Originally posted by ZenwolfHmm, guess it makes sense. Really other than time there is nothing that suggests ROTJ Sidious was much more powerful.
Not really, but before that it talks about how he made new social policies and that the Caamasi were wiped out shortly after the Clone Wars and he molded Thrawn into Grand Admiral.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
My argument is what I said it was, that it cannot be said with any level of certainty that a feat performed as a spirit can be replicated in physical form due to the intrinsic limitations of the physical form, and to claim as much is to speculate with no basis.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet by your own words, it is an inferior feat. And its true, though the Force storm possesses incredible destructive potential, it is not the same as the instant explosion of dark side energy we see at Ziost.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You're conveniently omitting a key factor here. That the Sith Emperor, unlike Sidious, spent a great deal of time gathering power by draining the living Force, Sidious was not in a position to do this, and we can't speculate on his abilities in the event that he was.
And Sidious siphoned life force of populace of Byss prior to events of DE.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
If you want an accurate comparison, look at their spirit feats at point of death i.e. prior to gathering living Force energy.1. Palpatine rends the fabric of time and space to possess an acolyte light years away.
2. The Sith Emperor falls into a babbling slumber and his essence has to be collected by his Hands, incapable of movement himself.
Palpatine > Sith Emperor.
1. Palpatine's essence reached Byss in the span of a year.
2. Vitiate's essence attempted to crush Hero of Tython and his allies beneath the rubble by collapsing a section of the Dark Temple where the confrontation occurred (demonstration of telekinetic abilities). Afterwards, Vitiate's essence reached out to one of his Hands and used him as a vessel to arrive on Yavin IV (demonstration of Essence Transfer technique). And the essence recovered on its own by feeding on the chaos and deaths in the developments on Yavin IV (demonstration of Force Drain powers).
Again, Vitiate - in essence form - retains the capability to manipulate the Force in much superior ways then essence of any other Force-user. My point stands.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You're merely reinforcing my point. If this Force ability is indeed "nothing" compared to the Ziost feat, then the possibility of him being able to perform in it physical form without extensive and complex ritual becomes a practical impossibility, considering the physical body can't even handle a supposedly far lesser feat without being totally destroyed.Great. What does this prove? This is not proof that the Sith Emperor overcame the physical limitations of his body, and it remains baseless speculation to assume he did.
Vitiate's story is still in progress, so you should not jump to conclusions yet.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maybe the Sith Emperor discovered a means to do so, but without concrete proof, you can't make this claim.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Logic hurts.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm afraid that's not the case, the Sith Emperor isn't just unleashing a wave of destructive energy here, otherwise the destruction of Ziost would be a purposeless gesture.He is draining the planet. That requires energy equatable to the no. of subjects drained. Just as it requires more energy to drain one person than two.
So no, you shouldn't perceive it as a tsunami of destructive energy slowly spreading across the planet, but the Emperor steadily draining the life force of the world bit by bit and he actively spreads his influence across Ziost.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless, its irrelevant. We are not discussing the technicalities of the Ziost feat here, we are discussing what Palpatine's Byss feat would look like if scaled down to Ziost. Irrespective of how he would go about it, Palpatine can still evidently replicate this feat.
In contrast, Palpatine spent years siphoning life energy of inhabitants of Byss and used this power to slow down his physical decay and acquire raw power to unleash Force Storm.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your assuming I'm attempting to prove it is superior to Vititate's feat. I'm not.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Explain how creating a wormhole with the Force is not a incredible display of power.
A Force power - which is tedious to perform - is going to stress the midi-chlorians of a physical body.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Hyperspace =/= Hyperspace routes.Hyperspace is merely an alternate dimension. And considering that Palpatine's Force storms lack a hyperdrive, he'd have to use raw power to rip a whole into this dimension and enter it, and likewise use raw power to transport the Force storm across this dimension.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your missing the point, it places the Force storm in a certain league of destructive ability, the immeasurable and nigh incomparable kind.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You're merely reinforcing my point. If this Force ability is indeed "nothing" compared to the Ziost feat, then the possibility of him being able to perform in it physical form without extensive and complex ritual becomes a practical impossibility, considering the physical body can't even handle a supposedly far lesser feat without being totally destroyed.
- back at you.
Now explain to me that why Force Storm can be unleashed with a physical body.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Da Soocha V. And thanks for the lore update, but your confused, the point is that Sidious had the power to destroy the moon. He didn't however because he was interrupted, hence the moon survived.
Therefore, Force Storm's destructive potential remains a point of contention.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes lol prove otherwise. Obviously Sidious did not intend to destroy the galactic capital, so he did not.Instead it's been confirmed that that was not the full extent of his power:
Not excuses my friend, facts.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'd already explained why it is not an interpretation, but a fact. And I've already demonstrated that it was evidently within his power.An appeal to ignorance will get you nowhere.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I wasn't aware that was in dispute.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You took them seriously, did you not?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
As a result of two key differences:1. There is no ambiguity to Luke's statement. He is not speculating, he is stating fact.
2. It is from an objective source, not a subjective narrative.
It is evidence, and on top of that evidence that has been verified.
2. Luke's remarks are his own.
Why is this a debate exactly?
Didn't his Force Storm kind of nom Sidious' largest and most powerful ship despite whatever shielding it may possess?
Even ISD have shields that are capable of protecting them from petatons in terms of joules per second.
IIRC, a ship like an Executor produces comparable energy output to the sun for its shields too
What do all these things have in common?
More than ****ing sufficient to raze a planet to some extreme or another
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123Good point, in fact the Executor's shields tanked three ISD's slamming into it from hyperspace:
Why is this a debate exactly?Didn't his Force Storm kind of nom Sidious' largest and most powerful ship despite whatever shielding it may possess?
Even ISD have shields that are capable of protecting them from petatons in terms of joules per second.
IIRC, a ship like an Executor produces comparable energy output to the sun for its shields too
What do all these things have in common?
More than ****ing sufficient to raze a planet to some extreme or another
An impact that, funnily enough, would be more than sufficient to fracture the core of a planet, and devastate it.
Account for the fact that the Eclipse's shields would likely be superior, and a therefore a small fleet of ISDs would be necessary to destroy it and yes, based on this Palpatine could probably blow up a planet with a Force storm.
Good point indeed.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The Complete Visual Guide states that he began populating Byss a shortly after he transformed the republic into the GE, indicating that he was already capable of planetary subjugation with his own power. Basically he infused Byss with such dark side power that once there the inhabitants succumbed to it, being both mentally enslaved and drained simultaneously. The New Essential Guide to Characters states that millions were being ferried at a time.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I may be getting the sources mixed up, but I'm more than certain The New Essential Guide to Characters is one source that indicates he was already capable of planetary subjugation shortly after the clone wars.I'll check later.
Very interesting. I always thought he didn't touch Byss until the last couple years of the Empire.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDExcellent we have our first concession. If you accept Palpatine's Force Storm feat as inferior to Vitiate's Ziost feat, then you accept it as insufficient proof that the Ziost feat can be performed instantly without destruction of the physical body.
Indeed.
Speculation.So you accept that to assume Vitiate can do this in physical form would be speculation?Vitiate's story is still in progress, so you should not jump to conclusions yet.
Surely assuming so is the very definition of jumping to conclusions?
Vitiate lost much of his power in a major setback that he suffered during the COLD WAR (i.e. disruption of ultimate ritual, loss of Voice, and loss of many Children). After these developments, Vitiate was left with one choice: start again.Sidious experienced a major set back too. He died. And with death, would have come a significant loss of power.And Sidious siphoned life force of populace of Byss prior to events of DE.
Sure.Factually incorrect, I don't know where you got the notion from.1. Palpatine's essence reached Byss in the span of a year.
Palpatine upon death, transported his essence across the galaxy to possess one of his servants almost instantly:
Source: Star Wars Gamer #5The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body. The infusion of Palpatine's overwhelming dark side energies reduced Droga to incoherent madness. Eventually, Palpatine's Grand Vizier Pestage was able to find Droga and tear the Emperor's essence from Droga's body.
2. Vitiate's essence attempted to crush Hero of Tython and his allies beneath the rubble by collapsing a section of the Dark Temple where the confrontation occurred (demonstration of telekinetic abilities). Afterwards, Vitiate's essence reached out to one of his Hands and used him as a vessel to arrive on Yavin IV (demonstration of Essence Transfer technique). And the essence recovered on its own by feeding on the chaos and deaths in the developments on Yavin IV (demonstration of Force Drain powers).On the extremely potent nexus that is the Dark Temple, which he was no doubt able to use as a source of strength. The same goes for Yavin 4.
And could I have proof of the second assertion? It's the first I have heard of it.
Again, Vitiate - in essence form - retains the capability to manipulate the Force in much superior ways then essence of any other Force-user. My point stands.Nexus amped TK, nexus amped Force drain and yet to be confirmed essence transfer is superior to rending the fabric of space and time (in the empty void of space where the living Force is scarce) and then performing essence transfer. How so?
It's both; the "wave of destructive energy" is the visible aspect of the power and Force Drain is the invisible aspect of the power.Good, I'm glad you could concede on that front.
Palpatine's Force Drain related demonstrations on Byss are insignificant in comparison to Vitiate's Force Drain related demonstrations on Ziost. Vitiate possessed all inhabitants of Ziost and fed on their life force and deaths to grow in power, and later on consumed all biota at a tremendous speed. Vitiate's Force Drain related demonstrations are most complex and impressive on record.And have I not already explained how if scaled down to Ziost, its easily as potent?In contrast, Palpatine spent years siphoning life energy of inhabitants of Byss and used this power to slow down his physical decay and acquire raw power to unleash Force Storm.
Da Soocha V was destroyed by the galaxy gun.Sadly you need converse proof to make it a point of contention, otherwise its just another appeal to ignorance on your front.Therefore, Force Storm's destructive potential remains a point of contention.
Let me help you. Darth Sidious could not destroy Da Soocha because [insert reasoning here]
Seriously as a possibility.So why do you refuse to accept the truth of Luke's statement as a possibility?
1. He is speculating. He have never tested his theory.Prove either and preferable both of these.2. Luke's remarks are his own.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Excellent we have our first concession. If you accept Palpatine's Force Storm feat as inferior to Vitiate's Ziost feat, then you accept it as insufficient proof that the Ziost feat can be performed instantly without destruction of the physical body.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So you accept that to assume Vitiate can do this in physical form would be speculation?
On Ziost, Vitiate created some beings of pure dark side energy.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Surely assuming so is the very definition of jumping to conclusions?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sidious experienced a major set back too. He died. And with death, would have come a significant loss of power.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Factually incorrect, I don't know where you got the notion from.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Palpatine upon death, transported his essence across the galaxy to possess one of his servants almost instantly:
He had spent over a year disembodied, formless, drifting through the maddening void of the Dark Side.
Taken from The Dark Empire Sourcebook
Originally posted by Beniboybling
On the extremely potent nexus that is the Dark Temple, which he was no doubt able to use as a source of strength. The same goes for Yavin 4.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And could I have proof of the second assertion? It's the first I have heard of it.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nexus amped TK, nexus amped Force drain and yet to be confirmed essence transfer is superior to rending the fabric of space and time (in the empty void of space where the living Force is scarce) and then performing essence transfer. How so?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Good, I'm glad you could concede on that front.
You were asserting that the power was Force Drain, I corrected you that it was much more complex then Force Drain.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And have I not already explained how if scaled down to Ziost, its easily as potent?
Powers do not change forms and/or fluctuate in intensity by virtue of scale. Siphon life force of single individual or millions, this Force Drain variant works the same way.
All living things are a part of and contribute to the Force; even those with no awareness of the Force are affected by and are a part of it. Many beings go through their daily lives wasting much of their life energy.
This power draws that life energy from beings, allowing a Jedi to use that energy to further his or her own ends.
Taken from The Dark Empire Sourcebook
More:
Drain Life Essence
Control Difficulty: Very Difficult, inversely modified by relationship. For example, using this power on a close relative would add +30 to the difficulty; using this power on complete strangers of other species would add nothing to the difficulty.
Sense Difficulty: Use the chart below:
Difficulty Number of Victims
Very Easy 1-5
Easy 6-50
Moderate 51-1,000
Difficult 1,001-50,000
Very Difficult 50,001-1 million
Heroic 1 million to 10 million
Alter Difficulty: Easy for willing, worshipful subjects. Difficult for ambivalent or apathetic individuals. Heroic for enemies. Add +10 to the difficulty if individuals are imbued with the Light Side of the Force.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sadly you need converse proof to make it a point of contention, otherwise its just another appeal to ignorance on your front.Let me help you. Darth Sidious could not destroy Da Soocha because [insert reasoning here]
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So why do you refuse to accept the truth of Luke's statement as a possibility?Prove either and preferable both of these.
That is Luke's statement in the book.
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Why is this a debate exactly?Didn't his Force Storm kind of nom Sidious' largest and most powerful ship despite whatever shielding it may possess?
Even ISD have shields that are capable of protecting them from petatons in terms of joules per second.
IIRC, a ship like an Executor produces comparable energy output to the sun for its shields too
What do all these things have in common?
More than ****ing sufficient to raze a planet to some extreme or another
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Good point, in fact the Executor's shields tanked three ISD's slamming into it from hyperspace:An impact that, funnily enough, would be more than sufficient to fracture the core of a planet, and devastate it.
Account for the fact that the Eclipse's shields would likely be superior, and a therefore a small fleet of ISDs would be necessary to destroy it and yes, based on this Palpatine could probably blow up a planet with a Force storm.
Good point indeed.
Originally posted by SunRazer
@Legend - LOL, stop making twisted interpretations of the text. It's not an isolated instance in the PRESENT tense, or in other words, it was happening in multiple systems simultaneously. She specifically uses present tense, which means she wasn't referring to different time periods, but instances at the same time as the Coruscant Storm.Unless, of course, you have proof of otherwise?
Their is no documented evidence of Palpatine conjuring multiple Force Storms simultaneously; conjuring a single Force Storm is an extremely demanding task and difficult to control. In short, Palpatine cannot control multiple Force Storms.
Originally posted by The Merchant
Actually destroying the Eclipse would be equivalent to causing planetary destruction. If you scale down the power of the Death Star to an aerage Star Destroyer the Star Destroyer would be generating 12 Petatons of TNT per second.
And even if a Super Star Destroyer is exploded like a bomb on a planet's surface, it won't destroy the planet. Their is not a single documented example of a Star Destroyer being used as a potential superweapon to tear a planet apart.
Death Star is equipped with 'hypermatter' reactor, possessing the energy output of several main-sequence stars. Only it can produce energy for offensive purpose that is sufficient to destroy an Earth like planet.
Energy required to destroy an Earth like planet is 2.25 x 10^32 Joules or 135 petatons.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You realize how massive and powerful Death Star was? A single starship doesn't packs as much power as you are suggesting. Stop posting nonsense.
You realize how hilariously above planet level your non sequitur is?
About a trillion times more powerful than anything I mentioned in my post
No hyperbole meant or implied fyi
The Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections and Dark Empire Sourcebook at the very least corroborate my post. Possibly more, but I'm more of a casual fan than anything, so I don't dig as deeply as some people.
Your beliefs?
Mean absolutely nothing
Welcome to debating, where nonsense is only the fallacies you cling to
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
You realize how hilariously above planet level your non sequitur is?About a trillion times more powerful than anything I mentioned in my post
No hyperbole meant or implied fyi
The Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections and Dark Empire Sourcebook at the very least corroborate my post. Possibly more, but I'm more of a casual fan than anything, so I don't dig as deeply as some people.
Your beliefs?
Mean absolutely nothing
Welcome to debating, where nonsense is only the fallacies you cling to
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Genius, check my response to member The Merchant right above your post. You 'are' posting unsubstantiated nonsense.
Do you actually read any of the source material?
Hell, let me link you a PDF
http://www.hungry-ewok.ru/sw/all_books.htm
Star Wars Incretible Cross-Sections Episode II: Attack of the Clones by Curtis Saxton
Hans Jensen, Richard Chasemore : Star Wars Complete Locations (p. 170-171)
^for cntrl f
Or is reading too much to expect from you when given a source to look up? :hmm
You do realize Star Destroyer's are equipped with a Hypermatter reactor right? And even if 1 percent of that power goes to the shields it still would be hundreds of Teratons of TNT. The asteroid that destroyed the Dinos was 100 teratons. In legends a Star Destroyer is powerful enough to have the same superlaser as the Death Star. Assuming its minimum is planet busting Earth sized planets that would mean its core is producing 669 Petatons of TNT. If 1 percent goes to it shields to destroy it you need Continent busting energies, which have planetary affects.
Also you're wrong on your math, to bust Earth you need 54 Quadrillion Megatons of TNT or 54,000,000 Petatons of TNT.