Originally posted by SunRazerNobody has a defined upper limit, but what we do have from her isn't as good as Nihl's showings. Leia's good but hardly overwhelming. I'd be hard pressed to say she's better than Talon.
Well, if she really is substantially superior to Leia, I don't see why not, to be honest.She's kind of somebody who has no defined upper limit, essentially, so it's not like it's impossible for her to perform that feat.
Originally posted by ILS
Nobody has a defined upper limit, but what we do have from her isn't as good as Nihl's showings. Leia's good but hardly overwhelming. I'd be hard pressed to say she's better than Talon.
Actually, they do. For instance, Nihl has lost to Cade. That's his limit. Saba has no such losses to define her limitations, so it's not implausible to suggest that she can match or even slightly exceed Nihl in skill.
It's the fact that Saba's meant to considerably, if not vastly, superior to Leia.
And in the end no character has an upper limit because the one's at the very top don't. You can continually up characters like Nihl and Cade and in turn they up Krayt.
Leia doesn't have more going for her than Talon. She's a relatively equal match for Alema Rar and has some other decent wins on her record. Talon similarly has wins like curbstomping a high-ranking Imperial Knight, holding an edge over Wolf and Shado at the same time, managing to hold her own against Shado and Antares at the same time, and at times being able to give Cade a good fight when he isn't quite at his best. Talon's also accoladed with being one of the most skilled duelists in Krayt's empire, and by virtue of her rank, should be above the likes of Antares Draco, who has feats like killing scores of Sith Troopers and stomping five Sith single handedly. Antares is a great fighter, Talon's proven herself better than him, and Nihl had a solid fight with an iteration of Cade who stomped Talon. Even if we submit that Leia is as good as Talon, the disparity between her and Saba isn't such that Saba can last against someone who would oneshot Leia.
Originally posted by ILS
And in the end no character has an upper limit because the one's at the very top don't. You can continually up characters like Nihl and Cade and in turn they up Krayt.Leia doesn't have more going for her than Talon. She's a relatively equal match for Alema Rar and has some other decent wins on her record. Talon similarly has wins like curbstomping a high-ranking Imperial Knight, holding an edge over Wolf and Shado at the same time, managing to hold her own against Shado and Antares at the same time, and at times being able to give Cade a good fight when he isn't quite at his best. Talon's also accoladed with being one of the most skilled duelists in Krayt's empire, and by virtue of her rank, should be above the likes of Antares Draco, who has feats like killing scores of Sith Troopers and stomping five Sith single handedly. Antares is a great fighter, Talon's proven herself better than him, and Nihl had a solid fight with an iteration of Cade who stomped Talon. Even if we submit that Leia is as good as Talon, the disparity between her and Saba isn't such that Saba can last against someone who would oneshot Leia.
1. There's a logic factor, though - you can't just go on to a no-limits fallacy. I wouldn't ever claim Saba could beat Luke, for instance. And besides, Sidious is canonically more powerful than Krayt, and so on - when you get to the top there's a hierarchy of beings, some being confirmed to be superior to others. The guys at the top also have limits and/or losses.
2. Well, Leia's natural potential in of itself is tremendous - it's her late training which hinders her. That being said, her natural potential should suggest that she's still quite talented a swordsman. As to where she actually is, it's kind of hard to tell. The circumstances under which she beat Beldorion are highly impressive, but he was out of practice (seemingly) and she had the mobility edge, obviously. She did beat a highly skilful Lost Tribe member quite decisively in Conviction, and she had the obvious edge over Tahiri Veila. Leia has also technically beaten Alema before, and I doubt I'd put Talon above Alema.
Cade wouldn't one-shot Leia, though. She might be roughly around Talon in sheer skill, but she has physical/power edges over her. Caedus regarded Saba as somebody who could give him difficulty in a fight, whereas he believed he could beat Leia easily. That's a pretty big difference, in my opinion - larger than the gap between Nihl and Talon.
Originally posted by SunRazer1. And like you can't claim Saba is better than Luke, you can't claim the same about Nihl without proof. I get that she isn't the most explored character but it's not really an excuse.
1. There's a logic factor, though - you can't just go on to a no-limits fallacy. I wouldn't ever claim Saba could beat Luke, for instance. And besides, Sidious is canonically more powerful than Krayt, and so on - when you get to the top there's a hierarchy of beings, some being confirmed to be superior to others.2. Well, Leia's natural potential in of itself is tremendous - it's her late training which hinders her. That being said, her natural potential should suggest that she's still quite talented a swordsman. As to where she actually is, it's kind of hard to tell. The circumstances under which she beat Beldorion are highly impressive, but he was out of practice (seemingly) and she had the mobility edge, obviously. She did beat a highly skilful Lost Tribe member quite decisively in Conviction, and she had the obvious edge over Tahiri Veila. Leia has also technically beaten Alema before, and I doubt I'd put Talon above Alema.
Cade wouldn't one-shot Leia, though. She might be roughly around Talon in sheer skill, but she has physical/power edges over her. Caedus regarded Saba as somebody who could give him difficulty in a fight, whereas he believed he could beat Leia easily. That's a pretty big difference, in my opinion - larger than the gap between Nihl and Talon.
2. What has Alema got going for her that supersedes the feats I listed for Talon?
3. Physical and power edges are irrelevant, and if you're talking about speed I fail to see how she's faster than Talon. If I can prove Talon is at least equal to Leia in swordsmanship then there's no reason Cade couldn't in that scenario.
You're stretching the term "difficulty" into "difficult fight" - Palpatine had "difficulty" with Fisto but that doesn't mean it was much of a fight. There's only so much you can do with the word difficult. And the difference between the version of Talon who Cade stomped and Nihl is very large, because Cade actually had no problem with Talon whereas he had his hands full with Nihl, and basically overpowered him.
1. That accolade in of itself suggests it, to be honest. And her superiority over a Force Rage-amped Kenth Hamner, sometimes with disadvantages, might also suggest this. Kenth is generally mocked for some reason, but along with other Jedi, he did cut down hordes of Vong on what appeared to be his first fight against them.
2. I didn't say she supersedes her, but she probably at least rivals Talon. I mean, she seemed to be significantly ahead of a Yuuzhan Vong commander/elite Vong warrior.
3. How's Talon equal to her in speed? Force Speed has physical relations but also has relations to Force strength, an area in which Leia undoubtedly exceeds Talon, and if her innate strength is anything to go by, she's much more powerful than Talon.
4. What source claims Sidious had difficulty with Kit? And Mace helped Kit. On the other hand, I highly doubt that Caedus regarding Saba with enough skill to make it difficult for him to beat her means that he would strike her down as Palpatine did Fisto. That wasn't any difficulty, tbh.
Talon did last against Nihl, though. And in your respect thread you promoted it as a "fairly extensive fight with the inclusion of off-panel bits".
I'm not seeing how Saba is superior to Kenth, based on his respect thread. The fight was even until it ended with his lightsaber in her stomach. Then again the fight is presented in sections that might not be complete so I don't know how exactly it went for either of them.
Alema caught the Commander by surprise. Other than that all she seems to have is fighting Leia, whereas all of Talon's opponents have well documented skill showings.
If we go by the "Force power = greater speed argument" then I'll undoubtedly find some way to make it bite you in the ass in a later debate, lol. That aside it's just not always the case. Weaker Force users can be equally fast to their superiors, it's been seen plenty of times. And Talon's ability to combat two highly skilled fighters at the same time and wreck an Imperial Knight in seconds is why she should at least be equal to Leia.
Er, the fact that he did have visible difficulty? I mean you can stomp someone and still put a lot of effort into doing so, which is how I imagine Caedus would deal with Saba.
She evidently improved after recovering from the Claws of the Dragon duel, since she fought a serious Cade and did better than get stomped by him later on. I'd attribute it to the fact Krayt forced her to recover from her stab wound through healing meditation alone instead of proper medical treatment, which is the kind of ordeal that improve one's connection to the Force. However, it wasn't that Talon which Cade stomped, which is the point.
1. He was enraged and Saba was holding back. There was a point when she might have stopped holding back, but the text states she fought at a positional disadvantage shortly after.
The text outright mentions her superiority to him on even ground anyway.
2. She was clearly far above his second-in-command, too.
3. How the heck was he challenged by somebody that he killed in three chops, even with Windu's aid?
4. Okay, lol.
Originally posted by ILS
and by virtue of her rank, should be above the likes of Antares Draco, who has feats like killing scores of Sith Troopers and stomping five Sith single handedly. Antares is a great fighter, Talon's proven herself better than him,
Speaking of rank, he is the leader of the Imperial Knights. I don't think I'd put him below Talon. While they've met, they haven't exactly directly clashed too.
Him being the leader of the Imperial Knights doesn't put him above or on par with Talon.
Him being an even fight for someone Krayt considers to be a less effective fighter than Talon (Havok), puts him below her, actually. Which is further supported by the fact Roan Fel had a very close fight with Darth Kruhl, who is also below Talon, and yet he was only an even match for Antares.
And Talon did meet him directly. They had a fairly long fight off-panel with Shado supporting Antares.