Originally posted by Lord Stark
I mean ROTS Sidious is the weakest that can defeat Vitiate. Vitiate would likely defeat TPM Sidious.
Only Sidious (DE) stands a chance at defeating Vitiate's physical form. Lesser incarnations will flop.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
On par with Hero of Tython, a Jedi Master who have blitzed competent Sith.Furthermore, Vitiate defeated Revan in few seconds. In this short span, Vitiate was able to perform multiple actions.
Only with a lightsaber, but he have to get close first which is unlikely.
And Vitiate can defeat any incarnation of Palpatine with his Force abilities.
Keep on dreaming. It makes you sleep easier perhaps.
The hero of tython and Revan are no where near sidious' power in the force. By the time of ROTS Sidious is stated as the most powerful Sith of all time and any incarnation after was only more powerful. Palpatine in ROTS can definitely beat vitiate. Vitiate has no single feats that can allow him to go toe toe with Sidious. Draining a planet with the help of hundreds of Sith and weeks of preparation is not a good feat as DE palpatine can do it by himself. Vitiate was beaten by the Hero Typhon. She is no where near Sidious level of power. Vitiate like Darth maul and Exar Kun and Darth Malgus are all overrated.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
The hero of tython and Revan are no where near sidious' power in the force.
These individuals have never interacted with each other and accurate comparison is not possible.
Both Hero of Tython (HoT) and Revan have very impressive combat record.
Revan, in particular, have incredible hype:
"Each [Revan and the Foundry] could dominate worlds...The Emperor sought to pry the Foundry's location from the Jedi's mind. But for centuries he resisted." ¯ Darth Malgus
- and have history of holding his own against some of the most potent Strike Teams ever assembled.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
By the time of ROTS Sidious is stated as the most powerful Sith of all time and any incarnation after was only more powerful.
In fact, Vitiate is promoted as the most powerful Force-user ever in a source which acknowledges the existence of Celestials (i.e. The Ones).
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Palpatine in ROTS can definitely beat vitiate. Vitiate has no single feats that can allow him to go toe toe with Sidious.
Check this profile to understand how powerful and accomplished Vitiate is: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/emperor-vitiate-respect-thread/97466/
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Draining a planet with the help of hundreds of Sith and weeks of preparation is not a good feat as DE palpatine can do it by himself.
Nathema ritual event occurred in 4999 BBY. Since then, Vitiate have vastly grown in power by virtue of feeding on the life force of many beings. Around 3640 BBY, Vitiate have become so powerful that he single-handedly ravaged an entire planet, destroying its entire biota and environment:
This is the greatest display of (offensive) power and Force ability on record yet. Better then even Abeloth's offensive showings.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Vitiate was beaten by the Hero Typhon.
While HoT was likely an incredibly powerful Force-user himself (a champion of light), it was not possible for him to undermine Emperor Vitiate either without assistance from Scourge and other allies.
It would be several decades, maybe longer, before the Emperor Vitiate revisited the idea of invading the Republic. In that time, much could happen.
Revan had spoken of another champion who would rise; Scourge had seen that champion in his final vision. Blessed with eternal life, Scourge would serve faithfully at the Emperor's side, biding his time as he waited for that champion to emerge from the mists of time. While serving, he would study the Emperor. He would learn everything about him. He would come to understand his strengths and weaknesses so that when the time came, he could help Revan's prophesied champion destroy the Emperor once and for all.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Lord Scourge learned a great deal about Emperor Vitiate while serving him as Emperor's Wrath for about 3 centuries. He eventually found out that Emperor Vitiate would orchestrate his next phase of power progression (grand plan hinted above) after starting a war with the Republic and the Jedi Order; while Emperor's Sith Empire would be preoccupied with the war, Emperor would use this situation to his advantage by commencing a ritual of such a scope that it would consume the entire galaxy at its conclusion and make him unbelievably powerful (omnipotent). It would be during this time that Lord Scourge would find the necessary opening to undermine Emperor Vitiate because the latter would have invested much of his powers in this ritual to ensure its success and he would be vulnerable in combat during this situation. And indeed this is how the events unfolded.
Emperor Vitiate eventually orchestrated his grand plan during the Great Galactic War after learning about a plot of the Jedi Order to stop him. Lord Scourge betrayed Emperor Vitiate at this moment and facilitated the Jedi Order's attempts to undermine him (Emperor). The most promising agent of the Jedi Order was HoT; Emperor Vitiate had easily defeated even him in a fair confrontation, turning him into a puppet of his will. After a long time, Jedi Masters Orgus Din's spirit assisted HoT to break away from Emperor's telepathic influence.
When Master Orgus Din, an old ally reached out through the Force, the Knight is able to break the Emperor's mental domination.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
With this newfound power, HoT was better prepared to resist Emperor's telepathic subjugation much like Revan before him. Soon after, Lord Scourge joined HoT to undermine Emperor's efforts to consume the entire galaxy, temporarily weakening Emperor Vitiate in the process by interrupting his most ambitious ritual, and lured HoT and his allies towards (another) confrontation with a vulnerable (temporarily weakened) Emperor in which the latter suffered a major setback and his grand plan failed.
Here;
You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic
As hinted earlier, under fair circumstances, defeating Emperor Vitiate was most likely not possible as apparent from this confrontation:
With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi do not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of the Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
+
The plan to invade the Emperor's fortress succeeds beyond Master Braga's greatest ambitions. However, the Jedi find more than they bargained for when they finally confront the Sith leader in his lair. The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Four of some of the Order's most powerful Jedi (as a team) miserably failed against the Emperor when he wasn't vulnerable. Now what could one Jedi do?
Yes, some of the Emperor's powers are not infallible such as his telepathic abilities but it is not easy to develop a countermeasure against his telepathic powers. The select few who managed to do so (e.g. Revan and HoT) had ended up broken from exposure to Emperor's oppressive telepathic domination and were NOT ABLE TO break free without external aid (Revan from Jedi High Council's mindwipe and Hero of Tython from aid of Orgus Din's spirit). HoT had certainly improved by the time of his second confrontation with Emperor Vitiate (developed the capability to cope with and/or counter the effect of powerful dark side influences including vulnerability to Emperor's telepathic abilities like Revan before him with great power) but this still may not have been enough to undermine Emperor Vitiate in a "fair scenario" as apparent from his extraordinary powers on the whole (details above) and lesson learned from Revan's second confrontation with him which also ended in a failure.
Now, Emperor Vitiate was indeed in the phase of recovering his strength at the time of his second confrontation with HoT and his allies but he was still noticeably away from his original strength. In addition, Emperor Vitiate decided to utilize his illusion talent to confuse his opponents during this second confrontation which is another indication of his "temporary vulnerability" during this time, since he had never resorted to using doppelgangers in combat situations before.
In the nutshell, Emperor's defeat is a plot-device related development.
Clear now?
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
She is no where near Sidious level of power. Vitiate like Darth maul and Exar Kun and Darth Malgus are all overrated.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He can't defeatSidious
Yoda
Dooku
Vader
Caedus
The Ones
Mother Talzin
Etc.
"Much to learn you still have"
[QUOTE=15196453]Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Speculation.
These individuals have never interacted with each other and accurate comparison is not possible.
Both Hero of Tython (HoT) and Revan have very impressive combat record.
Revan, in particular, have incredible hype:
"Each [Revan and the Foundry] could dominate worlds...The Emperor sought to pry the Foundry's location from the Jedi's mind. But for centuries he resisted." ¯ Darth Malgus
- and have history of holding his own against some of the most potent Strike Teams ever assembled.
This promotion is a matter of the past, when much of the lore was still in its infancy. Ever since super-strong characters such as Vitiate, The Ones, and Abeloth have been introduced to the mythos, Sidious is no longer promoted as the most powerful Sith and/or practitioner of the Dark Side.
In fact, Vitiate is promoted as the most powerful Force-user ever in a source which acknowledges the existence of Celestials (i.e. The Ones).
Nonsense.
Check this profile to understand how powerful and accomplished Vitiate is: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/emperor-vitiate-respect-thread/97466/
You are clueless or stuck in the past.
Nathema ritual event occurred in 4999 BBY. Since then, Vitiate have vastly grown in power by virtue of feeding on the life force of many beings. Around 3640 BBY, Vitiate have become so powerful that he single-handedly ravaged an entire planet, destroying its entire biota and environment:
This is the greatest display of (offensive) power and Force ability on record yet. Better then even Abeloth's offensive showings.
You haven't played SWTOR, it seems. Below is a detailed explanation of developments within SWTOR concerning this matter.
While HoT was likely an incredibly powerful Force-user himself (a champion of light), it was not possible for him to undermine Emperor Vitiate either without assistance from Scourge and other allies.
It would be several decades, maybe longer, before the Emperor Vitiate revisited the idea of invading the Republic. In that time, much could happen.
Revan had spoken of another champion who would rise; Scourge had seen that champion in his final vision. Blessed with eternal life, Scourge would serve faithfully at the Emperor's side, biding his time as he waited for that champion to emerge from the mists of time. While serving, he would study the Emperor. He would learn everything about him. He would come to understand his strengths and weaknesses so that when the time came, he could help Revan's prophesied champion destroy the Emperor once and for all.
Taken from [B]Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Lord Scourge learned a great deal about Emperor Vitiate while serving him as Emperor's Wrath for about 3 centuries. He eventually found out that Emperor Vitiate would orchestrate his next phase of power progression (grand plan hinted above) after starting a war with the Republic and the Jedi Order; while Emperor's Sith Empire would be preoccupied with the war, Emperor would use this situation to his advantage by commencing a ritual of such a scope that it would consume the entire galaxy at its conclusion and make him unbelievably powerful (omnipotent). It would be during this time that Lord Scourge would find the necessary opening to undermine Emperor Vitiate because the latter would have invested much of his powers in this ritual to ensure its success and he would be vulnerable in combat during this situation. And indeed this is how the events unfolded.
Emperor Vitiate eventually orchestrated his grand plan during the Great Galactic War after learning about a plot of the Jedi Order to stop him. Lord Scourge betrayed Emperor Vitiate at this moment and facilitated the Jedi Order's attempts to undermine him (Emperor). The most promising agent of the Jedi Order was HoT; Emperor Vitiate had easily defeated even him in a fair confrontation, turning him into a puppet of his will. After a long time, Jedi Masters Orgus Din's spirit assisted HoT to break away from Emperor's telepathic influence.
When Master Orgus Din, an old ally reached out through the Force, the Knight is able to break the Emperor's mental domination.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
With this newfound power, HoT was better prepared to resist Emperor's telepathic subjugation much like Revan before him. Soon after, Lord Scourge joined HoT to undermine Emperor's efforts to consume the entire galaxy, temporarily weakening Emperor Vitiate in the process by interrupting his most ambitious ritual, and lured HoT and his allies towards (another) confrontation with a vulnerable (temporarily weakened) Emperor in which the latter suffered a major setback and his grand plan failed.
Here;
You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic
As hinted earlier, under fair circumstances, defeating Emperor Vitiate was most likely not possible as apparent from this confrontation:
With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi do not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of the Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
+
The plan to invade the Emperor's fortress succeeds beyond Master Braga's greatest ambitions. However, the Jedi find more than they bargained for when they finally confront the Sith leader in his lair. The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Four of some of the Order's most powerful Jedi (as a team) miserably failed against the Emperor when he wasn't vulnerable. Now what could one Jedi do?
Yes, some of the Emperor's powers are not infallible such as his telepathic abilities but it is not easy to develop a countermeasure against his telepathic powers. The select few who managed to do so (e.g. Revan and HoT) had ended up broken from exposure to Emperor's oppressive telepathic domination and were NOT ABLE TO break free without external aid (Revan from Jedi High Council's mindwipe and Hero of Tython from aid of Orgus Din's spirit). HoT had certainly improved by the time of his second confrontation with Emperor Vitiate (developed the capability to cope with and/or counter the effect of powerful dark side influences including vulnerability to Emperor's telepathic abilities like Revan before him with great power) but this still may not have been enough to undermine Emperor Vitiate in a "fair scenario" as apparent from his extraordinary powers on the whole (details above) and lesson learned from Revan's second confrontation with him which also ended in a failure.
Now, Emperor Vitiate was indeed in the phase of recovering his strength at the time of his second confrontation with HoT and his allies but he was still noticeably away from his original strength. In addition, Emperor Vitiate decided to utilize his illusion
1. The hero of Typhon and Revan have feats that can match Sidious? What are they. I'm going to be honest with you I hate Revan, and dislike vitiate. However this is fact, those two are not ranked as high up as Sidious if you can prove they are I doubt you can.
2. They maybe impressive but Sidious is still factually better. Anyone who places Vitiate above Sidious is mistaken as Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. Vitiate is considered the most powerful Sith of his time. While I don't just say he has nothing to his name, he is not on the level of the masters of the true cannon and NJO skywalkers.
3. Do those strike teams have anything against Caedus Sidious Luke The Ones, dooku even Windu or yoda.
4. Nonsense, Sidious is and always will be the most powerful sith holed of all time. Vitiate being the most powerful force weilder is also nonsense as that title is held by Luke Skywalker as stated by George Lucas and by feats Luke is greater. Jacen Solo, Sidious, Yoda, Dooku, Even vader would have greater power in the force.
5. So now you ignore how palpatine can accomplish what it took vitiate weeks of preparation and other Sith to accomplish. Shameful. Just understand one thing. The Son is not a Sith in a manner of speaking as he says he is a Sith but he isn't a Sith. As the the Son is dead he is a thing of the past and so are the ones so Sidious still stands as the most powerful dark sider. Vitiate can't compare to Sidious.
6. All I have to say to rest of that is no I haven't played SWTOR. However I do know that vitiate can't compete with Sidious. I know for a fact that in terms of the force Satele Revan the Hero of Typhon any Jedi master of that time can't compete with Sidious in terms of the force. He is the most powerful Sith/practioner of all time. Vitiate is a thing of the past while Sidious is the new and better version. Sidious has a thousand years of Sith learning. Everything From Darth Bane to Darth Plaguis Sidious knows, that includes what vitiate did as bane and o doubt Zannah researched ancient Sith to learn of arcane powers ( Zannah with Sith sorcery ) that would lead to palpatine knowing a good deal of Sith Magic, but preffering the more agrees ice TK side of it with force lightning.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1. The hero of Typhon and Revan have feats that can match Sidious? What are they. I'm going to be honest with you I hate Revan, and dislike vitiate. However this is fact, those two are not ranked as high up as Sidious if you can prove they are I doubt you can.
Revan stomped a Dark Council member who had defeated Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge earlier, cut a swath through defenses of Star Forge and outdueled Darth Malak, tolerate tortures in captivity for centuries, cheated death, and held his own against arguably the most formidable Strike Team ever assembled in a battle on Yavin IV.
Both HoT and Revan have showings that only a Jedi of Yoda's caliber is expected to perform.
Darth Sidious is likely stronger but HoT and Revan can prove to be a decent challenge for him.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
2. They maybe impressive but Sidious is still factually better. Anyone who places Vitiate above Sidious is mistaken as Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. Vitiate is considered the most powerful Sith of his time. While I don't just say he has nothing to his name, he is not on the level of the masters of the true cannon and NJO skywalkers.
Characters are often promoted as being the most powerful, until newer content arrives that may invalidate their promotions. A lore which expands non-stop, consistency in promotion becomes important.
Vitiate combat showings include defeating an entire Dark Council (12 of the most powerful Sith Lords in the galaxy), and some of the greatest warriors of the Jedi Order including HoT and Revan. Other feats include surviving and controlling the outcome of the most dangerous ritual ever attempted (on planet Medriaas), becoming immortal, creating a nexus of the dark side, corrupting the environment of an entire planet Dromund Kaas, influencing hundreds of Force-users on galactic scale (i.e. Children), effectively concealing the identity of Children from the Jedi Order for centuries (via First Son), possessing individuals on planetary-scale (on planet Ziost), feeding on the life force of individuals and their deaths on planetary-scale (on Ziost), and killing an entire planet (i.e. Ziost). These are easily among the best demonstrations of Force ability in the mythos.
I am sorry but Masters of Canon and NJO era characters hold no candle to Vitiate. Only Sidious competes in showings.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
3. Do those strike teams have anything against Caedus Sidious Luke The Ones, dooku even Windu or yoda.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
4. Nonsense, Sidious is and always will be the most powerful sith holed of all time. Vitiate being the most powerful force weilder is also nonsense as that title is held by Luke Skywalker as stated by George Lucas and by feats Luke is greater. Jacen Solo, Sidious, Yoda, Dooku, Even vader would have greater power in the force.
This is how Luke is promoted in Legends continuity content:
Even Luke's strength in the Force cannot help. The most powerful Jedi Master in the galaxy can only stand by and watch his wife die.
Taken from Star Wars: The New Jedi Order Sourcebook
"Luke Skywalker is still the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. I think we should assume he has a plan," Jaina said..
Taken from Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Vortex
And Disney have revised hype of Anakin Skywalker:
Discovered as a slave on Tatooine by Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker had the potential to become one of the most powerful Jedi ever, and was believed by some to be the prophesied Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force.
Taken from Star Wars: Official Databank
Vitiate have better feats then Luke Skywalker.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
5. So now you ignore how palpatine can accomplish what it took vitiate weeks of preparation and other Sith to accomplish. Shameful. Just understand one thing. The Son is not a Sith in a manner of speaking as he says he is a Sith but he isn't a Sith. As the the Son is dead he is a thing of the past and so are the ones so Sidious still stands as the most powerful dark sider. Vitiate can't compare to Sidious.
This is what happens when you don't play SWTOR. You are absolutely clueless about Vitiate related developments and his latest showings.
Vitiate have superior showings then Sidious.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
6. All I have to say to rest of that is no I haven't played SWTOR. However I do know that vitiate can't compete with Sidious. I know for a fact that in terms of the force Satele Revan the Hero of Typhon any Jedi master of that time can't compete with Sidious in terms of the force. He is the most powerful Sith/practioner of all time. Vitiate is a thing of the past while Sidious is the new and better version. Sidious has a thousand years of Sith learning. Everything From Darth Bane to Darth Plaguis Sidious knows, that includes what vitiate did as bane and o doubt Zannah researched ancient Sith to learn of arcane powers ( Zannah with Sith sorcery ) that would lead to palpatine knowing a good deal of Sith Magic, but preffering the more agrees ice TK side of it with force lightning.
Vitiate > Sidious by virtue of available evidence.
Sidious has a thousand years of Sith learning? Sidious did not live for thousand years. He had acquired lot of knowledge, but Vitiate still had advantage. Vitiate have lived for over a millennium and explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the Dark Side.
In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Vitiate is also stated to be the living embodiment of the Dark Side and almost godlike being.
Also, you know about Darth Gravid, a Bannite Sith? If not, then do some reading on him.