Dragon Ball Discussion Thread

A predictable, short, evasive response. And of course, you don't even acknowledge what you can't respond to, and then inevitably you will take your misconceptions to another thread as if you weren't already proven wrong elsewhere.

Originally posted by carver9
Flash is amped when he did that against Zoom. What else do you have?

Flash was amped by speed borrowing. Zoom was not amped up at all however. Zoom himself was one of the names your dumb ass brought up.

Regardless, it seems you are incapable of seeing things beyond a surface level.

I didn't bring the feat up for the purpose of a hard comparison in numbers, that wasn't the purpose.

I described the scene simply so you know which one I'm talking about, but the importance of it is not for the details, but as an abstraction: To compare and contrast the difference in writing style between a properly written speedster fight (Flash vs Zoom), vs badly written speedster fights (pretty much everything in DBZ/Super).

Flash vs Zoom was a lengthy fight, with lots going on. However, it was only lengthy relative to them. In real time it was a very quick fight.

On the other hand, DB/Super fights have a lot going on, but the fights themselves are often long too. Long even by human standards.

Goku's fight with Freeza on Earth just recently for example. That fight lasted for over 30 minutes.

Guys like Flash or Zoom are properly written speedsters; meaning any complicated task or hard fight is still lengthy to them to finish, but in real time its not lengthy at all. On the other hand DB/Super fights are lengthy even in real time.

Therefore its fair to expect to know how many punches and kicks DB folks are throwing in a second, because their fights last long and they fight relentlessly, second per second, only stopping to talk here and there. That's the only way to gauge their speed and not penalize them for having long fights.

On the other hand, you can't ask to know how many punches/kicks Flash or Zoom throw per second at their best because they are realistically written speedsters and would die of boredom for punching for what feels like an eternity. Therefore its a better question to ask how many punches they might be able to throw per nanosecond/femtosecond/attosecond/whateverothersecond they are working in for a particular feat.

In the end, the question remains the same for a properly written speedster or a toriyama written speedster: What is their attack rate?

1 punch per nanosecond is the same as 1 billion punches per second after all.

Can Goku throw 1 billion punches per second? That's only a few times faster than light after all. We don't know.

Also, stop with the whole "he has super speed and 0.1 second time stop! So since he has super speed that 0.1 seconds feel like a lifetime!" That was never said anywhere. Jaco emphasized the 0.1 seconds as if it was supposed to impress us that Hit had the speed to take advantage of such a small window of time.

So basically Jaco was saying Hit's speed is sufficient enough to take advantage of the 0.1 seconds, not that 0.1 seconds feels like an extremely lengthy time to him.

The point once again, the 0.1 second time table is not good as a speed feat. Hit does not do a lot during that 0.1 second, and that's passable right now only because he is holding back. In real time, that 0.1 second isn't passing after all, so he can afford to hold back.

On the next episode, it won't be passable however, because he will no longer be holding back. This is one of the rare cases that Toriyama has added the dimension of time as a very specific figure, to a subsection of a fight. So the 0.1 seconds as a figure is very important and rather unique for that reason.

What is Hit going to be able to do in his 0.1 second time leap when he is serious? Unless its told to us that 0.1 seconds feels like years to Hit when he is serious, or its told to us that he is throwing millions of blows in that 0.1 second, then the result is going to be disappointing.

Just making sure you are aware.

How about this, show me Superman fighting so fast humans are unable to see it. Provide scans please. [/B]

How about this, stop trying to derail the thread with a name I didn't bring up. You and BBrem have opted to go for this shitty, paranoid, defensive, fallacy of motives strategy as opposed to comprehending what I'm actually debating and debating that point. Which is the *fact* that the 0.1 second figure is unimpressive given the context.

Speed is the sub-topic in fiction I discuss the most, if anyone knows me. There is no inherent, predisposed negativity anywhere or an agenda/crusade to find bad feats, that's just your defensive paranoia (clearly evident in bringing up superman), I just like to dissect speed feats and come to a number, no matter the result, good or bad.

Deal with it.

The funny thing is, in the end while I have been pointing out that the scenes with Hit is a bad speed feat for everyone involved, I'm not even holding it against them. As I said, its so low that its completely discardable as a bad outlier.

Stop being so paranoid. I'm enjoying Super immensely.

Lol...wait a minute, what character has thrown a million blows in one second? Lol...show me Superman throwing a hundred blows in a second in a fight. It doesn't exist. How about this, I know you consider him a speedster. Show me someone with out any noticeable speed not seeing Superman in combat. Hell, Batman was able to hold a non holding back Supes off for an extended period of time. I don't think you want to go the speed route. You nitpicking showings is like me using this to downplay your favorite character...

Someone who could throw a million punches would've caught that crap easily. Light could've went around the planet 3 times and still caught those bullets. I can post him failing to catch Kismet who was going Mach 3. I can also post his shadow dragon fight. Are you really trying to nitpick things when you rep a character that has fts of being blitzed by street levelers. You honestly need to stop bro.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...wait a minute, what character has thrown a million blows in one second?

You phucking dumb ass. 😂

It's like you only see select words but can't string them together, or are simply too lazy to read. My whole point was that Toriyama's style of speedster writing is different from a properly written speedster.

No properly written speedster is going to throw millions/billions/whatever high number of punches per second, because doing 1 million+ of any motion is going to take a long time relative to yourself.

Let's look at it from your perspective, my dear idiot.

How long would it take you to throw 1 million punches? Assuming you don't get hungry, have infinite stamina and won't get tired or weak, and assuming you only throw a modest 2 punches per second, it would take you almost 6 days straight to throw 1 million punches.

For a realistic speedster, it would be the same deal, it would feel like days to them to throw 1 million punches, even if only a little time passes in reality.

Which is why we would judge them by what they can do in their reaction time. Again, for example, 1 punch per nanosecond, is equivalent to 1 billion punches per second, mathematically. So we'd say X-speedster can react or throw 1 punch in a nanosecond.

Unfortunately, DBZ is not written properly for speed. They have long ass fights, taking place over hours sometimes. Hours should feel like forever to them, but we get no real inkling of such, and they fight furiously at full speed, second by second. Thus it would be unfair to say "Goku fought for an hour! He didn't say it felt like a long time so he is slow!". Judging by punch rate per second is the fairest thing for them thus.

Can Goku perceive in a microsecond? We have no idea yet. Can he perceive in a nanosecond? We have no idea yet.

We do know that unlike a properly written speedster, throwing relentlessly as fast as he can over a period of seconds is something he does. Because its not like when he fights an equal its ever a short fight in real time, those fights are always long, even by human standards of observation.

Asking for a punch/kick count per second is thus the fairest way to judge DBZ/Super fight speeds, since they do fight at full speed second to second.

If X-Speedster can react in a nanosecond and throw 1 punch, he would be equal with Goku if Goku can throw 1 billion punches in a full second. That would be the exact same punch rate.

Can Goku throw that many punches per second? Who knows as of yet. But we may know soon.

We have valuable, rare information here with Hit: A given time frame. 0.1 seconds. We'll see what he can do in 0.1 seconds when he is serious, but if he doesn't throw millions of punches in that time, or at least tell us that 0.1 seconds feels like days/months/years etc to him, then we have to assume its because he can't throw that many punches per second, or that 0.1 second does not feel like days/months/years to him.

*Snip*

Are you really trying to nitpick things when you rep a character that has fts of being blitzed by street levelers. You honestly need to stop bro. [/B]

Took out the bait.

How about you respect the thread by not derailing it? I'm talking about DB Super here, a show I enjoy and is building on something I've watched since 1996.

You on the other hand are being butthurt and insecure by thinking I'm making fun of some character that you see as your own and no one else's, and trying to retaliate.

I'm not, idiot, I'm saying I don't like a feat because it's a bad feat. And then I'm saying the feat doesn't count because its too low---which is the exact opposite of what you think I'm doing.

So Hit freezing time and not doing anything fancy is what is being used against him. This is by far the weirdest debate I've seen in the history of KMC.

Also, I want you to prove that their fights are taking minutes and hours minus them floating in the air buying time. I'm talking about them in actual combat. Prove it.

Like I've said before, .1 second was said to be NOTHING in the show...what did they mention that makes this move effective? Hit speed. Mix speed with time stop, it's a deadly combo.

If you want to see what can be done by low levelers in Dragonball within a second, go look at the Master Roshi and Krillin fight (played rock paper scissor, punched and kicked at each other, taunted each other...all of this happened in less than a second).

No longer discussing this. I'll wait until the next episode. Amazing ft for Goku. Reacting to Hit while time stop is being used. I will be using this in future debates.

So is that greenish energy supposed to be Kaio-Ken?

Where did you see this? ^

The preview for 39?

Originally posted by carver9
So Hit freezing time and not doing anything fancy is what is being used against him. This is by far the weirdest debate I've seen in the history of KMC.

What's being used against him? As I said, its a low feat, and an outlier, so I'm not even counting it against them. That and he is holding back at the moment, so he is likely not at full speed.

And lol at the continued use of 'fancy' as an excuse. Using the maximum amount of time you have in an opening is being efficient, being effective. Like an assassin.

You are trying to say that he for some reason used only a fraction of his 0.1 seconds, and then willingly just waited around for the rest of it to expire, standing there twiddling his thumbs?

You use the word 'fancy' to describe him doing the most possible work with the given time he has, when in actuality its called being practical.

On the other other hand, not using the full amount of time you have in an opening is being wasteful.

Practical vs Wasteful. Those are the actual words to use here.

Regardless, as I said before, he is holding back his power, so maybe he will make a more lengthy use of his 0.1 seconds the next episode.

Also, I want you to prove that their fights are taking minutes and hours minus them floating in the air buying time. I'm talking about them in actual combat. Prove it.

Oh please, don't act dumb.

Goku and Frieza's fight lasted over 30 minutes. We know that because Whis and Beerus took 30 minutes to fly there, and the fight was still going on.

The fight was witnessed by humans too, most notably, Bulma, and there was talking going on while Goku and Frieza were trading blows non-stop in one spot. A clear passage of seconds.

Not exactly rare. Same thing happened in the Cell games.

You are probably wanting to say that the talking and standing somehow took up almost all of the 30+ minutes of Goku and Frieza's fight? Well that's clearly bullshit, which is why you are equivocating and won't say it directly.

Like I've said before, .1 second was said to be NOTHING in the show...what did they mention that makes this move effective? Hit speed. Mix speed with time stop, it's a deadly combo.

0.1 seconds should be worth thousands and thousands of years to them by now, if their speed actually developed linearly. Unfortunately, 0.1 seconds clearly does not feel like thousands of years to them. Goku himself called it a 'quick' amount of time. Toriyama is basically garbage at writing speedsters properly, that's why.

I have no idea what the hell you are even trying to get at with your incessant lip service, 'deadly combo', what are you even trying to argue with me?

Jaco tried to make it sound impressive that Hit is fast enough to take advantage of 0.1 seconds. He didn't make it sound like 0.1 seconds was thousands of years of excess to Hit, simply that despite it being short amount of time, Hit was *just* fast enough to make good use of it.

Which is why its a low, low feat. Hit barely did anything in his 0.1 seconds. He threw maybe half a dozen punches in one instance then also crossed maybe 100 feet to throw a punch in another instance.

If 0.1 seconds felt like years to Hit, then he would basically be throwing a few punches quickly, and then waiting for years doing nothing with the rest of the time stop. lol. Does that sound like something an efficient assassin does?

Toriyama should have said at least 0.000001 seconds (1 microsecond), but he stupidly went for 0.1 seconds, and thus unintentionally made Hit and Goku seem like a low end speedsters, and thus it becomes a low a feat. One which I'm sure he didn't intend for, and thus should be ignored.

Even if Toriyama went for 1 microsecond instead of 1/10th of a second, it still would have been kinda low for where you'd think they'd be now.

If you want to see what can be done by low levelers in Dragonball within a second, go look at the Master Roshi and Krillin fight (played rock paper scissor, punched and kicked at each other, taunted each other...all of this happened in less than a second).

Your memory is terrible. You don't need to bring up this feat to me, when I myself was the one who gave a rough calc of the time dilation for this scene (I believe I estimated that 1 minute would feel roughly like 1 hour to Roshi and Krillin in this scene) in this same thread, in an earlier discussion with *You*.

This particular feat as a reference is exactly why I've been saying Hit's speed unintentionally looks like Dragon Ball level. And that's why its ignorable. It's a terribly low outlier.

This particular feat is also why I said 0.1 seconds should feel like thousands of years at the very least by now in Super, if you simply scaled up linearly by power levels.

But Toriyama clearly doesn't work like that. He doesn't think like that.

No longer discussing this. I'll wait until the next episode. Amazing ft for Goku. Reacting to Hit while time stop is being used. I will be using this in future debates.

Of course you are, just like I said you would. Just be sure that when you bring up this feat, to also say that Hit can apparently only throw a few moves in 0.1 seconds and also that Goku said 0.1 seconds is a quick amount of time to him, as opposed to a very long amount of time like it should be.

Wouldn't want you leaving out details, as you are known to do.

We'll see what Hit does when he stops holding back. Hopefully he does something super impressive with his free 0.1 second allowance, but I'm sure we can predict for certain, it definitely won't feel like years to him even when he isn't holding back.

I hope to be wrong.

In the show it was said .1 second is nothing. Provide evidence that Goku said that is a lot of time.

Also, it's fun debating but I can't stand debating against liars. Here is the episode of Goku and Frieza fight.

http://animetv.top/watch/dragon-ball-super-episode-25.html

Whis tells us in this same episode that Goku left him and it'll take him FOUR MINUTES AND 30 SECONDS to get there. During most of this time, Goku and Frieza is talking. They arrive there as soon as the fight start. Also, another lie. You said Bulma seen the fight. 16 min and 40 seconds. We see what Bulma sees and it's nothing but shockwave's. She doesn't know what is going on. Stop freaking trolling.

Jaco made it sound exactly like it is. .1 second is crap but give it to someone with high end speed. The Best speedsters in history, .1 Second can Be crucial.

Originally posted by carver9
In the show it was said .1 second is nothing. Provide evidence that Goku said that is a lot of time.

That... That's exactly what he's saying. Were the characters faster, 0.1 seconds would be a long time, but Hit is only delivering 1-2 blows in that huge period.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That... That's exactly what he's saying. Were the characters faster, 0.1 seconds would be a long time, but Hit is only delivering 1-2 blows in that huge period.

He hit Frost with repeated blows when he used it against him. He also hit Vegeta with repeated blows as well? Hit isn't use to people withstand a punch from him. This was stated. His fitting style, he's accustomed to it. This is why I said wait until the next episode to see what happens.

They're really going for the cool factor with him too, ver casual and precise blows to vital areas. Not necessarily Cabba throwing everything and kitchen sink at Vegeta.

Originally posted by Damborgson
They're really going for the cool factor with him too, ver casual and precise blows to vital areas. Not necessarily Cabba throwing everything and kitchen sink at Vegeta.

Pretty much. No telling how many blows Cabba was throwing against Vegeta and looking at the blasts he was raining down on him, it was a lot but Goku and Vegeta still think Hit is faster than him. Factor in Cabba throwing all of thos3 hits at super speed and still being unable to hit Vegeta whereas Hit was able to achieve just that, it speaks volumes. Also, look at Vegeta fight against Iron dude who was throwing super speed punches at black hair Vegeta. He couldn't connect.

Originally posted by carver9
In the show it was said .1 second is nothing. Provide evidence that Goku said that is a lot of time.

About Time-leapers, Jaco said exactly this: "They can freeze time for 0.1 seconds for everyone, but during that time they can still move. Even though its only 0.1 seconds, for people with extraordinary speed, its a big advantage."

That's all he phucking said. Verbatim.

That's it. He made it sound impressive that Hit was fast enough to take advantange of a 0.1 seconds opening.

Unfortunately even a low super sonic speedster can do what he did in 0.1 seconds. He threw like 10 punches in a row to Vegeta. And then later crossed a few dozen meters to throw a punch. Those are the two most notable instances of what he did.

He is fast enough to do that in 0.1 seconds. So far, that is it.

It doesn't feel like hours to him, it doesn't feel like days to him, it doesn't feel like months to him, and it damn sure doesn't feel like years to him.

0.1 seconds feels like a several seconds at most to him, because he did several seconds worth of work at most. Several seconds equivalent of an opening in a fight is obviously a big advantage, so it works perfectly with Jaco's words. He didn't however imply that 0.1 seconds was hours, days, months, or years worth of an advantage. Otherwise Hit would be be wasting basically 100% of his time stop by only using it for a few seconds worth of work.

His only saving grace is that he is holding back, so maybe 0.1 seconds will feel longer to him once he is not holding back.

It's an embarrassingly low feat for a high level speedster. Toriyama doesn't know what he's doing at times.

As for Goku? He said "isn't 0.1 seconds the limit of your time-leap? i quickly predict how your movements will be after 0.1 seconds of time".

There you go. He said he quickly predicts within that time frame. What your dumb ass doesn't seem to understand, despite me pointing it out several times, is if 0.1 seconds felt like a long time to Goku, then he would have lost.

If 0.1 seconds felt like hours, days, months or years to him, he would have gotten merked, because he can't predict an opponent's moves hours, days, months or years ahead of time. He is famous for taking a beating before making a come back.

That's the irony you don't get. If Goku failed to beat Hit, because 0.1 seconds felt too long to him, then that would have made his speed look better.

Unfortunately he admits that predicting for 0.1 seconds ahead is a quick matter and not impossible to compensate for. And his success makes his speed look worse.

There is no getting around it.

Toriyama phucked up. Period. Even if he went with one-millionth of a second instead of one-tenth, Hit still have been below lightspeed for his amount of work. I don't know what he was thinking when he thought 0.1 seconds sounded impressive.

Also, it's fun debating but I can't stand debating against liars. Here is the episode of Goku and Frieza fight.

http://animetv.top/watch/dragon-ball-super-episode-25.html
Whis tells us in this same episode that Goku left him and it'll take him FOUR MINUTES AND 30 SECONDS to get there. During most of this time, Goku and Frieza is talking. They arrive there as soon as the fight start.

So you can't stand yourself? That's ok, I like you despite your constant dishonesty.

Episode 23, Carver:
http://gogoanime.io/dragon-ball-super-episode-23
8:02-8:07.

Whis said it would take him 35 minutes to fly Earth. So Goku ITs there instead once Gohan raises his Ki high enough to sense.
Episode 24, NOT 25, is when Goku and Frieza's fight starts.

They had a talk for a few brief minutes, he powers up and kills his soldiers by doing so, and then they get right to it.

Whis takes 35 minutes to get there, and fight is still going on when they get there.

Including any moments when they stop to trash talk, its an over 30 minute fight.

Their fight is a human length event, and thus its ok to ask how many punches per second they throw, because besides moments where they stop and talk that everyone can witness, they fight relentlessly, second by second.

Also, another lie. You said Bulma seen the fight. 16 min and 40 seconds. We see what Bulma sees and it's nothing but shockwave's. She doesn't know what is going on. Stop freaking trolling.

Jesus christ, you misunderstand again.

I'm not saying the fight is slow enough to see entirely.

It's about the fact that it is *long* enough for her to understand that a fight is going on. They are fighting relentlessly while she is able to stand around and think and talk over what's going on, so they are fighting second by second, and thus its a good question to ask, how many punches can they throw second per second? Because DBZ fights are always written to be human length events.

Another example that the scenes where they fight non-stop take place over real time seconds, is the scenery. You see debris have time to fall to the ground, you see water splashes in the ocean have time to recede back to level. Gravity has time to act normally, so scenes you see of Goku and Frieza punching and kicking relentlessly while environmental effects are happening, are occuring over seconds. Once again, how many damn punches are they throwing per second?

Saint Seiya has a character that can throw 1 billion punches per second, so its not an unfair question to ask for a similar anime like DBZ/Super to specify the amount. It's the only fair way to gauge Z-fighter speed because of their long fights relative to accurately written speedsters.

Afterall, Goku has never, ever had a long fight that lasted only a second or less in real time, his fights with equals always last a notable amount of time even by human fight length standards.

Jaco made it sound exactly like it is. .1 second is crap but give it to someone with high end speed. The Best speedsters in history, .1 Second can Be crucial.

Best speedsters in history don't think 0.1 seconds is relatively quick.
I gave you Jaco's words, verbatim.

Hit is fast enough to do a few seconds worth of work with 0.1 seconds. Not hours worth of work, not days, not months, not years, not centuries. only a few seconds worth.

A few seconds worth of an opening is always an advantage in a fight. So Jaco is right.

He just doesn't have an 'eternity' with 0.1 seconds like you wish he did. Jaco said nothing of the sort, and Hit didn't do anything to suggest he did.

Will Hit do more with 0.1 seconds when he stops holding back? I dearly hope so, but unless he does centuries worth of work, it will still be disappointing considering how far they have come.

ok

<_< Just enjoy the show lol

Seriously wtf is Comet blabbing about haha. I don't even bother reading his walls of crap anymore.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
<_< Just enjoy the show lol

I am.

A bad feat is a bad feat though, which is what I'm discussing, and its on topic.

Someone has to be here to keep Carver honest.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Seriously wtf is Comet blabbing about haha. I don't even bother reading his walls of crap anymore.

Love the guy...he's amazing but he just doesn't like the characters and it's obvious why he is watching the show. I also gave up reading his walls of texts.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Seriously wtf is Comet blabbing about haha. I don't even bother reading his walls of crap anymore.

He's talking about that time when he impgrenated Jennifer Lopez and Cheryl Cole in a hot threesome.