Saba Sebatyne vs. Darth Nihl

Started by SunRazer4 pages

All I'm going to say is that it mentions "beating" Saba with difficulty, not stomping her with difficulty. A stomp in of itself means that it's not difficult. So that's a pretty lowly interpretation. Unless a quote can be provided for Sidious slaying Fisto "with difficulty", that's just a subjective term slapped on with no canonical value. We should try to make ourselves open to interpretations, but we also do kind of need to support it with at least some evidence. You can't just claim that Sidious killed Fisto with difficulty because he used effort - if he killed a peasant with full effort, does that mean he had difficulty in doing so? No, it doesn't.

Even if you're using the definition of "requiring a lot of effort", again, the quote mentions him requiring a lot of effort just to beat Saba, not a lot of effort to destroy her. There's a distinction, and one that writers wouldn't neglect. So the whole argument about "a lot of effort to stomp" lacks basis.

At the very least, you could argue that Saba is just next to being stomped by Caedus, but not quite.

Originally posted by ILS
The result of the fight has nothing to do with how difficult it was to reach that result. I guess I'll just post it for you again:

"needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."

Case in point: It's causing you a lot of effort to understand, or become able to deal with, the fact that Sidious exerted effort into stomping Fisto, thus making his victory over him one attained through a degree of difficulty, regardless of whether or not it was a stomp.

I do enjoy your anger though.

I'm sorry but it does. It does have something to do with that! I'm so sorry. You must be very disappointed. You've posted why yourself:

"needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."

Sidious didn't "need" to put much effort or skill into beating Fisto. And he didn't merely accomplish beating him or deal with him. He curbstomped him. Which is a level beyond those descriptions. Curbstomping someone is well in excess to merely defeating them. By your own definition, Sidious did not need much effort or skill to deal with Fisto in their fight.

Originally posted by ILS
Not at all. My point is that Caedus can still stomp Saba even if there is some difficulty involved in doing so.

Your other point, about Fisto. You admitted that Sidious could clown him, so I win.

Originally posted by ILS
Is exactly how it sounds, I agree. 👆 So does the dictionary, because as we now know, any activity in which a degree of effort is required to complete is one completed with a degree of difficulty. 👆

That isn't even what your quote says. 😆

It specifically says it's difficult if you need "much effort." That isn't the same as any degree. Maybe you should go look up the definition for "much" next, because somehow primary school children know the meaning of a word better than you do. haermm

Originally posted by ILS
The grading system analogy doesn't really translate well over to a battle between two fictional characters. 😬

Why not? The underlying concept is the same. Just like I did not merely pass the test, I aced it, Sidious did not merely beat Fisto, he crushed him.

That you are unable to recognise that there are degree's to which something may be accomplished demonstrates a lack of intelligence on your part and is very troubling about your mental maturity.

Originally posted by ILS
Now you just need proof that Sidious can stomp Fisto without much effort at all put in. When I say stomp I mean stomp him in the same manner as he did in RotS, just with very little effort on his part.

😐

P-Pretty sure I don't need to prove that. He already did stomp Fisto with very little effort, while also fighting Mace Windu at the same time. Killing someone in 3 attacks is very little effort.

Originally posted by ILS
One, actually, since Kolar and Tiin were out of the way earlier on. 👆

Fisto was present for that, so Sidious was fighting him at the same time. It's just that he was too slow to actually do anything.

Originally posted by ILS
It's not an ideal comparison but it's the best one I can think of in terms of how Saba would react to a high tier going all out on them. Can you think of a better one?

Dooku vs Yoda, perhaps? Yoda can clearly defeat Dooku, but it would still be difficult for him to do so and require some no small effort on his part.

Originally posted by ILS
I think it's a pretty valid comparison because, as we've discovered, Sidious was able to defeat someone along the lines of Saba, "with difficulty", but also in a stomp, which is a fair measuring stick for how Saba would perform. How she would perform for certain is not for me to know, I'm just giving a new perspective on the quote.

You see, that's your problem. You've already decided that Fisto and Saba are comparable and are basing the evidence around your conclusion instead of basing the conclusion around the evidence. I'd say Saba is better than Fisto. Caedus would clown Fisto in a fight just like Sidious, but if Saba poses a challenge for him that's a strong indication of a higher level.

Originally posted by ILS
I think the main issue with our discussion is not that you want to support Saba but more that your embarrassment at not understanding what a relatively basic word means is tearing you up inside. It's okay Neph, nobody is perfect. 👆

I don't actually want to support Saba and I didn't get into this spat with you because of that. I saw that you said something incredibly stupid so I pointed and laughed at the idiot.

Originally posted by ILS
I didn't say it was exceedingly difficult, only that he stomped Fisto with difficulty, which is absolutely true.

It absolutely is not true. Your quote says "need much effort". Sidious did not need much effort, he slaughtered him in 3 attacks while contending with someone else. It's a perfect example of a low-effort fight. And if he did "need" to put that much effort into the fight, it was because he was fighting Mace (mother****ing) Windu at the same time. Something you continually neglect to account for.

Originally posted by ILS
And to think you're meant to be one of the "veteran" debaters around here. You're not too great at this, I must say. 😬

You know for someone claiming not to be obsessed with me, you sure are spending a long time arguing with me instead of responding to SunRazer.

Sidious didn't "need" to put much effort or skill into beating Fisto.
Into attaining victory? Nope.

Into stomping him in three strikes? Questionable.

And he didn't merely accomplish beating him or deal with him. He curbstomped him. Which is a level beyond those descriptions. Curbstomping someone is well in excess to merely defeating them. By your own definition, Sidious did not need much effort or skill to deal with Fisto in their fight.
Your issue now is that you believe "curbstomping" can't possibly fall under the umbrella term "defeating" - Caedus can defeat Saba "with difficulty". The question is what the nature of this victory would be - a curbstomp, a decent fight? It's ambiguous. You seem to believe that "dealing with" someone cannot possibly also mean stomping them. Not true.
Your other point, about Fisto. You admitted that Sidious could clown him, so I win.
Clown him, sure.

But he didn't clown Savage in three moves. He clowned him in like, 7, or 10. He did it effortlessly but he didn't get the same results would he have put in effort. Would he have put in effort I'm sure Sidious would have went from clowning Savage in over a handful of moves to Fisto'ing him.

That's the level I see Saba at, which is why I'm making these comparisons. I know later on you go on to say "base your conclusion around evidence, Saba can contend with Caedus", and I'd agree if it was explicitly stated that she can contend with him. But she can't. She's just difficult to defeat, in whatever manner that means.

It specifically says it's difficult if you need "much effort." That isn't the same as any degree. Maybe you should go look up the definition for "much" next, because somehow primary school children know the meaning of a word better than you do.
Lol, you're getting awfully excited because I tripped up on my phrasing. Is this perhaps the highlight of your day, Neph? I do hope not. 😱
Why not? The underlying concept is the same. Just like I did not merely pass the test, I aced it, Sidious did not merely beat Fisto, he crushed him.

That you are unable to recognise that there are degree's to which something may be accomplished demonstrates a lack of intelligence on your part and is very troubling about your mental maturity.

I've acknowledged that there are degrees.

The point that you are missing is that you have not yet produced anything to suggest that Sidious, without applying "much effort" (😉 ), can wipe Fisto out in three moves.

P-Pretty sure I don't need to prove that. He already did stomp Fisto with very little effort, while also fighting Mace Windu at the same time. Killing someone in 3 attacks is very little effort.
No, killing someone in three attacks constitutes a stomp, not how much effort went into attaining that stomp. Show me Sidious stomping Fisto, or someone similar, in three or less moves while not exerting "much effort".
Fisto was present for that, so Sidious was fighting him at the same time. It's just that he was too slow to actually do anything.

Dooku vs Yoda, perhaps? Yoda can clearly defeat Dooku, but it would still be difficult for him to do so and require some no small effort on his part.
This is entirely plausible. As is my theory.

With that said, the fact Saba has a good amount of difficulty with Kenth Hamner, I'm thinking she's more along the lines of Fisto than Dooku.

I don't actually want to support Saba and I didn't get into this spat with you because of that. I saw that you said something incredibly stupid so I pointed and laughed at the idiot.
How noble of you. 😂

And if he did "need" to put that much effort into the fight, it was because he was fighting Mace (mother****ing) Windu at the same time. Something you continually neglect to account for.
Hence why in my last post I said it wasn't the perfect comparison. However it's not like Fisto suddenly becomes a bag of potatoes without Mace there. He still deflected what came his way for as long as he could, whereas other duelists like Aayla Secura have been put on their asses in one hit while engaging lesser duelists, even with Mace at their side to carry some of the weight.

You know for someone claiming not to be obsessed with me, you sure are spending a long time arguing with me instead of responding to SunRazer.

As soon as he agreed Nihl is more skilled than Saba I was done, tbh. We talk outside of KMC so I didn't feel the need to press him on it anymore here in a formal matter. That okay with you, dear? 💃