaton gets absolutely godstomped in one of the most lopsided SW fights I've ever seen and Legend will still say he's better than Dooku, etc.

Darths Nox and Thanaton had a vicious duel before the latter decided to unleash his sorcery on the former, it was at this point that Nox called upon the power of several ghosts to fuel his own to tank the powers of Thanaton and destroy him.

The combined might of several ghosts on top of Nox's original strength is simply too much for a mortal to cope with.

For comparison, some ghosts attacked and mortally wounded Darth Sidious on Korriban. The Emperor was revived in a Bacta Tank afterwards.

Do the math.

Yes, Thanaton > Count Dooku

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Speed and strength are important determinants of dueling ability just like skill.

And Darth Nyriss isn't lacking in skill either:

Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra's defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.

In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest.

Taken from [B]Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

If Lord Scourge hadn't helped, Meetra Surik would have ended-up decapitated at this point.[/b]

See above.

Starkiller may have the strength to cope with Nyriss's dueling ability but he doesn't have an advantage either.

And for the record, he does have the advantage. He's both a superior Force user and a superior lightsaber duelist. He wins. 10/10

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes they are, but what your not accounting for in this case is that Nyriss lacks the advantage of speed and skill over Starkiller, and is in fact at a disadvantage, which will contribute to her defeat.

Lord Scourge is really fast:-

1. Scourge runs faster than an auto-targeting blaster cannon can track:

"Scourge leapt to the side as a barrage of blasterfire was unleashed from the vehicle. He hit the ground in a roll that brought him to his feet just in time to spring clear of a second series of bolts. Moving with the blinding speed of the Force, he raced across the courtyard, bolts ricocheting off the ground just behind him every step of the way... The speeder had to be equipped with an autotargeting blaster cannon"

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

2. Scourge moves his lightsaber in precise blurs under heavy armor:

Instead he performed a complex routine of drills designed to hone his reflexes, all while wearing his heavy armor. His crimson blade hummed as he cycled through the aggressive thrusts and cuts of Juyo, the seventh form of lightsaber combat. The weapon moved so fast that it was nothing but a blur, but each strike was precise and controlled.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

3. Scourge moves faster than programmed Patrol Droids can react:

The Force had sustained him so far: protecting him from the worst of the heat and allowing him to move faster than his enemies could react.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

4. Scourge moves his hand faster than Imperial Intelligence member Sechel can react:

Before he could react, Scourge jabbed out with his hand, driving his fingers into Sechel’s throat.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

5. Scourge augments himself to supernatural speeds with the Force:

Two hovering patrol drones similar to the one he had dispatched earlier were the first to arrive on the scene, swooping down to floor level from one of the catwalks near the eastern wall. Scourge charged, moving with the supernatural speed of the Force.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

---

And yet:

Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive.

Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced him off balance and he staggered backward.

Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra’s defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Scourge have several interpretations of speed under his belt:

- Blur
- Blinding speed
- Supernatural
- Before enemies could react

Aside from speed, Scourge doesn't lacks in praise for his lightsaber combat skills either.

Even with the aforementioned resume, Scourge failed to contend with Nyriss on equal footing. Nyriss' speed and ferocity was such that even the author ran out of words to interpret them in proper.

I don't think that Starkiller have advantage in speed and skill over Nyriss. Sorry.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which again, is a demonstration of Nyriss' superior augmentative abilities, in this case strength. Nyriss' blows are too strong for the Exile, and she is forced into a vulnerable position. If anything the Exile's ability to "hold her ground" is a testament to the Exile's superior skill, yet it matters not against the might of her opponents Force abilities.

Sorry, but I fail to see how the above disproves the reality that Nyriss' expertise most likely lies in Force abilities, not lightsaber combat, and that she has simply not recieved the adequate level of training required to put her on Starkiller's level.

Surik held her own for a short period but would have ended-up decapitated if Scourge haven't helped her on the right moment. Do not forget this.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And for the record, he does have the advantage. He's both a superior Force user and a superior lightsaber duelist. He wins. 10/10

However, considering dueling ability for comparison only, you have yet to present evidence which suggests that Starkiller is superior to Nyriss in this aspect.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Lord Scourge is really fast:-

Scourge have several interpretations of speed under his belt:

- Blur
- Blinding speed
- Supernatural
- Before enemies could react

Aside from speed, Lord Scourge doesn't lacks in praise for his lightsaber combat skills either.

And he still was not fast enough to cope with the speed and ferocity of Nyriss. Nyriss' speed and ferocity was such that even the author ran out of words to interpret them in proper.

I don't think that Starkiller have advantage in speed and skill over Nyriss. Sorry.

/sarcasm.

All above-average Force users are described as moving as a blur, its a text book phrase.

And indeed Drew pratically acknowledges as such, saying that Scourge moves with:

the supernatural speed of the Force.

the blinding speed of the Force

Or rather, with the speed of a Force user. All Force users possess supernatural speed, because they all possess a supernatural power.

His abilities are likewise text book. He moves faster than simple machines. He moves faster than a non-Force sensitive with no physical training.

In future, don't base your arguments on subjective, vague and irrelevant adjectives, but on the actual content of the feats themselves. Scourge's feats are basic, and could be achieved by any average Knight, I am not impressed.

It is a demonstration of Nyriss' superior Force ability comprising of speed and strength. This is why Surik is outmatched.

Surik held her own for a short period but would have ended-up decapitated if Scourge haven't helped her on the right moment. Do not forget this.

Surik lost because of her inferior speed and strength, nothing more can be inferred.

Starkiller have a massive 'exploration' advantage on his side, therefore it is not possible to compare him with Nyriss in many aspects.

However, considering dueling ability for comparison only, you have yet to present evidence which suggests that Starkiller is superior to Nyriss in this aspect.

A burst of purple lightning arced down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks.

―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Nyriss on a nexus reduces two non-Force sensitives in "charred and smoking husks". Starkiller on neutral ground totally vaporises three Stormtroopers.

Starkiller > Nyriss tbh.

And I've already proven why Nyriss is an inferior lightsaber duelist, and debunked your own assertions. I can only assumed you overlooked my arguments.

Look again:

...furthermore as one with specialises in the art of Sith sorcery, it is likely that she favoured study of Force abilities over lightsaber combat.

Which makes it equally unlikely she'll be a superior duelist to an individual who has been forged into a martial weapon by one of the greatest lighsaber duellists in mythos.

The video-game is not canon and exaggerated material.

You have proof for both of those claims?

Do I need proof to make a logical claim?

Anything that doesn't contradict or exist purely for gameplay is C-canon.

--Leland Chee, Keeper of the Holocron

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/383263147445854208

Double post, my bad.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise we where gauging speed based on the fancifulness of the adjectives used to described them. I bow to your superior logic.

/sarcasm.

All above-average Force users are described as moving as a blur, its a text book phrase.

And indeed Drew pratically acknowledges as such, saying that Scourge moves with:

the supernatural speed of the Force.

the blinding speed of the Force

Or rather, with the speed of a Force user. All Force users possess supernatural speed, because they all possess a supernatural power.

His abilities are likewise text book. He moves faster than simple machines. He moves faster than a non-Force sensitive with no physical training.

In future, don't base your arguments on subjective, vague and irrelevant adjectives, but on the actual content of the feats themselves. Scourge's feats are basic, and could be achieved by any average Knight, I am not impressed.

At the start, you acknowledge that Lord Scourge is an above-average Force-user. But below, you assert that an average Knight can match Lord Scourge.

So is Lord Scourge an average Force-user or above-average Force-user? Decide on this first.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fixed, try proving me wrong with reasoning and evidence next time rather than making the same baseless assertions.

Surik lost because of her inferior speed and strength, nothing more can be inferred.

You are asserting that Nyriss is not a skilled lightsaber combatant. That she was able to outduel two expert swordsmen by virtue of her superior speed and strength. Your assertion seems to be baseless in-fact:

Whether facing a traitorous fellow Sith or a crowd of Republic soldiers, the Inquisitor fights with unlimited fury to create a storm of destruction. Expertise in conducting Force energies further allows Inquisitors to draw upon the life essence of themselves and others. This energy can be channeled to bolster their powers, harm their foes, and even to reinvigorate their allies. An Inquisitor's skills with a Lightsaber are equally impressive. Often wielding a double-bladed Lightsaber, Inquisitors use quick, guileful, and lethal maneuvers to strike their enemies down with astonishing speed.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet

Sith Inquisitors or Sorcerers do not necessarily overlook the importance of honing their talents in the lightsaber combat.

While speed and strength are important determinants of dueling ability in their own right, it is not possible to perform precise strikes with a lightsaber without proper training in lightsaber combat.

In short, factors such as speed, strength and skill [combined] determine the effectiveness of a lightsaber combatant.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Except the most important ones, case in point:http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4115293-2850813668-43c3b.gif

Nyriss on a nexus reduces two non-Force sensitives in "charred and smoking husks". Starkiller on neutral ground totally vaporises three Stormtroopers.

Starkiller > Nyriss tbh.

A dozen open-helmeted men and women in brown combat uniforms-Kota's insurgents, the apprentice presumed-came down the hangar's primary access corridor, sealing the blast door behind them. Baring his teeth, he ran to meet them, eager to take the offensive. Their rifles were no match for the power of the Force. A single, powerful push scattered them like dolls. One he blasted with lightning. A second he choked until all consciousness fled. A third he swept up and pounded against the nearest bulk-head. The rest he dismembered with graceful aggression, ignoring their cries of fear and pain.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

Also, that was a normal lightning burst from Nyriss. Her charged attack may have vaporized those guards.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And I've already proven why Nyriss is an inferior lightsaber duelist, and debunked your own assertions. I can only assumed you overlooked my arguments.

While I acknowledge the possibility of Starkiller being fast, strong, and skilled enough to contend with Nyriss, I have yet to see evidence or well-reasoned argument for Starkiller in regards to having relatively superior dueling ability.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Look again:

...furthermore as one with specialises in the art of Sith sorcery, it is likely that she favoured study of Force abilities over lightsaber combat.

Which makes it equally unlikely she'll be a superior duelist to an individual who has been forged into a martial weapon by one of the greatest lighsaber duellists in mythos.

Whether facing a traitorous fellow Sith or a crowd of Republic soldiers, the Inquisitor fights with unlimited fury to create a storm of destruction. Expertise in conducting Force energies further allows Inquisitors to draw upon the life essence of themselves and others. This energy can be channeled to bolster their powers, harm their foes, and even to reinvigorate their allies. An Inquisitor's skills with a Lightsaber are equally impressive. Often wielding a double-bladed Lightsaber, Inquisitors use quick, guileful, and lethal maneuvers to strike their enemies down with astonishing speed.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anything that doesn't contradict or exist purely for gameplay is C-canon.

--Leland Chee, Keeper of the Holocron

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/383263147445854208

Nice find, though (seen it before - forgot about it).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anything that doesn't contradict or exist purely for gameplay is C-canon.

--Leland Chee, Keeper of the Holocron

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/383263147445854208

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol. Mad as a hatter.

It pretty much is. You have no clue what happened in those several thousand years, you have no claim to knowledge. Neither of us can say jack shit about authorial intention so that's an appeal to indeed jack and shit.

Well Ok, I'll email Drew.

I mean he's already confirmed that the SWTOR(E) estimation on Sith Numbers aren't accurate, so I'm sure he'll confirm that DK is a nexus.

It states It's a nexus on the opening pages of the Revan novel iirc in Chapter 1

Originally posted by Selenial
Well Ok, I'll email Drew.

I mean he's already confirmed that the SWTOR(E) estimation on Sith Numbers aren't accurate, so I'm sure he'll confirm that DK is a nexus.

He'll just say that his opinions are unofficial. Also leave him alone, jesus. Bothering authors just to win arguments is really lame.