Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Because bfr is off thus judo throws to space aren't going to work.
It's a good thing he doesn't need to judo throw him. Do you feel Karate Kid can't hurt Thor level beings? Don't be silly. He is also way way faster.
Explain how he wins, how he gets around the speed, etc.
? Gets around his speed...?
Most versions of Val have feats where they dodge/counter/redirect a high end speedster.
I know Hercs pretty fast for a brick, but he's not on Quicksilvers level, while Val is.
Edit: Never mind, I misread your post.and thought you were asking how Val could deal with Hercs speed.
Originally posted by SurturMost of KMC doesn't doubt Val's potential for fighting out of his weight class. But how many Hulk-level bricks has he actually defeated in pure H2H?
It's a good thing he doesn't need to judo throw him. Do you feel Karate Kid can't hurt Thor level beings? Don't be silly. He is also way way faster.Explain how he wins, how he gets around the speed, etc.
Originally posted by ODG
Most of KMC doesn't doubt Val's potential for fighting out of his weight class. But how many Hulk-level bricks has he actually defeated in pure H2H?
Beat Persuader in the old days, and he's a pretty tough brick even without the atomic axe.
KOed Pre Crisis Superboy, by spinning him around like a top from a choke hold.
Knocked around Kon El in sparring matches, while barely trying.
Held his own with Equus, breaking his legs and chopping off an arm (In seperate fights.)
Generally, it's true he does struggle to actually hurt "true invulnerable" types, though. Like, he never really KO'd pc Superboy or Mon El with strikes.
But durability in the pc era was treated differently, too. Superman could pummel Captain Marvel over an entire comic, for example, and won't draw a drop of blood or any mention of pain from Cap worse then "Starting to get a little tired. Must be because the Rock of Eternity is farther away."
Originally posted by ODG
Most of KMC doesn't doubt Val's potential for fighting out of his weight class. But how many Hulk-level bricks has he actually defeated in pure H2H?
He beat the shit out of someone Supergirl was having trouble with. That is all that really needs to be said. Oh, did I mention he was sick and dying at the time?
It comes down to two facts: he can absolutely hurt Herc, and is absolutely much faster.
Originally posted by Surtur
He beat the shit out of someone Supergirl was having trouble with. That is all that really needs to be said. Oh, did I mention he was sick and dying at the time?It comes down to two facts: he can absolutely hurt Herc, and is absolutely much faster.
Yep.
On feats, Val blows Mantis away in sheer striking feats. The guys penetrated a super metal even Superboy struggled to damage.
Originally posted by cdtmSo he's like Karnak or Mandarin w/o rings or current Shang Chi. All of whom have super high-end feats but you turn around and see them sparring with the likes of Batman, Black Panther and Cap.
Yep.On feats, Val blows Mantis away in sheer striking feats. The guys penetrated a super metal even Superboy struggled to damage.
Taking only his high-end feats against a D-list character while ignoring everything else isn't exactly inspiring confidence here.
Originally posted by Henry_PymHaha when has Herc ever been capable of FTL speed? The reason that KK could "bfr Mon-el into deep space with a judo throw" was because his atack was a FTL blitz attack. If he wasnt moving that fast the throw wouldnt have sent him that far.
Because bfr is off thus judo throws to space aren't going to work.
Originally posted by ODG
So he's like Karnak or Mandarin w/o rings or current Shang Chi. All of whom have super high-end feats but you turn around and see them sparring with the likes of Batman, Black Panther and Cap.Taking only his high-end feats against a D-list character while ignoring everything else isn't exactly inspiring confidence here.
No absolutely nothing like that. Val doesnt have many low feats to detract from his high at all. Frankly the only normal human I even recall him fighting was Batman. The fact that Batman did any good at all IMHO was complete and utter PIS to appease the Bat fanbase. Yes I know Val was dying at the time and was with without his memory but even that shouldnt have made it possible.
Originally posted by beatboksIf I read his feats from The Lightning Saga and Countdown forward, doesn't seem offensive. So what beyond those two storylines suggests that the Batman fight was utter nonsense? And it's already happened in this thread, but I'd rather not mix different timeline Karate Kids and pretend like all their feats are interchangeable or shared.
No absolutely nothing like that. Val doesnt have many low feats to detract from his high at all. Frankly the only normal human I even recall him fighting was Batman. The fact that Batman did any good at all IMHO was complete and utter PIS to appease the Bat fanbase. Yes I know Val was dying at the time and was with without his memory but even that shouldnt have made it possible.
Originally posted by ODG
So he's like Karnak or Mandarin w/o rings or current Shang Chi. All of whom have super high-end feats but you turn around and see them sparring with the likes of Batman, Black Panther and Cap.Taking only his high-end feats against a D-list character while ignoring everything else isn't exactly inspiring confidence here.
I'll save an argument on whether any street should be fighting a guy who beats the crap out of Iron Man for another day.. 🙂
I did list a bunch of feats besides his showing against "d lister" Equuis. But, an important difference here is Val was established in his first story as being able to fight Superboy on an even level using nothing by "karate".
His "Karnak" like feats of breaking through Inertron (the super metal I mentioned that PC Superboy couldn't break through), diamonds, force fields, and thh Emerald Eye are supporting evidence of his striking power.
And being able to hit PC Superboy as Superboy comments on how fast he is, or dodge Ultra Boy when it's specifically stated he's using super speed, or dodging and countering the Flash level Tornado Twins supports him operating at a high level of speed. As does dodging Wally West in the form of speed force lightning while holding a lightning rod designed to attract him.
Further, there's various random feats like the snow punch already mentioned, or stomping to create a counter shockwave to Major Disasters shockwave, or the feat of Val trapping PC Superboy in a choke hold indefinately, until he decided to spin him around like a top so fast he passed out. Or, the other time he held PC Superboy in a "muscle lock" hold..
Of course, Val certainly has lesser showings, as does everyone. As does Herc... didn't he get dropped by Iron Fist once? 😛
Originally posted by ODG
If I read his feats from The Lightning Saga and Countdown forward, doesn't seem offensive. So what beyond those two storylines suggests that the Batman fight was utter nonsense? And it's already happened in this thread, but I'd rather not mix different timeline Karate Kids and pretend like all their feats are interchangeable or shared.
That's because the Lightning Legion is basically the Levitz Legion. They even referenced Val's first death, without explaining how he was resurrected.
Originally posted by ODG
If I read his feats from The Lightning Saga and Countdown forward, doesn't seem offensive. So what beyond those two storylines suggests that the Batman fight was utter nonsense? And it's already happened in this thread, but I'd rather not mix different timeline Karate Kids and pretend like all their feats are interchangeable or shared.
The chaacter rarely if ever faces normal humans in H2H. The only Normal humans he has ever faced d I nt fight that way (Adam Orian and Celebrand both use weapons) they are literally the only normal level enemies I can think of. Everyone else hes ever fought could just as easily take a fight to the more powerful Legionares. Even the generic Black Mace could make a fight with any legionare except Superboy, Mon-el, Supergirl and Ultra-boy. He was like a 60 odd tonner. Grimbor the Chainsman also had super strength. Look at who they came up with to kill him, Nemisi kid literally had the power to develop what ever power he needed to defeat someone. That's the character who actually beat KK in a fight.