Originally posted by Beniboybling
Legend, nowhere does it say "other occassions". An isolated event is something that happens once, if Sidious was sending Force multiple Force storms across the galaxy at the same time, it would be happening more than once, so it would not be an isolated event, but still happening simultaneously.Your belief that this occurred at differing times is baseless.
Mon Mothma's claim is not a concrete evidence of Sidious unleashing multiple Force Storms simultaneously.
At the end of the day, a nexus feat is still a nexus feat. Before Vitiate's arrival, Ziost was a sith world, powerful in the dark side, a great place for a pure spirit/energy being to connect his essence to.
That said, Ziost Vitiate is superior to ROTS Sidious. But DE Sidious still tops him by quite a lot per hype and feats. Tearing the fabric of space/time >> destruction of Ziost. Potentially consuming all of space with a force storm/wormhole (Comics Companion) in rage is a level of sheer raw power Vitiate could only hope to achieve.
Since the canon hierarchy is being ignored because of the separation, I guess I'll go ahead and use the Comics Companion regarding Palpatine's full power more carelessly and freely. After all, the source is one of the more objective ones.
Why do we go through this every time Vitiate gets a new feat? This, being extremely insane, will go on for more years than him defeating a group of jedi with lightning.
Sorry for keeping the Vitiate supporters waiting with my response to the main debate, but I thought it best to take some time to consider the evidence concerning Ziost in full, having down so, I am ready to share my findings. Time for the Empire to Strike Back tbh.
But first, @Neph, there is something I want to clarify.
Originally posted by NephthysLet’s get the facts straight Neph. I don’t advocate baseless speculation in any form, and I do not or have not claimed that "well maybe Sidious could do it too" at any point during this discussion. Instead I’ve been arguing that Sidious has indeed demonstrated the capability to achieve these levels of power based on evidence. However, if I didn’t have any evidence, I wouldn’t assume Sidious could perform this feat, but I neither would I assume that Sidious couldn’t perform it. Either way would be to baselessly assume, and to advocate one while forbidding the other would be a total double standard. I’d accept that no conclusions can be drawn.That isn't how debating works. Saying that Vitiate is more powerful because he's done something on a level of power above what Sidious has is a totally valid argument that makes for the basis of comparing two characters. Going "well maybe Sidious could do it too" is speculative and hypothetical and is basically complete nonsense that no-one pays any attention to.
It is evident that one character has done one thing. And another has done another thing. And one is more impressive. And the other is not. Dats the truf.
Hilariously though, this is an argument Legend has used time and again for Vitiate. I guess it's true that we all become the things we hate in the end.
Because no, who has lifted the bigger rock is not the be all and end all when it comes to comparison, and if it were, you’d arrive at some dumbass results. So I don’t think it’s perfectly valid at all and I think you’re advocating a silly and insensible form of logic, one that encourages appeals to ignorance by assuming an absence of feats is evidence in itself.
Alas this form of logic appears the accepted norm on KMC, I’m no longer interested in explaining its many flaws, an attempt that will inevitably dissolve into fruitless and exasperating flame wars. So seeing as I’m on your forms, I’ll agree to play by your rules.
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So, back on topic. Force storms aside for the moment, I believe I’ve yet to ask that you prove the Sith Emperor can achieve the Ziost feat in physical form. So I shall do that now.
Because I’m afraid his nature as a spirit eliminates that as a definite, if even a likelihood.
To explain, it is a canonical fact that the organic body can only channel so much Force energy. Something we see demonstrated when the students of Luke’s Jedi Praxeum focus their energy using the Great Temple on Yavin 4, and channel it through Dorsk 81:
Source: DarksaberEvidently, if a Force user has too much Force energy channelled through their body, it has the effect of boiling them alive, and eventually killing them. The Sith Emperor however – not being contained to a physical form when performing the Ziost feat – would have no such restrictions, possessing no physical threshold at all. The only limitations to the amount of energy he can channel being his capacity to wield the Force, not how much his body can handle. In this state, tremendously powerful and instantaneous exertions of energy would have been within his power without the risk of suffering damage or the destruction."Move!" he shouted.
The words themselves were like power incarnate, white-hot energy flaming out of his mouth, from his fingertips, surging through his body and burning, burning.
…
"Dorsk 81," Kyp said, looking down in horror as the cloned alien's skin sizzled from within, as if the tissues had been brought to a boil. Dorsk 81's wide yellow eyes were now only smoldering sockets. Steam rose from his body.
A breath of words curled out of his gaping, blackened mouth. "They're gone, my friend," he said.
"Wait!" Kyp said. "Wait, we'll find a healer. We'll get Cilghal back. We'll find-"
But Dorsk 81 was already dead in his arms.
Now you might raise the point “but the Ziost feat doesn’t compare to TKing 17 SDs!! So why would Ziost push him over the threshold?” And in the respect that the Sith Emperor has been surpassed by a bunch semi-trained Jedi, you’d be correct. That’s not in question. But you’d incorrect in assuming that TKing 17 SDs is the threshold, the point at which it becomes too much for the body to handle. It’s not, Luke for example experienced similar effects performing a far lesser feat:
Source: Dark Nest II: The Unseen QueenLuke, in creating a illusions of starships realistic enough to fool even electronic sensors, is pushed it his limits, and his body begins to suffer, this feat doesn’t really compare to Dorsk’s, or Vitiate’s, so it’s obvious the threshold of the human body is much lower, and that a massive explosion of energy like the kind we see on Ziost, could well have been above it.A flurry of streaks and flashes filled the forward viewport as the pirates opened fire on the counterfeit. Luke continued the illusion's gentle turn, keeping it well ahead of its attackers and drawing them farther away. His skin felt dry and papery, and waves of heat were rolling through his body as the cytoplasm inside his cells began to boil. He did not let up. During the past year, he and Jacen had been working on overload techniques, so he knew could endure the pain and fatigue almost indefinitely. His body would pay a steep price, aging a year in a matter of minutes, but he knew he would not collapse.
Vitiate’s ability to instantly consume an entire planet in spirit form therefore, does not equate to his ability to do so in physical form, as he may have required say 8,000 Sith Lords, ten days and the most complex ritual ever performed – as he did previously – to accomplish this without being destroyed. To assume he can without that, is to baselessly speculate.
If it is not already obvious what this means, it means that this feat cannot be compared with feats performed by Sidious while in a physical body, because the Sith Emperor was in possession of advantageous circumstances – exclusive of ability – that Sidious didn’t possess.
Now with that out of the way, I’ll return to the notion that Sidious can replicate this feat, this time by looking at Palpatine’s own Force draining capabilities.
Darth Sidious slowly siphoned the life force of 20 billion people on Byss and in the process transformed them into mindless slaves to his will. However in order to do this he had, or at least elected, to use the energy he was siphoning to in part power the process itself.
Source: The Complete Star Wars EncyclopediaYears ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.
Source: Dark Empire EndnotesAlmost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's vile machinations.
It’s an impressive feat, but is it as impressive as Ziost? Well from this feat we are able to make some estimations as to what he could do to Ziost if placed in the Sith Emperor’s shoes.
The population of the Ziost is unknown, however due to its inhospitable terrain it is likely to be sparse. New Adasta is the only city mentioned, and at no point do we visit another location. On that basis we can only conclude New Adasta to be the only city that exists on the planet.
Indeed despite the fact that the Sith Emperor has dominated the entire world, no other areas seem at all important to warrant a visit. Kaas has but one city. Korriban has but one city. Are we to believe Ziost an exception to the rule and that other cities indeed exist? I await proof.
Moving on, to begin to make some estimations on the population, we can look at Kaas City, that has a population of millions:
Source: SWTOR Codex - Kaas CityConsidering Kaas is the capital of the Empire, a hub of Imperial activity and major metropolis, we have little reason to believe that New Adasta would be at all dissimilar in numbers, and seeing as we are comparing Byss’ billions to Ziost’s millions, we can approximate a generous 20 million.Over the following centuries, its population grew into the millions–proud Imperials working toward the glory of the Sith and slaves submitting to Imperial will.
That’s one thousand times smaller than Byss’ population.
One thousand.
Do you know what that means? It means that Sidious could perform his Byss feat on Ziost with one thousand times as much ease. Or alternatively, he could do it one thousand times better. And that’s without even accounting for the fact that Sidious mentally dominated the population, as well as siphoning their life force. Mentally dominating a target requires just as much energy as draining them, if not more, so with that no longer a factor, the ease doubles.
Or alternatively, the potency doubles. That’s two thousand times as potent.
And this is without accounting the fact that:[list=1][*]Palpatine still isn’t trying. We’ve yet to factor in him applying his full power.
[*]Ziost unlike Byss (pre-corruption) is a Sith world strong in the dark side.[/list=1]No Ziost is not a potent dark side nexus like Dromund Kaas, but neither was Prakith. And yet Bane used that nexus to create an all-consuming death field of Force draining energy.
Go figure.
Irrespective of that, to suggest that Palpatine’s Byss feat on two thousand times the scale would not equate if not totally surpass the Sith Emperor’s Ziost feat is plainly ridiculous. But this remains hypothetical, and I’m fully aware when bereft of all counters you guys will be like:
“Prove it! Trolololololol.”
🙄
So allow me to preempt that response and provide concrete proof that Palpatine can kill a world.
Palpatine’s most destructive ability on record, as discussed, is the Force Storm technique.
Let’s just go over its capabilities again, it can:[list=1][*]Swallow entire fleets of capital ships.
[*]Tear away the surfaces of planets.
[*]Destroy a 17.5 km super star dreadnought, the largest ship in the Imperial fleet.
[*]Shatter the very fabric of space and time.
[*]Be dispatched and directed to targets light-years away.[/list=1]It’s been described as arguably the most destructive Force power in existence, and it surpasses the destructive power of the Vitiate’s ritual in several respects. On top of that Sidious may have been able to summon multiple of these Force storms at once. It is quite obvious that using the full extent of his powers, Sidious possesses immeasurable destructive might.
Now as Merchant has pointed out, Sidious has demonstrated the ability to destroy celestial bodies when he turned his Force storm against Da Soocha, but I just want to reinforce that as fact. First of all we have Luke Skywalker’s statement from the Jedi Path:
Source: Jedi Path: A Student’s Manual to the ForceIt’s been argued that this ability while written in reference to the Palpatine, cannot be used to explicitly apply this power to him. However if we place this in the actual contexts of Da Soocha, it becomes quite obvious Luke is indeed referring to the Emperor’s abilities, observe:The Reborn Emperor used this at Da Soocha. It has the power to kill worlds.
Source: Dark Empire Audio DramaIt is quite obvious that Sidious not only turned his Force storm against the Republic fleets, but the moon itself. Mothma describes it as "taking over the planet", suggesting planetary scope. Cross reference this with Luke’s claim that it “has the power to kill worlds” and it becomes clear that Palpatine planned to destroy Da Soocha and was fully capable of doing so.Luke: He's created another energy storm.
Leia: It’s descending on Pinnacle Base, consuming all the ships in its path. (Sound of comlink activating.) Mon Mothma, can you hear me?
Mon Mothma: Princess Leia. There’s an energy storm. It’s suddenly taken over the planet! We have twelve ships lost already. All our hands are being lost. We’re being wiped out!
Han: Leia, Leia! (Sound of comlink deactivating.)
Leia: You’re going to slaughter all those people.
Palpatine: Yes. Did I not warn you? I’ve played along with your Jedi dueling games long enough. Now, you will experience my full potency. I live as energy. I am the dark side!
I’d also note that Luke’s statement is written in the contexts of a sourcebook, not a novel or some other subjective narrative. It is obvious that the writers are merely being creative with the manner in which they are conveying information, but there intentions are nonetheless to inform with factual reference material, not dubious and questionable opinions. For those reasons, Luke Skywalker’s words can be interpreted as fact. Sidious could kill Da Soocha.
On top of that, Palpatine had been just defeated and weakened by Luke in a duel, and as the comic depicts, appears to conjure the Force storm with little exertion on his part, with ease. The implication or rather blatant fact being that this is not the full extent of his power.
Does it matter that Da Soocha is a mere moon? No. Habitable moons surrounding planetary bodies have been known to range in diameter from 5,000 km to over 10,000, and likewise planets themselves have been as small as 5,000 km and as large as 20,000. We know neither the size of Ziost nor the size of Da Soocha, and to speculate on that note is to do so baselessly.
The point being, that nowhere in the course of these events are we giving reason to believe Palpatine could not kill a planet with this celestial body destroying power. And the second point being, that Luke is clearly referring to Darth Sidious specifically, not the ability in general.
Which brings us back to Luke’s statement:
The Reborn Emperor used this at Da Soocha. It has the power to kill worlds.
It has the power to kill worlds.
to kill worlds
WORLDSDoes Luke say, it has the power to kill moons? Asteroids? Space debris? No. He says worlds.
Is a planet a world? Yes. Is Ziost a world? Yes. Would Palpatine’s Byss feat, performed to two thousand times the potency on Ziost, therefore be enough to kill the planet? Hell yes.
Conclusion: Palpatine > Life.
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Addendum:
Is this power exclusive to DE Sidious? Not really. I’ve already demonstrated Sidious can replicate Ziost based on ROTJ Palpatine’s accomplishments, and in terms of the Force Storm I’d remind you that again Palpatine was weakened, this was not the full extent of his power.
So ROTJ Sidious > Vitiate too.
Finally (yes its almost over), because Legend is probably going to raise this point again, I’ll shoot it down now.
Originally posted by S_W_LegendCute. But first let’s remind ourselves of the “assertion” in question:I see double-standards here. You want me to acknowledge the possibility of Darth Sidious having the ability to conjure up a Force Storm (Wormhole) large enough to ravage an entire planet, but did you give Emperor Vitiate same benefit of doubt vis-a-vis Revan's assertion about his potential to ravage an entire planet single-handedly? Nope.
So how does it feels to be on the receiving end now? huh?
Source: The Old Republic: RevanIt is quite obvious that Revan & co. are speculating on possibilities, not stating facts beyond what we don’t already know. And indeed it’s a possibility that Scourge brings into question.“He’s quarantined Dromund Kaas,” Meetra said, trying to lead them to the same conclusion. “What if he’s preparing to do the same thing here that he did on Nathema?”
Scourge hadn’t considered that possibility, and it chilled him to his core.
“Is that possible?” he asked. “Nyriss told me the ritual on Nathema took days, if not weeks. And the Emperor had to trick hundreds of other powerful Sith into working with him so he could draw on their power.”
“He’s stronger now,” Revan said. “But even if it’s possible, I don’t think he’ll go that far. At least not yet. He is too patient, too careful…”
There is nothing definitive or conclusive about this “assertion”, it is mere speculation and to be taken as such. Yet despite you in the past taking this to be gospel, you refuse to acknowledge a clear and definite statement made in the contexts of a sourcebook?
I’m afraid the only double standard being demonstrated here is your own.
Originally posted by carthage
Neph has logic?.. When has this development occurred?
There was a time, Cart.
I mean, at least he was once a formidable debater, and far more worth the time than LeGenD ever was. Now, as with LeGenD, all one has to do is turn his arguments against him.
Following their line of reasoning, Palpatine is without a doubt the most powerful being in Legends. I can accept that (lol).
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There was a time, Cart.I mean, at least he was once a formidable debater, and far more worth the time than LeGenD ever was. Now, as with LeGenD, all one has to do is turn his arguments against him.
Following their line of reasoning, Palpatine is without a doubt the most powerful being in Legends. I can accept that (lol).
Darth Caedus >> ROTS Darth Sidious tbh