Goten & Trunks vs. The Gero Family...

Goten & Trunks (Buu saga)

VS.

Round 1:
Androids #19 & #20

Round 2:
Androids #17 & #18

Round 3:
Android #16

Round 4:
Semi-Perfect Cell

Round 5:
1 Cell Junior

-Fight takes place on the Sacred World of the Kais.
-The boys are at their peaks.
-They start each Round at full power, and do not hold back.
-No fusion.

How far do they get?

*Note: I do not expect the boys to clear. I gave them such a wide range of opponents, because there tends to be a wide range of opinion regarding their power levels.

They make it pass Semi-perfect Cell after a hard fight. Cell junior stomps them.

Any particular reason(s) why?

I have them around the same level as you, btw. Just curious if our reasoning is similar...

If they made it past 17 and 18 I'd be really surprised.

I mean maybe with the training in the Room of Space and Time but that was mostly fusion related, which is off the table here. It also wasn't for a full year.

Dunno. SSJ Goten briefly sparred with SSJ Gohan, and SSJ Trunks briefly sparred with SSJ Vegeta. On both occasions the boys nearly overwhelmed the adults. It's really, really hard for me to imagine a #17/#18-level opponent giving Gohan or Vegeta any grief at all by that point in the story. Even though Gohan was weaker at the time, he still would have logically been several times more powerful than the Androids. Vegeta, on the other hand, had actually become stronger since the Cell saga. So yeah...

Aside from that, #18 was scarred shitless by one of the boys' restrained blasts--to the point that she felt the need to dodge it, instead of simply blocking/deflecting it. She also commented on how f*cking powerful the blast was immediately afterward... And again: the boys drastically neutered that blast because they didn't want to harm #18. However, #18 herself certainly gave the impression that it still would have caused significant damage to her(ergo her anxiously dodging it at the last second, the beads of nervous-sweat depicted on her face immediately afterward, and her "OMFG!!" comments.)

That said, an argument can definitely be made for the boys being > the Androids, imo.

Do you really think the adults were using anywhere close to their full power, though?

We also saw what happened when Vegeta hit Trunks, and almost freaked out over it.

On both accounts the adults were playing defensively and were still processing how strange it was that the kids could go Super Saiyan. Vegeta threw one punch and ended his bout with Trunks instantly lol. Though in Trunks' defense he was not expecting a hit, just like how Vegeta/Gohan were not expecting the kids to be that strong.

I think you are taking the scene a bit too far. The scene where Goten throws a rock at Gohan is played exactly the same way and 18 herself has always had a "dodge the attack" mindset(dodging an attack she called half-assed). I read it as her being more surprised by their power and the fact that they threw a massive ki-blast at her. Keep in mind she hadn't been taking the fight all that seriously(her ki attack to the arena did almost nothing). She did end the fight in one attack once she got serious and the boys likewise opted to dodge the attack.

There are other reasons I pick 17 and 18 though. Infinite energy for one thing would allow them to fight the kids much longer than normal, the kids weakness is their comparative frailty, and they generally lack the battle experience to make much use of being truly blood lusted(they'd probably waste more energy than they should).

A SSJ can handle 19 and 20, but a normal SSJ is not enough for 17 and 18.

Trunks and Goten are likely the weakest super saiyans, and it was only once ASSJ was reached that SSJs could beat androids.

I mean, even during the matchup with 18, that was with her fighting *both* of them and finding their style weird because she thought they were two people.

Originally posted by cdtm
Do you really think the adults were using anywhere close to their full power, though?

So he definitely powered up to *some* extent, and Trunks still nearly overwhelmed him. Would he have to power up at all to beat the Androids? Certainly not imo.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
On both accounts the adults were playing defensively and were still processing how strange it was that the kids could go Super Saiyan. Vegeta threw one punch and ended his bout with Trunks instantly lol. Though in Trunks' defense he was not expecting a hit, just like how Vegeta/Gohan were not expecting the kids to be that strong.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I think you are taking the scene a bit too far. The scene where Goten throws a rock at Gohan is played exactly the same way and 18 herself has always had a "dodge the attack" mindset(dodging an attack she called half-assed). I read it as her being more surprised by their power and the fact that they threw a massive ki-blast at her. Keep in mind she hadn't been taking the fight all that seriously(her ki attack to the arena did almost nothing). She did end the fight in one attack once she got serious and the boys likewise opted to dodge the attack.

For a point of comparison, this is what #18 looks like when she dodges a blast that she isn't worried about:
http://i.imgur.com/96ozveQ.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Ys7ZHib.gif
http://i.imgur.com/qidpvTt.gif

First scene:

=Visibly worried.

Second scene:

=Visibly unworried.

...And once more: the boys heavily suppressed that blast, yet it still scared the piss out of her.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
and they generally lack the battle experience to make much use of being truly blood lusted(they'd probably waste more energy than they should).

So the boys can act in that capacity when the situation requires it.

Originally posted by Q99
A SSJ can handle 19 and 20, but a normal SSJ is not enough for 17 and 18.

Trunks and Goten are likely the weakest super saiyans, and it was only once ASSJ was reached that SSJs could beat androids.

Originally posted by Q99
I mean, even during the matchup with 18, that was with her fighting *both* of them and finding their style weird because she thought they were two people.

Originally posted by Galan007

Their fighting style was terrible, actually, because they kept getting in each others way--they couldn't sync their movements and whatnot. Certainly you don't think that poor performance has any bearing on a fight where they would be acting as individuals, do you?

Worse than them acting as two separate individals, but better than one acting as an individual, because one was doing full strength punch, the other full strength kicks, and focusing entirely on those at the same time in the way one individual *couldn't*.

It's only when they had to move around and pick directions and such that they messed up.

You realize that as individuals they'd both be delivering full-power punches and kicks, right? Trying to act as one person actually hindered them quite a bit.

Trunks and Goten individually>>Mighty Mask.

Originally posted by Galan007
Also in Trunks' defense, Buu-saga SSJ Vegeta could one-shot anyone in this thread, sans the Cell Jr.(which I don't think Trunks has a chance against anyway.) So yeah, not the best comparison if you're trying to disprove the notion that the boys>Androids.

I don't think Vegeta would casually one shot Cell or the Androids with a punch thrown at reflex followed by an "oops". He didn't hit Trunks with a massive blow like, say, the one Gohan used on Perfect Cell(or, conversely, the kick Vegeta used on Perfect Cell).

It would be like me using this as a basis for Trunk's ki blast. Unable to significantly hurt Goten at base, probably because it was thrown out without thinking like Vegeta's punch.

Originally posted by Galan007

Ignore the text(because it's not exactly accurate), but look at #18's expression/depiction here:
http://i.imgur.com/o8Ot8dQ.gif
http://i.imgur.com/byqbt7P.gif
http://i.imgur.com/nCs4SB8.gif
She was clearly worried about that blast. Flustered facial expression, nervous sweat-beads dripping from her face, "OMFG!!" narrative(I can post her exact statements if you'd like), etc.

For a point of comparison, this is what #18 looks like when she dodges a blast that she isn't worried about:
http://i.imgur.com/96ozveQ.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Ys7ZHib.gif
http://i.imgur.com/qidpvTt.gif

First scene:

=Visibly worried.

Second scene:

=Visibly unworried.

...And once more: the boys heavily suppressed that blast, yet it still scared the piss out of her.

Yeah and Gohan has a similar reaction here.

Most every character reacts to Goten and Trunks this way. I don't take it to mean the kids are that much more powerful than everyone else but everyone else being so shocked at exactly how strong they really are.

Also keep in mind that while Trunks "didn't use full power" he was also under the impression that his ki attacks wouldn't actually kill her because she was once stronger than his dad. So I'm not really sold on how much they held back, only that Trunks didn't use his full power.

Originally posted by Galan007
For what it's worth, a 'bloodlusted' Trunks delivered one hell of a kick to [an albeit unprepared] Fat Buu:
http://i.imgur.com/xGCvIpw.gif
http://i.imgur.com/C5S2QRY.gif
http://i.imgur.com/XO1h89b.gif
(Again: ignore the text.)

So the boys can act in that capacity when the situation requires it.

Well yeah he was unprepared lol. The new movie basically says being unprepared makes you vulnerable, which probably goes double for playful characters like Buu.

This is what happened when Gotenks seriously tried to fight Buu and he had little reason to hold back. He should also be much stronger than Trunks.

Originally posted by Galan007
As evident by their overall calm/playful demeanors, Trunks and Goten were both FPSSJ.

I'm not sure I can believe this one. Goten could barely control the Kamehameha. Being a FPSSJ is a bit much since it requires a complete mastery over the ki to stay relaxed. I just think of them as very strange Super Saiyans since we never see how they awoke their forms.

I just figured they were the logical extension of Saiyan "hybrid vigor." Gohan's always been stronger at a younger age then pure Saiyans, including achieving base SSJ much easier then Goku did. And then there's Pan (Or is it Bra?) Whatever, the little girl that was racing around the world at like 5.

I thought that only Goku and Gohan learned MSSJ? At least officially?

Originally posted by Galan007
Dunno. SSJ Goten briefly sparred with SSJ Gohan, and SSJ Trunks briefly sparred with SSJ Vegeta. On both occasions the boys nearly overwhelmed the adults. It's really, really hard for me to imagine a #17/#18-level opponent giving Gohan or Vegeta any grief at all by that point in the story. Even though Gohan was weaker at the time, he still would have logically been several times more powerful than the Androids. Vegeta, on the other hand, had actually become stronger since the Cell saga. So yeah...

Aside from that, #18 was scarred shitless by one of the boys' restrained blasts--to the point that she felt the need to dodge it, instead of simply blocking/deflecting it. She also commented on how f*cking powerful the blast was immediately afterward... And again: the boys drastically neutered that blast because they didn't want to harm #18. However, #18 herself certainly gave the impression that it still would have caused significant damage to her(ergo her anxiously dodging it at the last second, the beads of nervous-sweat depicted on her face immediately afterward, and her "OMFG!!" comments.)

That said, an argument can definitely be made for the boys being > the Androids, imo.

Just want to know which translation you read, I read the manga at my library and #18's reactions was more (along the lines of) "Those kids are strong." I do not recall a OMFG reaction. After the Buu training I haven't a clue but at the tournament I don't see them being capable of taking Semi Perfect Cell and probably having difficulty against Android 16.

But this is my least familiar saga so take it with a grain of salt.

They would be hard pressed to get passed #2 imo. If they did, they wouldn't get passed #3

Honestly they haven't done much to say they could beat the Androids. However that kick Trunks delivered to Buu outdid Gohan's cheap kick to Buu. So...

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I don't think Vegeta would casually one shot Cell or the Androids with a punch thrown at reflex followed by an "oops". He didn't hit Trunks with a massive blow like, say, the one Gohan used on Perfect Cell(or, conversely, the kick Vegeta used on Perfect Cell).

He became visibly pissed when Trunks actually managed a glancing blow, and punched Trunks like he would an enemy. Given the power Vegeta was packing during the Buu saga, to say that the same punch would not have incapacitated the Androids(at the very least) is to drastically lowball Vegeta, imo. By the end of the Cell saga he had become SEVERAL times more powerful than the Androids--and Buu saga Vegeta>Cell saga Vegeta, so...

Originally posted by AuraAngel
It would be like me using this as a basis for Trunk's ki blast. Unable to significantly hurt Goten at base, probably because it was thrown out without thinking like Vegeta's punch.

C'mon, don't lowball.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Also keep in mind that while Trunks "didn't use full power" he was also under the impression that his ki attacks wouldn't actually kill her because she was once stronger than his dad.

#18's own reaction to the blast tells us all we need to know:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power!! Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?!…This is dangerous!! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Well yeah he was unprepared lol.

Those panels were simply meant to demonstrate Trunks acting in a 'bloodlusted' capacity. Obviously I'm not comparing the boys to Fat Buu. srsly

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I'm not sure I can believe this one. Goten could barely control the Kamehameha. Being a FPSSJ is a bit much since it requires a complete mastery over the ki to stay relaxed. I just think of them as very strange Super Saiyans since we never see how they awoke their forms.

Super Saiyan Grade Four
"A form where without consciously raising their ki they are still able to remain Super Saiyan on a regular basis: that's Grade Four. From the start Grade One balanced power, energy consumption, etc. This form removes the slightly agitated state which characterizes Grade One. It's a natural form of Super Saiyan which has even gotten rid of their wild personality!"

So Gotenks/Trunks were FPSSJ, according to the official/canon definition of the form. 👆

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Just want to know which translation you read, I read the manga at my library and #18's reactions was more (along the lines of) "Those kids are strong." I do not recall a OMFG reaction. After the Buu training I haven't a clue but at the tournament I don't see them being capable of taking Semi Perfect Cell and probably having difficulty against Android 16.

But this is my least familiar saga so take it with a grain of salt.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power!! Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?!…This is dangerous!! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

And again: the boys had suppressed the blast that #18 freaked out about.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Honestly they haven't done much to say they could beat the Androids. However that kick Trunks delivered to Buu outdid Gohan's cheap kick to Buu. So...

Compare the effects of Gohan's cheap-shot:

To the effects of Trunks' cheap-shot:

Neither of them had a reason to hold back against Buu, yet Trunks' kick obviously packed much more of a wallop than Gohan's. Food for thought. 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
We both know those blasts were completely different. The blast you mentioned barely singed Gotenks' clothing.

So Gotenks/Trunks were FPSSJ, according to the official/canon definition of the form. 👆