Originally posted by Selenial
Anakin had the potential to be the most powerful force user in history, Luke canonically filled that potential, I don't see why there's arguments about him not.
The argument is a mathematical argument. And looks like you proved my point. "He could become that" equates to him being more powerful than the emperor and becoming the most powerful of all time, not being 200% of the emperor.
Originally posted by Selenial
Anakin had the potential to be the most powerful force user in history, Luke canonically filled that potential, I don't see why there's arguments about him not.
IIRC, it is said that Luke became the jedi that Anakin was supposed to become. Does any official source state that Anakin and Luke had equal potentials?
Anakin had the potential to become as powerful as the Father of Mortis who is more powerful than Abeloth who is like 12 times more powerful than Luke prime.
Another source says Anakin's unrealized peak would be equal to ROTJ Palpatine x 2.
Don't know which one to believe but I feel like the latter is said in a vague way so perhaps it shouldn't be taken as seriously as the former comparison of potentials.
Originally posted by psmith81992I just did lol. There was nothing preventing Luke from fulfilling his potential, he therefore should have fulfilled his full potential.
You have to prove that he did.
Anyway let me post the full contexts of the quote for everyone:
You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.
--George Lucas, "The Cult of Darth Vader" Rolling Stone
George situates the contexts of saying "the son could become that" in the contexts of Anakin failing to achieve his promised potential because of the injuries he sustained on Mustafar. Thereby linking it to his commentary on that particular instance, and making it relevant.
He states also explicitly that Vader wasn't what he was supposed to become, but his son, Luke, could become that. To put it more plainly: Luke Skywalker could become what Vader was supposed to become.
In this quote, Lucas says Vader/Anakin was supposed to become stronger than the Emperor, but he is more specific in the second quote which I shall now remind you of:
"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side..."
--George Lucas, "Star Wars: The Last Battle" Vanity Fair Magazine
In this quote, Lucas makes more specific what Vader was supposed to become:
1. Extremely powerful.
2. Twice as good as the Emperor.
So collectively we have the following:
1. Luke had the potential to become what Anakin was supposed to become.
2. Anakin was supposed to become extremely powerful, and twice as good as the Emperor.
Therefore, Luke had the potential to become extremely powerful and twice as good as the Emperor. Again, there is no other interpretation, and this one couldn't be any more obvious.
Originally posted by SiniousYou don't have to though, G-Canon supercedes all other Canon, so therefore the source saying Abeloth is 12 times more powerful than Luke is incorrect.
IIRC, it is said that Luke became the jedi that Anakin was supposed to become. Does any official source state that Anakin and Luke had equal potentials?Anakin had the potential to become as powerful as the Father of Mortis who is more powerful than Abeloth who is like 12 times more powerful than Luke prime.
Another source says Anakin's unrealized peak would be equal to ROTJ Palpatine x 2.
Don't know which one to believe but I feel like the latter is said in a vague way so perhaps it shouldn't be taken as seriously as the former comparison of potentials.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I just did lol. There was nothing preventing Luke from fulfilling his potential, he therefore should have fulfilled his full potential.Anyway let me post the full contexts of the quote for everyone:
You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.
--George Lucas, "The Cult of Darth Vader" Rolling Stone
George situates the contexts of saying "the son could become that" in the contexts of Anakin failing to achieve his promised potential because of the injuries he sustained on Mustafar. Thereby linking it to his commentary on that particular instance, and making it relevant.
He states also explicitly that Vader wasn't what he was supposed to become, but his son, Luke, could become that. To put it more plainly: Luke Skywalker could become what Vader was supposed to become.
In this quote, Lucas says Vader/Anakin was supposed to become stronger than the Emperor, but he is more specific in the second quote which I shall now remind you of:
"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,†he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side..."
--George Lucas, "Star Wars: The Last Battle" Vanity Fair Magazine
In this quote, Lucas makes more specific what Vader was supposed to become:
1. Extremely powerful.
2. Twice as good as the Emperor.So collectively we have the following:
1. Luke had the potential to become what Anakin was supposed to become.
2. Anakin was supposed to become extremely powerful, and twice as good as the Emperor.Therefore, Luke had the potential to become extremely powerful and twice as good as the Emperor. Again, there is no other interpretation, and this one couldn't be any more obvious.
George Lucas still relevant for Star Wars related matters? He is not.
Disney have revised Anakin's canonical standing:
Discovered as a slave on Tatooine by Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker had the potential to become one of the most powerful Jedi ever, and was believed by some to be the prophesied Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. A hero of the Clone Wars, Anakin was caring and compassionate, but also had a fear of loss that would prove to be his downfall.
Source: http://www.starwars.com/databank/anakin-skywalker
Even in the Legends continuity, Anakin Skywalker had the highest midi-chlorian count "on record" - midi-chlorian count was commonly measured since 1000 BBY.
Based on this revised canon development, Luke Skywalker can become one the most powerful Jedi ever (at maximum). Even in the latest Legends continuity sources, Luke is hyped as the most powerful Jedi "of his era."
This is a Legends battle, so Disney isn't relevant here. Remember Vitiate doesn't exist in Disney, so exist>not exist.
So you have to leave Luke at Legends status. Besides, ep 7 isn't out yet, so the strongest non Legends Luke is merely ROTJ Luke, and nobody's comparing 'not even a council member' Luke to Vitiate.
Anyways. The Luke being used is presumably the Aboleth fighting FOTJ version.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
George Lucas still relevant for Star Wars related matters? He is not.
Who are you to decide that? Just because Drew Karpyshyn isn't actively writing a new up to date Revan Novel every day doesn't mean the statements in the Revan Novel aren't canon. Exact same for George, what he says now might not be G-Canon but what he said before is still perfectly valid.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lucas then goes on to claim, that Luke could fufil that potential i.e. become twice as powerful as Sidious.
Could =/= did.
Becoming the jedi Anakin was supposed to become =/= having the same potential in the force.
Also, can you share the part where he claims that please.
Originally posted by SiniousSure but most Jedi fulfill their potential, and considering Luke's canonically recognised vast rate of progression, I see no reason why Luke would had had his growth stunted. Also Lucas says it in the contexts of Force power, not skill or something.
Could =/= did.Becoming the jedi Anakin was supposed to become =/= having the same potential in the force.
Also, can you share the part where he claims that please.
And I provided it in the quote above, to be specific:
He [Vader] wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son [Luke] could become that.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDFor the Legends content created under him? Yes he is.
George Lucas still relevant for Star Wars related matters? He is not.Disney have revised Anakin's canonical standing:
Discovered as a slave on Tatooine by Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker had the potential to become one of the most powerful Jedi ever, and was believed by some to be the prophesied Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. A hero of the Clone Wars, Anakin was caring and compassionate, but also had a fear of loss that would prove to be his downfall.
Source: http://www.starwars.com/databank/anakin-skywalker
Even in the Legends continuity, Anakin Skywalker had the highest midi-chlorian count "on record" - midi-chlorian count was commonly measured since 1000 BBY.
Based on this revised canon development, Luke Skywalker can become one the most powerful Jedi ever (at maximum). Even in the latest Legends continuity sources, Luke is hyped as the most powerful Jedi "of his era."
We are referring to post-ROTJ Luke as per Legends.
That's not revised lol, the most powerful Jedi ever is obviously going to be among one of the most powerful Jedi ever. Just as Darth Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord ever makes him one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever.
Not that it matters because again we are dealing with Legends post-ROTJ Luke here not Canon post-ROTJ Luke which will exist in a completely different universe. New Canon content doesn't have any bearing on this character, G-Canon however does.
Originally posted by SiniousYou need to read the quote in its contexts:
He says Anakin didn't become what he was supposed to become and that Luke could become that. From this, all I understand is that Luke became the Ultimate Jedi that Anakin was meant to be, not that they were equally gifted in the force.
You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.
--George Lucas, "The Cult of Darth Vader" Rolling Stone
Lucas is stating this in the contexts of explaining Vader's and Sidious' interest in Luke.
As a Force user as powerful as Anakin could have been, not the ultimate Jedi.
Originally posted by SiniousIt means that he could become everything Anakin was supposed to become, that's how it reads, and you've admitted that that is how it reads.
It still doesn't mean that they were equally gifted. It means that Luke could also become more powerful than the Emperor which has never been questioned.
Lucas has said that the Anakin was supposed to have become twice as powerful as Sidious, Luke can therefore become that.
On what grounds are you omitting that from the equation?
Originally posted by Sinious
LOL I don't see how that means they were equal potential wise.
He doesn't get it.
I just did lol. There was nothing preventing Luke from fulfilling his potential, he therefore should have fulfilled his full potential.
Originally posted by Selenial
Who are you to decide that? Just because Drew Karpyshyn isn't actively writing a new up to date Revan Novel every day doesn't mean the statements in the Revan Novel aren't canon. Exact same for George, what he says now might not be G-Canon but what he said before is still perfectly valid.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It means that he could become everything Anakin was supposed to become, that's how it reads, and you've admitted that that is how it reads.Lucas has said that the Anakin was supposed to have become twice as powerful as Sidious, Luke can therefore become that.
On what grounds are you omitting that from the equation?
Isn't that in contradiction with the Mortis trilogy? I mean, Anakin had the potential to stomp the Son and the Daughter, and reach the Father's level, and the latter should be more powerful than Abeloth, who in turn is >Luke. Yes, Anakin needed a nexus amp, but that's still proof of his potential.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It means that he could become everything Anakin was supposed to become, that's how it reads, and you've admitted that that is how it reads.Lucas has said that the Anakin was supposed to have become twice as powerful as Sidious, Luke can therefore become that.
On what grounds are you omitting that from the equation?
You said the context is very important. Lucas' point was that Anakin was going to become more powerful than Sidious but Obi-wan ruined it. Yet, there's another force user that could become what Anakin can't be anymore which is being more powerful than Sidious.