Dragon Ball Discussion Thread

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, good job? He can move at a fraction of the speed of sound. Excellent speed feat for DBS, clearly.

Vegeta notes from the start that his reactions are incredibly fast, but he wasn't impressed with his speed until he started time skipping.

Uh, because once his time-skip was figured out he was if anything inferior base Goku?

That doesn't mean it's his max speed, it's just something he did. Don't be purposely dumb.

They kind of go hand in hand. Unless you think the world moves in slow motion for him, including his own movements.

Goku just predicted his movements, he's about to throw down with SSJB Goku, give it time, and don't make hasty assumptions. 👆

Originally posted by carver9
Speed isn't the key factor here though. This showing is quite simple. Hit is Freezing time. Theres no way to counter time unles...

Whats the definition of Freezing time? Freezing time is when everything around you is Frozen to a standstill. This is what Hit is doing. The world around him is at a standstill. Nothing is moving. What does this mean? His opponents are not moving for .1 second. Is .1 second long. No, it isnt. Hell, to a human it isnt. It was even stated in the same issue that .1 second is nothing. Why is this so effective against the z fighters? Because Hit has super speed. That .1 second of stand still time is a humongous advantage for someone with god like speed. Its to the point that the Z fighters are saying he is using instant transmission and outright vanishing off of the field. Why is this? Because .1 second is HIGHLY effective for someone with insane speed.

Hit then mentions that he isnt use to people living after too many hits from him which is obiously the reason he isn't punching his opponent at high end speeds. LOL... you all are basically saying Master Roshi hand speed is faster than Hits. Hit doesn't need to hit you too many times to achieve Victory. This was proven when he took out Vegeta. His sisngle hits were enough. Thats like me asking why Flash hit Zoom once when he was achieving light speed? WTF. He hit him once because that one hit was effective.

Anyways. This isn't hard to comprehend. Give anyone with super speed a .1 second advantage in a fight where time literally stops, that leads to a stomp...plain and simple. I can easily post showings of Superman struggling to reach the speed of sound just to end this topic but whats the point? DBS is meant to be a fun show, lets stop dissecting everything.

This is an extremely long post, by your standards, that addresses absolutely nothing that I mentioned, because you have no idea what I'm actually talking about. Also a bunch of red herrings to pad the length.

It is an impressive showing on your end to give such loving detail in defining such basic terms such as 'Time stop', and a vague catch all term such as 'Super Speed', as if both of those things aren't already well understood and incorporated.

Read. Every. Line:

1.) My point had absolutely nothing to do with Vegeta or Goku's inability to counter Hit's real time speed. He is moving while zero time is flowing. That's instant speed. My problem is the 0.1 second statistic.

2.) To put it plainly: Hit's showing of super speed is low end. This scene irritates me because Toriyama messed it up by going with an interval as long as 1/10th of a second. He should have gone with at least 1/100th of a second.

For Hit, time is only stopped for 0.1 seconds, meaning he stops time and has to think "Alright, I have 0.1 seconds to do what I can."

The most he does in 0.1 seconds however is crossing maybe half the length of the arena and throw a punch. If the time stop wasn't there, it would have taken him 0.1 seconds to do that. That's super speed either way, obviously, but very low end, (so no need to use redundant terms).

Is he holding back? Absolutely. He didn't need to go all out right then. But the fact is for THIS particular scene, his super speed when discounting the time stop is low.

3.) Goku is the next problem I have with the 0.1 seconds. You are trying to say it feels like a life-time to them but Goku flatly contradicts that. Goku counters Hit by predicting what he's going to do, 0.1 second later.

If 0.1 seconds is super long time to Goku (let's say for example that 0.1 seconds feels like an hour to him), then Goku would effectively be saying he is predicting moves 1 hour ahead of time. Goku has been fighting for decades and has never shown the ability to think that far ahead, he gets hit all the time in his class. Let alone someone with a temp Time Stop.

But Goku is not saying that. He is not saying "Man 0.1 seconds feels like an hour for me, so I have to predict that much ahead of time!". Goku said: "I am quickly predicting 0.1 seconds ahead of time". Quickly. That means 0.1 seconds is not that long of a time to him. Even though it SHOULD be.

I feel like Goku should have no problem reacting and thinking in microseconds or less, but his statement here makes it seem like 1 microsecond would be so short it would be all but imperceptible to him. He made it sound like 0.1 seconds is equivalent to a couple of seconds at most to him. Still super speed, but low end.

4.) Once more, what is unimpressive is simply this episode. But maybe it will change in the next. Again, both Hit and Goku are holding back, but unless Hit shows in the next episode that when he's serious, he can throw millions of punches in 0.1 second, then it won't really be super impressive

(for reference, you were to punch at light speed, it would be roughly 300 million punches per second, using both hands.)

Unless he throws that level of punches, or states something to the effect that 0.1 seconds feels like months or years to him or something, then it won't really be impressive relative to where they are in the series right now.

This episode, if seriously analyzed, is a massive low feat in speed. So low that its completely discardable. That being said, my confidence wavers in how fast Toriyama actually thinks his characters fight. If you asked him how long 1 second feels to Goku and Vegeta right now, I don't think the answer would sound very impressive. For another reference, something like 1 nanosecond would make 1 second feel like nearly 32 years in comparison, and if you asked Toriyama if 1 second feels like 3 decades to Goku/Vegeta, I'm sure he'd say no.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
This is an extremely long post, by your standards, that addresses absolutely nothing that I mentioned, because you have no idea what I'm actually talking about. Also a bunch of red herrings to pad the length.

It is an impressive showing on your end to give such loving detail in defining such basic terms such as 'Time stop', and a vague catch all term such as 'Super Speed', as if both of those things aren't already well understood and incorporated.

Read. Every. Line:

1.) My point had absolutely nothing to do with Vegeta or Goku's inability to counter Hit's real time speed. He is moving while zero time is flowing. That's instant speed. My problem is the 0.1 second statistic.

2.) To put it plainly: Hit's showing of super speed is low end. This scene irritates me because Toriyama messed it up by going with an interval as long as 1/10th of a second. He should have gone with at least 1/100th of a second.

For Hit, time is only stopped for 0.1 seconds, meaning he stops time and has to think "Alright, I have 0.1 seconds to do what I can."

The most he does in 0.1 seconds however is crossing maybe half the length of the arena and throw a punch. If the time stop wasn't there, it would have taken him 0.1 seconds to do that. That's super speed either way, obviously, but very low end, (so no need to use redundant terms).

Is he holding back? Absolutely. He didn't need to go all out right then. But the fact is for THIS particular scene, his super speed when discounting the time stop is low.

3.) Goku is the next problem I have with the 0.1 seconds. You are trying to say it feels like a life-time to them but Goku flatly contradicts that. Goku counters Hit by predicting what he's going to do, 0.1 second later.

If 0.1 seconds is super long time to Goku (let's say for example that 0.1 seconds feels like an hour to him), then Goku would effectively be saying he is predicting moves 1 hour ahead of time. Goku has been fighting for decades and has never shown the ability to think that far ahead, he gets hit all the time in his class. Let alone someone with a temp Time Stop.

But Goku is not saying that. He is not saying "Man 0.1 seconds feels like an hour for me, so I have to predict that much ahead of time!". Goku said: "I am quickly predicting 0.1 seconds ahead of time". Quickly. That means 0.1 seconds is not that long of a time to him. Even though it SHOULD be.

I feel like Goku should have no problem reacting and thinking in microseconds or less, but his statement here makes it seem like 1 microsecond would so short it would be all but imperceptible to him. He made it sound like 0.1 seconds is equivalent to a couple of seconds at most to him. Still super speed, but low end.

4.) Once more, what is unimpressive is simply this episode. But maybe it will change in the next. Again, both Hit and Goku are holding back, but unless Hit shows in the next episode that when he's serious, he can throw millions of punches in 0.1 second, then it won't really be super impressive

(for reference, you were to punch at light speed, it would be roughly 300 million punches per second, using both hands.)

Unless he throws that level of punches, or states something to the effect that 0.1 seconds feels like months or years to him or something, then it won't really be impressive relative to where they are in the series right now.

This episode, if seriously analyzed, is a massive low feat in speed. So low that its completely discardable. That being said, my confidence wavers in how fast Toriyama actually thinks his characters fight. If you asked him how long 1 second feels to Goku and Vegeta right now, I don't think the answer would sound very impressive. For another reference, something like 1 nanosecond would make 1 second feel like nearly 32 years in comparison, and if you asked Toriyama if 1 second feels like 3 decades to Goku/Vegeta, I'm sure he'd say no.

It's also somewhat concerning that powerless nobodies like Jaco, the King, and Bulma are following these fights just fine with their eyes.

Bulma said she couldnt see Hit movements. Relook at the episode. Also, at the end of the day, time is being frozen for a speedster. He doesn't have to throw a million punches in a second to prove this. Flash let alone Zoom doesn't have a single showing where they've thrown anywhere close to a million punches. Hell, Zoom abilities is like Hit and he has as of yet to throw a million punches in a second.

Jaco also said he couldnt see Hit movements, the King did as well. WTF

Uh, are you daft? No one could see Hit's movements because he was skipping through time. Everyone could see SSB's movements.

Originally posted by carver9
Bulma said she couldnt see Hit movements. Relook at the episode. Also, at the end of the day, time is being frozen for a speedster. He doesn't have to throw a million punches in a second to prove this. Flash let alone Zoom doesn't have a single showing where they've thrown anywhere close to a million punches. Hell, Zoom abilities is like Hit and he has as of yet to throw a million punches in a second.

😂

Firstly, it's an apples to oranges comparison. The Flashes/Zoom portray speeds from the eyes of the speedster. Dragon Ball pretty much never does, they show it from the viewer's perspective.

For example:

The Flash and Zoom for example have had lengthy fight that covered every square-inch of the world, yet in real time the fight had only lasted under a second.

On the other hand:

DBZ/Super fights last several minutes or even hours, so we often see the fights in chunks of seconds, and we see them throw volleys of punches and kicks per second. So it would be totally appropriate to tell us how many punches and/or kicks they can throw per second. As of yet, Toriyama has not shown or told us the amount.

And just to humor you, no one needs to show a scan of a Flash throwing millions of punches per second. They react in attoseconds or less, that means 1 second would literally feel like 32 billion years to them. They aren't going to stand in one spot for what feels like 32 billion years throwing punches non-stop.

So let's shorten the time. 300 million punches per second is equivalent to 1 punch in about 3 nanoseconds.

What can the Flash do in 3 nanoseconds? A lot. Hell in .00001 microseconds (which is 0.01 nanoseconds), he was able to rescue half a million people from a nuke, by carrying them away one by one, sometimes two at a time, to a hill 35 miles away from the blast. That's far more work than 1 punch per 3 nanoseconds. 🙂

Seriously, if Toriyama doesn't show Hit doing something impressive with his free 0.1 seconds in the next episode when he stops holding back, then we can assume its because he can't. If he doesn't throw millions of punches or throw millions of little ki blasts rapid fire during that 0.1 second, then we can assume its because he can't. Because Toriyama already shows the fights from the viewers perspective and the fights last a long time.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Bbrem is right, you are wrong..just deal with.

Haha Goku is predicting 0.1 in the future because that is all Hits power allows. Nothing more nothing less. I love how you need the character to state everything that is happening.

You have to be kidding me with all these idiotic posts.

CC's point, is if Hit threw a punch at Barry Allen, he'd have 0.1 seconds out of 0.00001 seconds (Not going for accuracy, but you get the idea) to do ANYTHING. Between that time, he should be a statue to Flash.

Since Hit isn't getting blitzed by Goku and Vegeta, and he's able to spam a "mere" 0.1 seconds, which is very very slow by speedster standards, it makes Vegeta and Goku look pretty slow as well.

"But Hit's fast, too!", you say.

No. If Goku or Vegeta had 0.1 second time stop power, and high end speedster level abilities, they should do a lot more then what Hit's done using the power.

Kenshin Himura or Ranma could blitz Goku based on that showing.

The thing is Hit has amazingly fast reflexes. You are leaving so many other factors out of your thinking. Vegeta even states this too.

They cant blitz him because of this. Which is why Goku predicts what will happen the moment Hit vanishes.

But Hit seemes surpised at Goku's guard, is the thing. If his reflexes are so good, why couldn't he see that coming?

And the fact Goku can counter his moves "at base" is a pretty big deal. Sure, hit's obviously holding back, but if he can drop SSJ Blue Vegeta, he should be able to simply power his way past Goku's guard.

Vegeta got jobbed out.

I also found that odd. If Goku's tactic is to block 0.1 seconds in advance, that still shouldn't work. Why is Hit punching into Goku's guard? Is he blind when he time skips?

Originally posted by cdtm
But Hit seemes surpised at Goku's guard, is the thing. If his reflexes are so good, why couldn't he see that coming?

And the fact Goku can counter his moves "at base" is a pretty big deal. Sure, hit's obviously holding back, but if he can drop SSJ Blue Vegeta, he should be able to simply power his way past Goku's guard.

Vegeta got jobbed out.

The fact that he could react to SSB Vegeta proves he has crazy reflexes. Vegeta confirms this as well in his SSB form.

He also thought Goku hitting him was just a fluke.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
😂

Firstly, it's an apples to oranges comparison. The Flashes/Zoom portray speeds from the eyes of the speedster. Dragon Ball pretty much never does, they show it from the viewer's perspective.

For example:

The Flash and Zoom for example have had lengthy fight that covered every square-inch of the world, yet in real time the fight had only lasted under a second.

On the other hand:

DBZ/Super fights last several minutes or even hours, so we often see the fights in chunks of seconds, and we see them throw volleys of punches and kicks per second. So it would be totally appropriate to tell us how many punches and/or kicks they can throw per second. As of yet, Toriyama has not shown or told us the amount.

And just to humor you, no one needs to show a scan of a Flash throwing millions of punches per second. They react in attoseconds or less, that means 1 second would literally feel like 32 billion years to them. They aren't going to stand in one spot for what feels like 32 billion years throwing punches non-stop.

So let's shorten the time. 300 million punches per second is equivalent to 1 punch in about 3 nanoseconds.

What can the Flash do in 3 nanoseconds? A lot. Hell in .00001 microseconds (which is 0.01 nanoseconds), he was able to rescue half a million people from a nuke, by carrying them away one by one, sometimes two at a time, to a hill 35 miles away from the blast. That's far more work than 1 punch per 3 nanoseconds. 🙂

Seriously, if Toriyama doesn't show Hit doing something impressive with his free 0.1 seconds in the next episode when he stops holding back, then we can assume its because he can't. If he doesn't throw millions of punches or throw millions of little ki blasts rapid fire during that 0.1 second, then we can assume its because he can't. Because Toriyama already shows the fights from the viewers perspective and the fights last a long time.

Flash is amped when he did that against Zoom. What else do you have? How about this, show me Superman fighting so fast humans are unable to see it. Provide scans please.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I also found that odd. If Goku's tactic is to block 0.1 seconds in advance, that still shouldn't work. Why is Hit punching into Goku's guard? Is he blind when he time skips?

Hopefully they explain more in the next episode. There should be no possible way for Goku to block if he is being hit while time is frozen.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, are you daft? No one could see Hit's movements because he was skipping through time. Everyone could see SSB's movements.

Give me the minutes and seconds on when it was mentioned that they were able to see SSB movements. Also, show me scans of people not seeing high end speedsters like Flash and Superman in combat. Preferably Superman. If you're applying things like this to the Z fighters, at least be consistent.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Yea that does not make sense now that I think about it haha. He cant be blind if he is hitting his opponent in pressure points.

Hopefully they explain more in the next episode. There should be no possible way for Goku to block if he is being hit while time is frozen.

Or Goku is just that fast. Look at the scene...2 min and 54 seconds. Goku is Flying at Hit with a punch. He instant reverts to a standing position and Blocking.

https://youtu.be/oYOpc4kZ_-s

Goku knowing Hit ability is an advantage, add in the speed Goku possess, within that instant of Hit coming back to the real world after his time freeze, Goku is able to counter it (or Goku is moving faster than time itself...your choice).

I wouldnt look too much into these fights with the lousy animation.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
I wouldnt look too much into these fights with the lousy animation.

That's the thing...people are dissecting the show rather than just looking at and enjoying it. It's sad. I was impressed that Goku was able to slap the hell out of someone that is using time stop and I'm still impressed. I see it like this, if you are watching the show to find flaws then you are taking a lot of time out of your life when you could be watching a show you like or doing something outside of this during this time.