Saba Sebatyne vs. Darth Nihl

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. He was enraged and Saba was holding back. There was a point when she might have stopped holding back, but the text states she fought at a positional disadvantage shortly after.

The text outright mentions her superiority to him on even ground anyway.

2. She was clearly far above his second-in-command, too.

3. How the heck was he challenged by somebody that he killed in three chops, even with Windu's aid?

4. Okay, lol.

2. I'd still place Talon's feats against the duos and her contending with Cade above killing a second-in-command Vong. She should be superior to both Leia and Alema. Which I think only makes sense; Talon is just shy of the best of the Legacy era by a few tiers, Leia and Saba aren't the same in their era.

3. Not challenged. He killed him with difficulty. I'm trying to give you some perspective on what Caedus meant by that. I'm not sure how far you're trying to stretch the quote but it doesn't elevate her above someone like Nihl.

Originally posted by ILS

Him being an even fight for someone Krayt considers to be a less effective fighter than Talon (Havok), puts him below her, actually.

I think Draco's stronger than Havok- Their first fight, Draco won, and the second, Havok won, but Draco had *just* come from leaving a pile of sith corpses, softening him up, while Havok was completely fresh.

Cool fight

In their first fight it was prior to Havok's Sith training, and even then he threw the fight and faked his death to escape the Empire's attentions. 😬

Havok>Draco.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
In their first fight it was prior to Havok's Sith training, and even then he threw the fight and faked his death to escape the Empire's attentions. 😬

Havok>Draco.

Sure, Havok didn't really die, but it wasn't said that he faked his death purposefully. And yea, he's probably stronger as a sith, but Draco'd have trained too.

He only fought Draco Sith-to-IK leader when he had the edge of being fresher.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, Havok didn't really die, but it wasn't said that he faked his death purposefully.

Sure, it's not outright stated, but it seems obvious to me.

He's probably stronger as a sith, but Draco'd have trained too.

I agree, Draco's improved since then too. Then again, I'd value the powers the Sith gave Havok as a more relevant improvement tbh.

He only fought Draco Sith-to-IK leader when he had the edge of being fresher.

I think that's an excuse, tbh. Can be said about a lot of fights.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sure, it's not outright stated, but it seems obvious to me.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sure, it's not outright stated, but it seems obvious to me.

It seems too risky to me. I mean, fighting Draco means Draco really would be trying to kill him.

I think that's an excuse, tbh. Can be said about a lot of fights.

It can be said, but it still definitely matters. I mean, we're not talking about 'cut down one or two, plus some random soldiers' like often happens, he faced a whole dogpile with Havok waiting til he was done to challenge him.

"Send a group of moderate foes, then jump in personally," is a classic tactic.

I didn't say his fight with Draco was necessarily planned (nor necessarily an accident), but Eshkar Niin intentionally faked his death and escaped the Empire's radar--that's confirmed. That line of thought makes me think he decided to throw the fight to that end tbh.

Where was it confirmed that Antares didn't defeat him in their first fight? From what I can tell he didn't "fake" his death as much as he ran with the idea of it so he wouldn't be hunted down again.

This is just like the Sidious vs Windu argument tbh. Havoc said he faked his death, once I get home Ill see if I can grab you a quote.

Are you talking about him trying to break Antares while torturing him with an illusion? Because if so he was lying during that. He projected an illusion of himself killing Sia's mother in front of Draco and tried to convince him that he failed to protect her and that he faked his death, when really Antares was sent after him in the first place because he killed Sia's mother. Antares wasn't there to see it, he just hunted Eshkar down. We get no real description or depiction of the fight other than that Eshkar was presumed dead. Pretty much seems like he just lost.

It's quite different from Sidious vs Windu. And nobody even buys Sidious faking his loss either way lol.

What makes you think Draco wasn't present?

I wouldn't say it's impossible that he was present, just dubious, since he was only "present" in Havok's vision. All we do know is that Eshkar abandoned his vows as an Imperial Knight and Draco hunted him down and defeated him.

Originally posted by ILS
Okay, so she's better than Kenth Hamner. Hamner's feats extend to killing a few Vong, right? Forgive me if I'm missing out any details but that kind of feat isn't exactly considered too high in the Legacy hierarchy, and he was still a good fight for Saba. So, I'm not too impressed by her as far as this thread is concerned.

2. I'd still place Talon's feats against the duos and her contending with Cade above killing a second-in-command Vong. She should be superior to both Leia and Alema. Which I think only makes sense; Talon is just shy of the best of the Legacy era by a few tiers, Leia and Saba aren't the same in their era.

3. Not challenged. He killed him with difficulty. I'm trying to give you some perspective on what Caedus meant by that. I'm not sure how far you're trying to stretch the quote but it doesn't elevate her above someone like Nihl.

1. An enraged Kenth Hamner, and whilst holding back. Killing numerous Vong on his first encounter with them is a very impressive fight - and on par with Talon's showings. You do, of course, realize that losing some of your most fundamental assets in a duel (precognition, clairvoyance, etc.) is a major detriment to your overall fighting ability? Kenth having never fought Vong before and still cutting them down, presumably by the dozens over the course of the battle, is a pretty damn good feat.

2. The difference is that the best of Leia's era is well above anybody else in Talon's era, so that comparison isn't valid.

3. It's not difficulty at all. The dictionary's definition of "difficulty" is if something requires great effort or struggle to perform, or if it wasn't done easily. Palpatine did easily cut Kit down without struggle, even with Mace parrying a blow.

And the dictionary's definition of "struggle" is to make a great physical effort.

1. Quote for Kenth killing them "by the dozens"?

2. Maybe in your mind lol. Luke, Caedus and Krayt aside everyone is pretty similar. Leia and Alema aren't on-par with Talon, sorry.

3. Again, you're missing the point. Palpatine did stomp him but he didn't do it nonchalantly. Just looking at him is enough to realize this. Result =/= Effort.

1. I said it's presumable. The Vong were pushed back, and they suffered immense casualties. Of course it wasn't all due to Kenth, but I think that's presumable, as I said.

2. "The very best" entails Luke and Krayt, respectively. Luke is easily above Krayt.

3. That doesn't entail "difficulty". Numerous sources claim Palpatine easily slaughtered Kit, and nothing at all suggests that it was "difficult", save for your arbitrary interpretation of events which isn't supported by any source.

And it wasn't nonchalant because Mace helped Kit. He only parried two blows before being exposed to one of Palpatine's strikes. Mace fended off that blow, giving Kit time to spin around and block one more of Sidious's strikes before getting bisected.

1. That's not really good enough. There are people lower than Talon in Legacy who can stand back to back with an ally and kill fodder in groups of two or three.

2. Obviously, but then that's Luke. I'm talking about the rest of the two eras. Luke is exceptional.

3. Quote for Palpatine doing it without effort?

Again, you're missing the point of Effort =/= Result. Palpatine was going all out on the B-Team, even though he slaughtered them he put effort into doing so.

Anyway, the point is you're stretching the Caedus quote beyond it's worth because outside of that, Saba has nothing to suggest she's as good as Krayt's head enforcer. The notion that she could be as good as him is just mind boggling to me. The Legacy era must be pretty sh*t in your mind if you think all it takes is someone like Saba to get through the best of Krayt's bodyguards and start trading blows with him herself.

1. So? Vong aren't fodder at all, especially not when a Jedi first encounters them.

2. You mentioned how they were relative to the cream of the crop in their respective eras.

3. I didn't say it was without effort. He unleashed himself, but he cut down Kit with liquid ease. Clearly Caedus didn't envision Saba suffering the same fate at his hands. Using effort doesn't make it difficult in the slightest. It just meant Palpatine went all-out, and in doing so, cut down Kit very easily and decisively.

4. So what if he went all out? Caedus's musings obviously involved him going all-out.

5. Not at all. If I don't hug Legacy like a teddy bear when I go to bed, that means I'm automatically underselling them? That's ridiculous. I have the Legacy era at a respectable level, but that doesn't automatically make Nihl above Saba.

The quote doesn't become invalid because of other showings. Saba still doesn't have any limit to suggest the quote is invalid. You might dislike the quote as much as others dislike Palpatine's quotes of supremacy, but nothing invalidates the quotes. Caedus's other assessments in that instance (that he can beat Ben and Leia easily and that it would be impossible for him to beat Saba and Luke at once) are completely correct.

And "all it takes is Saba"? That's implying Saba isn't one of the very best Jedi fighters of her age, which she clearly is, especially in Caedus's mind - somebody who isn't renowned for his humbleness. You clearly don't think much of the NJO era (especially Saba) if you reckon that nobody apart from Luke and Jaina can beat Krayt's elite or contend with him.

1. Neither are Sith Troopers, and people several tiers below Talon can take them on in similar waves as Kenth would take on Vong, except they also take on an army of Sith, stormtroopers and vehicles on top of all of that. Kenth and Saba are just not on-par with Talon. I'm just waiting for you to reverse your standards on the value of fodder-killing feats any second now, tbh.

2. I thought it went without saying that I was in no way comparing anyone to Luke. Seriously, just try and take a point for what it is for once; Talon, high-tier, well documented duelist. Saba - not so much.

3. You're contradicting yourself by saying Palpatine had to go all out in order to perform a task easily. Palpatine needing to go all out in order to do something means that whatever the task may be, it's a difficult one.

4. Exactly. Caedus might have difficulty stomping Saba, but he still would. And reality, if an enraged Kenth Hamner is all it takes to leave Saba with a lightsaber in her stomach maybe Caedus was just underrating himself. Nobody is infallible.

5. Not really lol. You're just underrating the best of the Legacy era by thinking they're a match for the lower tiers of other eras. You can ridicule the notion all you want but it's quite clear to see how you are with eras you don't understand.

Of course Caedus couldn't beat Luke and Saba at the same time lmfao. He couldn't solo Luke never mind a distraction on top of that. Doesn't help your case.

I didn't say it takes Luke or Jaina to take on Nihl lmfao. It just takes more than Saba. She's not really all that great. Neither is Kyp. Stick to debating Kyle, Corran, Mara etc. They have better feats.