Goten & Trunks vs. The Gero Family...

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Goten and Trunks were in the Hyperbolic time chamber for one hour. That is the equivalent of 15 days, on the inside. Two weeks. That is not enough time for a noticeable power increase to occur. Again, the only real difference was that they had created new attacks, and learned SSJ3. Along with gaining a mastery of the fusion dance. That is all.

2. I can't find the official english translation, but in it Vegeta said that Gohan had lost over half of his strength. In the unofficial version, he just says that Gohan "isn't even close" to the level he was at when he fought Cell.

3. Uh, that was SSJ2 Gohan. Not MSSJ1 Gohan. SSJ2 Gohan was around equal to Dabura/Perfect Cell. Which makes sense, given that Gohan had lost half of his strength, and SSJ2 is a 2X boost to SSJ1. Which would make SSJ2 Buu saga Gohan equal to his MSSJ1 Cell saga self.

4. That is 100% not true. Trunks was brought to tears because his nose was bloodied after being slugged by Vegeta. His face was even still bruised after he wiped the blood off of his nose.

So... Yeah, he shrugged it off to look cool for his dad, but he was still bloodied by that single punch. So again, given that MSSJ1 Vegeta > MSSJ1 Trunks, that means that Super Vegeta >> MSSJ1 Trunks, which puts a Cell Jr. also well above Trunks.

Training and its power increase are very plot heavy in DBZ. Also, they were actually seriously training for a goal, for the first time in their lives. Gotenks power stems from them, and Gotenks also got insanely more powerful compared to when they went in. Two weeks did a lot for them.

There isn't anything suggesting he went ssj2. Even Vegeta, who was incapable of going ssj2, was saying how he or Goku could have taken Dabura already. Gohan was weaker than when he fought Cell sure but nothing says that he was that much weaker. The lightning aura was around him during the tournament, and the same aura was around Goku and Vegeta when they went ssj2 fighting each other, so its not just Akira forgetting the aura around Gohan. He just didn't go ssj2.

Trunks still cried because he wasn't expecting to be hit. He had no guard up, or anything. And he still took a full punch from a Vegeta that was ssj. And that was without any proper training. Then he had the month or whatever of formal training by Vegeta to be even stronger. Vegeta at that time was also stronger than Cell.

And if what the Daizenshuu said is true, Gohan = Goten. And ssj Gohan fought Dabura nearly evenly without going ssj2. And Dabura = Perfect Cell > Cell Jrs.
Vegeta/Goku >= Cell Saga ssj Gohan > Trunks = Cell =Dabura > Buu Saga Gohan = Goten > Cell Jr. > Super Vegeta

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yeah, but they weren't that much stronger. The only real difference was that they learned SSJ3 while they were fused.

And fighting evenly with a weakened SSJ1 Gohan certainly does NOT make you as powerful as a Cell Jr. SSJ1 Gohan from the Cell saga was weaker than Super Vegeta and Trunks, and they were both weaker than the Cell Jr.'s. Buu saga Gohan was less than HALF as strong as he was during the Cell saga, according to Vegeta.

So Cell Jr. > Super Vegeta > Cell saga MSSJ1 Gohan > Buu saga SSJ1 Gohan >= MSSJ1 Goten.

MSSJ1 Trunks was also more powerful than Goten, and even he was brought to tears by a serious hit from MSSJ1 Vegeta. Super Vegeta would have stomped him, and he was weaker than a Cell Jr.

Gotenks is the only way for Goten or Trunks to beat a Cell Jr. They MIGHT be able to win with teamwork, but it'd be a hell of a fight.

end of buu sage trunks and goten have trained in the hyperbolic time chamber they can beat the androids they just stop at cell junior

Originally posted by Kento
Training and its power increase are very plot heavy in DBZ. Also, they were actually seriously training for a goal, for the first time in their lives. Gotenks power stems from them, and Gotenks also got insanely more powerful compared to when they went in. Two weeks did a lot for them.

There isn't anything suggesting he went ssj2. Even Vegeta, who was incapable of going ssj2, was saying how he or Goku could have taken Dabura already. Gohan was weaker than when he fought Cell sure but nothing says that he was that much weaker. The lightning aura was around him during the tournament, and the same aura was around Goku and Vegeta when they went ssj2 fighting each other, so its not just Akira forgetting the aura around Gohan. He just didn't go ssj2.

Trunks still cried because he wasn't expecting to be hit. He had no guard up, or anything. And he still took a full punch from a Vegeta that was ssj. And that was without any proper training. Then he had the month or whatever of formal training by Vegeta to be even stronger. Vegeta at that time was also stronger than Cell.

And if what the Daizenshuu said is true, Gohan = Goten. And ssj Gohan fought Dabura nearly evenly without going ssj2. And Dabura = Perfect Cell > Cell Jrs.
Vegeta/Goku >= Cell Saga ssj Gohan > Trunks = Cell =Dabura > Buu Saga Gohan = Goten > Cell Jr. > Super Vegeta

1. Gotenks did NOT get that much more powerful. As I stated, the biggest differences between pre-ROSAT Gotenks, and post-ROSAT Gotenks were the super ghost kamikaze attack, and SSJ3. His base power level didn't change much, which is why he STILL was incapable of even damaging Buu in base form, and was only able to hurt him with sneak attacks in SSJ1.

2. What? Of course Vegeta could go SSJ2. He went SSJ2 multiple times in the Buu saga, like against Kid Buu. However, Vegeta and Goku's statement that Gohan was half as powerful as he was in the Cell saga wouldn't make sense if Gohan could fight a perfect Cell level opponent on par in SSJ1. The lightning is NOT always present when characters go SSJ2, as I have already proven several times in this thread alone. I can post a dozen scans of SSJ2's with no lightning aura, in case you don't agree.

Gohan was a SSJ2, and this is made noticeable by his hair, and more hardened features.

3. Vegeta was stronger than Cell. That is irrelevant.

You're speculating with this whole, "Trunks didn't have his guard up" thing. He was going at full power trying to attack Vegeta, which means his ki was at it's maximum. Which, in DBZ, translates to being ON-GUARD.

4. You're basing your entire argument on the false premise that Gohan didn't go SSJ2 against Dabura. Which is incorrect. Gohan DID go SSJ2 against Dabura, which is why Vegeta and Goku were so disappointed in him. It's also why Vegeta stated that he would beat Dabura easily, and why Goku said that Dabura would have been really tough, back when they fought Cell. But Vegeta and Goku could have beaten him as a SSJ1, and Gohan could only stalemate him as a SSJ2.

So again, Vegeta/Goku > Perfect Cell ~ Dabura ~ SSJ2 Buu saga Gohan > Cell Jr. ~ SSJ1 Trunks > SSJ1 Gohan ~ SSJ1 Goten.

Which is why I said it might be possible that Trunks and Goten together could beat a Cell Jr. They're not that far behind one in power, but the regeneration would be a huge factor, if Cell Jr.'s can regenerate like Cell, that is.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Gotenks did NOT get that much more powerful. As I stated, the biggest differences between pre-ROSAT Gotenks, and post-ROSAT Gotenks were the super ghost kamikaze attack, and SSJ3. His base power level didn't change much, which is why he STILL was incapable of even damaging Buu in base form, and was only able to hurt him with sneak attacks in SSJ1.

2. What? Of course Vegeta could go SSJ2. He went SSJ2 multiple times in the Buu saga, like against Kid Buu. However, Vegeta and Goku's statement that Gohan was half as powerful as he was in the Cell saga wouldn't make sense if Gohan could fight a perfect Cell level opponent on par in SSJ1. The lightning is NOT always present when characters go SSJ2, as I have already proven several times in this thread alone. I can post a dozen scans of SSJ2's with no lightning aura, in case you don't agree.

Gohan was a SSJ2, and this is made noticeable by his hair, and more hardened features.

3. Vegeta was stronger than Cell. That is irrelevant.

You're speculating with this whole, "Trunks didn't have his guard up" thing. He was going at full power trying to attack Vegeta, which means his ki was at it's maximum. Which, in DBZ, translates to being ON-GUARD.

4. You're basing your entire argument on the false premise that Gohan didn't go SSJ2 against Dabura. Which is incorrect. Gohan DID go SSJ2 against Dabura, which is why Vegeta and Goku were so disappointed in him. It's also why Vegeta stated that he would beat Dabura easily, and why Goku said that Dabura would have been really tough, back when they fought Cell. But Vegeta and Goku could have beaten him as a SSJ1, and Gohan could only stalemate him as a SSJ2.

So again, Vegeta/Goku > Perfect Cell ~ Dabura ~ SSJ2 Buu saga Gohan > Cell Jr. ~ SSJ1 Trunks > SSJ1 Gohan ~ SSJ1 Goten.

Which is why I said it might be possible that Trunks and Goten together could beat a Cell Jr. They're not that far behind one in power, but the regeneration would be a huge factor, if Cell Jr.'s can regenerate like Cell, that is.

But when Gohan fought Dabura Vegeta couldn't go ssj2. And Vegeta saying Gohan isn't as close to being the level he was when he fought Cell seems a more accurate statement than Gohan being half as powerful. Because SSJ Gohan in Cell Saga was stronger than Cell. So going from being stronger than Cell to barely being able to keep up with someone of Cells level at ssj would make him a lot weaker. And not once is Gohan shown having lighting aura around him while fighting while both ssj2 Goku and Vegeta are. And not once is Gohan shown with lighting against Buu while Goku and Vegeta are both ssj2 fighting each other, and lighting all around them. Its one thing too debate it coming from movies or something, but even Akira isn't so bad as to forget it on one character and then show two other characters have it, then next page the one character never having it.

There's no way Gohan was ssj2. Akira forgets details and what he wrote a lot but forgetting to give Gohan lightning aura during the same time giving Goku and Vegeta lightning aura just doesn't add up.

Originally posted by Kento
The power they had as Gotenks went from being weaker than Fat Buu, so not much stronger than they are unfused to being a little bit stronger than Super Buu. Even with obtaining ssj3, which is also a part of showing they got a lot of power in a short time because ssj was only obtainable, Gotenks gained a lot of power.

But when Gohan fought Dabura Vegeta couldn't go ssj2. And Vegeta saying Gohan isn't as close to being the level he was when he fought Cell seems a more accurate statement than Gohan being half as powerful. Because SSJ Gohan in Cell Saga was stronger than Cell. So going from being stronger than Cell to barely being able to keep up with someone of Cells level at ssj would make him a lot weaker. And not once is Gohan shown having lighting aura around him while fighting while both ssj2 Goku and Vegeta are. And not once is Gohan shown with lighting against Buu while Goku and Vegeta are both ssj2 fighting each other, and lighting all around them. Its one thing too debate it coming from movies or something, but even Akira isn't so bad as to forget it on one character and then show two other characters have it, then next page the one character never having it.

There's no way Gohan was ssj2. Akira forgets details and what he wrote a lot but forgetting to give Gohan lightning aura during the same time giving Goku and Vegeta lightning aura just doesn't add up.

We only saw Pre-ROSAT BASE Gotenks get phucked up by Buu. SSJ1 is 50X stronger than base form, so it's safe to say that SSJ Gotenks pre-ROSAT would have done at least decent against fat Buu. And SSJ3 Gotenks was only a little stronger than Super Buu. SSJ1 Gotenks wasn't even able to hurt him, bearing super ghost kamikaze attack.

What? SSJ Gohan from the Cell saga was NOT stronger than Perfect Cell. SSJ Gohan was weaker than SSJ Goku, and Goku was weaker than Perfect Cell. Goku only sent Gohan in because he knew he could go SSJ2 and win.

Goku and Vegeta didn't have lightning around them during their entire fight. I can give scans.

You made the same point twice, so here ya go.

Vegeta clearly doesn't have lightning here, despite being SSJ2.

Even more proof that Gohan was SSJ2, is how he EXPLICITLY states that he was at full power. His full power is in SSJ2, not SSJ1. 👆

There's no way to solve the Gotenks debate. So.I'm gonna drop it.

Gohan was stronger than Goku.. That's why he assumed Goku was holding back. He kept up with the fight too easily and didn't think Goku was going all out because of it. Gohan was the most powerful person there. At the least he was even with Cell but be wasn't weaker than Goku.

Of course they don't have it around them BEFORE they got ssj2. But once they do they have the aura. Vegeta has it around him in his fight with Fat and Kid Buu also. Gohan has no lightning aura around him ever except in the tournament. It's unbelievable that Gohan is ssj2 and Akira forgot to put the aura around him when every single other scene involving ssj2 has the aura.

Gohans power fluctuate with anger. Right after that when Buu appears he says he might have a chance if he could get out his full power. And before that he talks about how be isn't angry as he was to pull out the power he knows he has. Even Kaioshin tells Gohan, after he blows up the Buu ball and said he was fully charged, to bring out his full power.

Originally posted by Kento
There's no way to solve the Gotenks debate. So.I'm gonna drop it.

Gohan was stronger than Goku.. That's why he assumed Goku was holding back. He kept up with the fight too easily and didn't think Goku was going all out because of it. Gohan was the most powerful person there. At the least he was even with Cell but be wasn't weaker than Goku.

Of course they don't have it around them BEFORE they got ssj2. But once they do they have the aura. Vegeta has it around him in his fight with Fat and Kid Buu also. Gohan has no lightning aura around him ever except in the tournament. It's unbelievable that Gohan is ssj2 and Akira forgot to put the aura around him when every single other scene involving ssj2 has the aura.

Gohans power fluctuate with anger. Right after that when Buu appears he says he might have a chance if he could get out his full power. And before that he talks about how be isn't angry as he was to pull out the power he knows he has. Even Kaioshin tells Gohan, after he blows up the Buu ball and said he was fully charged, to bring out his full power.

Yes, because you're simply incorrect. 👆

Gohan was not stronger than Goku, they were equal. THAT is the reason that Goku thought Goku was holding back, because he was used to being weaker than Goku, and he saw that Goku was only using the same amount of power as him. Which is why Gohan couldn't beat Cell without going SSJ2. Because he was weaker than Cell, as was Goku. Gohan MIGHT have been a smidge stronger than Goku, but not really enough to consider him more powerful. Just like how we consider SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta to be equals.

Okay, I don't care how unbelievable it is to you. Akira Toriyama forgot that Launch even existed, I'm sure it's not that much of a stretch to think that he forgot to put a little lightning aura around Gohan. However, the facts still stand. Gohan said he was at FULL POWER, and his hair AND pupils were in SSJ2 style, not his relaxed SSJ1 demeanor. There is more proof saying he is SSJ2, than there is saying that he's SSJ1. It is too contradictory, and there is nothing that contradicts him being a SSJ2. In fact, him being a SSJ2 makes THE MOST sense, given that he was half as strong as he was during the Cell saga, and SSJ2 is a 2X boost to SSJ1. That would make SSJ2 Buu saga Gohan EQUAL to Perfect Cell, who is roughly as strong as Dabura. This makes a lot of sense, given that Dabura and Gohan were equals, and Goku and Vegeta both commented how pitiful it was that Gohan had gotten so much weaker.

Supreme Kai was just boasting, and talking big because he thought Gohan just killed Buu. And he didn't insinuate that Gohan hadn't been at full power, he just said, "Bring out your full power, we're almost done!", because the plan was for Gohan to kill Dabura. Not to mention that Supreme Kai is HORRIBLE at gauging someone's strength. He most likely can't even sense ki, which is why he didn't feel Buu's ki growing so fast that Gohan literally nearly shat himself.

gohan was definitely stronger than goku during the cell games

goku literally said he wa going all out but gohan thought he was holding back because he was comparing his strength with his father

which clearly means gohan ssj1 was stronger thn goku ssj1

Clear all.