Saba Sebatyne vs. Darth Nihl

1. I'm aware that dealing with Vong in regards to skill alone isn't better than the feats you're mentioning, but having to fight without some of the essential parts of your fighting technique (precognition etc.) for the first time makes the feat so much better than just beating Vong with no regard to circumstances.

2. Saba's very clearly one of the best of her age as well. You're deluding yourself to suggest otherwise.

3. Palpatine needed to go all out because Anakin was approaching and he only wanted Windu alive, and in another room, to play his drama out. He needed to eliminate the other three quickly, even in Mace's presence, so he unleashed himself fully. That doesn't mean it wasn't an easy win - maybe not in terms of effort, but in terms of how quickly Kit fell even with Mace's aid.

Regardless of how we see this, I think it's agreeable that what Caedus had in mind wasn't the same as Palpatine vs Kit. If you really think that, I'm just going to drop the bias claim and leave this debate.

4. The quote wasn't that Caedus would have difficulty stomping Saba, but that Caedus would have difficulty beating Saba at all. Of course it's not a several-minute long, hellacious fight for either end with no visible edge for either - I have no doubt that Caedus would very decisively cut down Saba, but only after exerting himself completely and clashing with her for a solid ten seconds or more.

Caedus isn't underrating himself because you want him to. As with all Sith, he's arrogant (not overly so, but still) and not known for his humbleness. He hasn't severely underestimated himself before - in fact, quite the opposite.
Kenth has no defined limits, so for all we know he could be Nihl's match as well. I have nothing to base that on, so I won't push the point. Saba, however, is an entirely different story. Not to mention it wasn't Kenth just being enraged that let him stab Saba, who was holding back/underestimating Kenth.

5. I don't have qualms with Nihl being Plo's match as a duelist, lol, but I do think Saba's also a match for Plo. That's all I'm saying - it's nothing against the Legacy era as a whole - and you're reaching pretty pettily if you think it is.

6. So? The simple matter of fact is that every other musing he made in that instance was utterly correct by your standards - it's a double standard to suddenly go back on Saba because she hasn't shown feats to match that. Cin doesn't have the feats to suggest superiority to Shaak, yet he is her better.

7. I didn't say Kyp's that great a swordsman. Saba, however, is. And Corran doesn't have better feats than Saba - he definitely isn't above Saba, considering he was on the defensive in the snippet of the spar we had between them, and he was making liberal use of his extended lightsaber blade as well as Saba fighting with a new style. At the very worst, Saba is Corran's equal. At best, however, she's clearly above him.

1. I'd say fighting Jedi-tier combatants without your passive senses is roughly as good as fighting cybernetically enhanced super-Sith who can stomp regular Jedi and Sith. So with that said, Kenth Hamner via a comparison of feats is equivalent to someone like Ganner Kreig or Wolf Sazen, Shado at a push.

2. Quote? Or more conjecture?

3. You're getting so far away from the point it's not ever funny. Caedus' quote is ambiguous at best and the only comparison I can see for it is how Palpatine has reacted to duelists he could defeat "with difficulty", but should also by all rights stomp, which is how Caedus is to Saba. Drop the bias claim if you want, works for me lol.

4. Yeah, no. Pulling ten seconds out of your ass isn't going to cut it, sorry. There's no way to take that figure from Caedus saying he could kill Saba "with difficulty".

I'd say Caedus is quite humble. He shat himself at the notion of fighting Luke even though he did very well against him. Correct me if I'm wrong but he seems accurate most of the time, for a Sith. So yeah, I have no doubt in my mind that he could pull a Fisto on Saba. His feats suggest this and the Palpatine comparison aligns with it. Suggesting he wouldn't and that he would be given a decent fight by someone like Saba completely undermines who Caedus is meant to be - the most powerful Sith in the galaxy, the guy who dueled evenly with Luke, the guy who the "Sword of the Jedi" would be destroyed by without having "every possible advantage" on her side. Saba has nothing on that, whatsoever.

5. I don't see how Saba is on-par with Plo. People throw duelists on-par with Plo all the time because it's quite easy to do so. I don't think it's far fetched to put Krayt's head enforcer, and the guy who gave Cade Skywalker a very hard fight on that level. The chick whose best feat is against Kenth Hamner, on the other hand? Nah.

6. Who says I'm going back on Saba's quote? I'm not denying it, I'm just putting it in the correct perspective instead of pulling figures like 10 seconds out my ass.

7. Not seeing it. They had a very short spar, that doesn't necessarily denote that they are perfect equals or one is better in a real combat situation. It took Kenobi and Fisto an hour to find out who was better between them. Saesee Tiin dueled evenly with Mace in their short spar. It's definitely not enough to suggest Saba is on par with Corran. I tend to hold Corran in higher regard than her; he showed some very impressive skill in his fight with IIRC a Vong Warmaster, as well as his well-detailed and contested spar with Mara Jade where they were both suffering physically to a degree. Mara being someone I believe you have in that Kenobi/Maul pocket of dueling? So yeah, I really am not seeing Saba being up there.

1. Not exactly comparable feats. One is fighting somebody of just immense capacity, the other is of fighting not so immensely powerful enemies, but instead with severe hindrances to the very essence of one's fighting technique.

2. Her general depiction overall - Caedus's quote, and other things like the fact that Cilghal seems to consider her the among the best warriors on the Council. Cilghal also ceded inferiority to her as a warrior. Not as strong a basis as for Nihl, definitely, but to be fair, most NJO Jedi don't even have direct accolades to suggest they're the best of their time, sans Luke and Jaina.

3. That only works if you have any source suggesting Palpatine did in fact have difficulty in killing Kit, which you don't.

4. It's just a number, but the point is that "difficulty" isn't just an effort rating, but also a measure of how somebody else stacks up against you. I have never heard of any fight akin to Palpatine vs Fisto being called "difficult". There's a reason.

5. I rarely make comparisons to Plo, to be honest, Obi-Wan's less ambiguous and a better measuring stick. And given the amounts that some have improved via Force Rage is also worth taking into account, as his Saba holding back for at least a majority of the fight.

6. 10 seconds has no evidential criteria, sure, but at least its compatible with the idea of "difficult to beat" moreso than a virtual blitz.

7. It wasn't incredibly short - just that we only got two snippets of it because it was mostly focused on the others. And it's not decisive, true, but what we do see is Corran being on the defensive and making liberal use of his saber's extended reach to keep Saba at bay - who was using Jar'kai, which she's never used or been implied to use before - or at least not with her proficiency with a single blade.

Anyways, regarding Saba vs Nihl itself - I think suggesting she's outright more skilful is probably reaching, so I'll take that back, but being on par overall with her general fighting style and physical attributes being factored in shouldn't be a stretch. Nihl probably wins because, as I said, he's more powerful and has Lightning at his disposal.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I didn't say his fight with Draco was necessarily planned (nor necessarily an accident), but Eshkar Niin intentionally faked his death and escaped the Empire's radar--that's confirmed. That line of thought makes me think he decided to throw the fight to that end tbh.

Possibly intentionally, but possibly just 'I got a lightsaber wound by my old student, survived, and decided to not advertise the fact.'

Originally posted by ILS
You're stretching the term "difficulty" into "difficult fight" - Palpatine had "difficulty" with Fisto but that doesn't mean it was much of a fight.

LMAO WHAT?

Originally posted by Nephthys
LMAO WHAT?

How skilled do you think Saba is ILS?

She's ok

I honestly don't recall any notable skill feats from Saba apart from beating Welk who is fodder and outsparring Kenth who has only beaten Vong. Assuming Nihl has beaten someone who isn't a joke like Welk, or isn't the anus of the NJO like Hamner he probably wins.

👆

Originally posted by ILS
I take it you didn't read the rest of my posts and just decided to take one sentence out of context? Deary me, Neph. I thought you were good at this. You should probably go back to guzzling Bane's dick at the DMB Empire while the big boys have their big boy conversations now, kay? 😄

The context is that you're a complete goober. Sidious didn't have difficulty with Fisto, dude. Not even remotely. It's a utterly invalid comparison to Saba being difficult for Caedus to beat.

Now I remember how I pissed you off geez. Talk about insecure. 😆

Originally posted by Nephthys
The context is that you're a complete goober. Sidious didn't have difficulty with Fisto, dude. Not even remotely. It's a utterly invalid comparison to Saba being difficult for Caedus to beat.

Now I remember how I pissed you off geez. Talk about insecure.

If that's the case carthage must be in a permanent state of rage.

Vitiate arguably put effort into stomping his strike team, as much as Sidious did. Doesn't change the fact that he beat them "easily", as literally stated. But no, he absolutely did beat Fisto easily. He far eclipsed him and killed him ludicrously fast. It was easy. Although something doesn't have to be difficult if it wasn't easy.

Also lol @ you saying effort =/= difficulty then basing your argument around how much effort Sidious put in. Nice continuity. 👆

It really is a bit pathetic that me laughing at one post of yours enrages you so much that you storm around the forum insulting me. Pathetic....... but a little flattering. 😉

Definition of difficult:

"needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."

I'd say Sidious required a fair bit of that to stomp Fisto. An easy stomp would be more akin to him casually handing Savage his ass while playing around with his lightsaber ignition and stabbing him with his back turned. I'm glad we're now on the same page. 👆

It really is a bit pathetic that me laughing at one post of yours enrages you so much that you storm around the forum insulting me. Pathetic....... but a little flattering.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=612296&from=thread&pagenumber=2#post15202167

But they were certainly up there! I mean... saying Ulic should "last a bit" against Bane? Pretty hilarious if you ask me.

Except he didn't need to put in that effort to beat Fisto. Humoring you, it took him some effort to stomp him while fighting Mace Windu and 2 others at the same time, meaning that it wouldn't take him any at all to "deal with" him or to accomplish his victory. That's completely different from Caedus saying that it would be difficult for him to beat Saba at all. Maybe if he'd said "gosh, it would be hard for me to utterly destroy her in 2 seconds" you'd have a point. But he didn't, so you don't. It wasn't difficult for Sidious to beat Fisto. That he was going all out and Fisto therefore folded faster than a paper crane doesn't mean it was a difficult victory for him. That it's the complete opposite is why I laughed at you, because it's hilarious.

The more effort you put into denying that you have a thing for me the more transparent it gets.

Ciao-Ciao!

Hmm... ILS makes some good points 👆

He sent her flying into an explosion with the flick of his wrist, and she generally is nowhere near as skilled as him even with the implication in him considering her a "threat" (whatever that means). He even regarded Kyle as a challenge in spite of near bifurcating him and stomping him even with backup.

His opinion doesn't really match how she was dismissed, granted it wasn't an engagement based on pure skill between them on the Anakin Solo

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except he didn't need to put in that effort to beat Fisto.

Humoring you, it took him some effort to stomp him, meaning that it wouldn't take him any at all to "deal with" him or to accomplish his victory.

That's completely different from Caedus saying that it would be difficult for him to beat Saba at all.

Maybe if he'd said "gosh, it would be hard for me to utterly destroy her in 2 seconds" you'd have a point. But he didn't

It wasn't difficult for Sidious to beat Fisto.

That he was going all out and Fisto therefore folded faster than a paper crane doesn't mean it was a difficult victory for him.

That it's the complete opposite is why I laughed at you, because it's hilarious.

The more effort you put into denying that you have a thing for me the more transparent it gets.

Originally posted by ILS
To beat him, no. To stomp him in the same manner? Who knows.

I hate to break it to you, but if you stomp someone by default it means the person isn't difficult to defeat. You numpty.

Case in point: I'm putting some effort into this reply, but by no means was this a difficult discussion for me to win. My victory was evident from the start. Its a stomp.

Originally posted by ILS
Nobody is disputing that Sidious could play around with Fisto before beating him.

Cool. Then your point is completely invalid. 👆

Originally posted by ILS
It's down to interpretation ultimately, but personally I don't see how you and Nova's more generous interpretation is more valid than mine. Caedus would have difficulty defeating Saba? Cool. Sidious had a degree of difficulty defeating Fisto despite how one sided it was.

It really isn't open to interpretation. Saying Sidious had trouble beating Fisto because he needed to go all out to stomp him is like saying that because it was "difficult" for me to get an A on the test, it was difficult for me to pass the test. If you exceed the minimum requirements to accomplish something by miles then it is not difficult to accomplish something. Also Sidious was fighting 3 other people at the same time. 😬

Originally posted by ILS
Rofl, I didn't realize the way he said it aids your argument any more than it does mine. Your argument is lacking horridly atm.

It's the other way around genius. You're the one trying to compare it to an example where Sidious stomped someone. Your argument is "hmmm weeeeeell i think, that maybe, he meant that it would be difficult for him to stomp Sababa." Me pointing out that this isn't a remotely valid comparison and not anything like what he said is a fair point and I advise you to concede.

Originally posted by ILS
No, but the visible effort Sidious put into accomplishing the task does. Why is this difficult for you Neph? 😂

Yeah, it was so difficult for Sidious to kill someone in 3 attacks while fighting another person. A curbstomp fight is the definition of a tough fight amirite?

Originally posted by ILS
The only part that's hilarious is the fact you've just gotten done accusing me of being insecure, upset and a borderline-stalker, yet here you are typing up a big paragraph of nonsense in an attempt to save face. Pretty pathetic and funny if you ask me. 😂 😂 😂

Or again, maybe you just find yourself to be a little bit too important. And again, if you didn't want my attention you'd have blocked me or asked me to stop talking to you by now. I didn't realize your fetish was acknowledging your stalker and then continuing a lengthy conversation with them. Pretty creepy, bro. 😂

I simply still believe in you ILS. You can do it! <3

I hate to break it to you, but if you stomp someone by default it means the person isn't difficult to defeat. You numpty.

"needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."

Case in point: It's causing you a lot of effort to understand, or become able to deal with, the fact that Sidious exerted effort into stomping Fisto, thus making his victory over him one attained through a degree of difficulty, regardless of whether or not it was a stomp.

I do enjoy your anger though.

Cool. Then your point is completely invalid.

It really isn't open to interpretation. Saying Sidious had trouble beating Fisto because he needed to go all out to stomp him

is like saying that because it was "difficult" for me to get an A on the test, it was difficult for me to pass the test.

If you exceed the minimum requirements to accomplish something by miles then it is not difficult to accomplish something.

Also Sidious was fighting 3 other people at the same time.

It's not an ideal comparison but it's the best one I can think of in terms of how Saba would react to a high tier going all out on them. Can you think of a better one?

It's the other way around genius. You're the one trying to compare it to an example where Sidious stomped someone. Your argument is "hmmm weeeeeell i think, that maybe, he meant that it would be difficult for him to stomp Sababa." Me pointing out that this isn't a remotely valid comparison and not anything like what he said is a fair point and I advise you to concede.

I think the main issue with our discussion is not that you want to support Saba but more that your embarrassment at not understanding what a relatively basic word means is tearing you up inside. It's okay Neph, nobody is perfect. 👆

Yeah, it was so difficult for Sidious to kill someone in 3 attacks while fighting another person. A curbstomp fight is the definition of a tough fight amirite?

I simply still believe in you ILS. You can do it! <3