Originally posted by finti
Jango said "I was recruited by a man called Darth Tyranus
on one of the moons of Bogden." This is all info we have on the picking of Jango as the host.
and why didn't Fett lie?
well, if he's a great bountyhunter, why the heck did he use a KAMINO sabredart? why not craft one himself which would have been impossible to track down.
why? because OB1 HAD to find Kamino, otherwise the Clone Wars wouldn't take place and Sidious couldn't be Emperor, in the first place,
so why would he say "oh, yes, I know Sifo, elderly chap, yay heigh"
saying there is a contradiction between who ordered the clones and who picked him makes the situation more curious and it shows there is something horribly wrong and that the sith are behind all this
yeah, this whole thing is revenge against the jedi for demolishing the sith (and i'm not referencing any comics here, its been implied that the Jedi wiped them out). So Palpatine knows that at this stage the Jedi are royally F$%^ed. This is the end of his scheme. All is going along his plan, all the pieces are in place for the final move which is to grab Anakin before the Purge starts. So he has no problem handing them pieces. Remember how Palpatine handed the Rebels the location of the second Death Star? He loves to let people walk into their own deaths. He's letting the Jedi be confused. It'll make them all the more shocked when he finally reveals himself. he's twisting the knife so to speak, waving clues just out of grasp. Its all a big game for him basically.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The Qui-Gon idea is nonsense, always has been. Why would Obi-Wan have called him Sifo-Dyas? Yes, you can make up an extended rationale to explain that but that is just silly. The 'ten years ago' reference is simply because Palpatine started his new plan after the events of TPM. To say QGJ and Sifo-Dyas are the same person due to the proximity of their deaths is INTENSLY tenuous.As I seem to keep saying lately, the most likely answer is still either Dooku or Palpatine, using te name of a recently deceased Jedi Master to cover it.
Incidentally, regardless of who Sifo-Dyas is, as Dooku provided the template for the army (another reason QGJ could not have done it because Dooku would not have been involved in this plan until after Maul, and so QGJ, died and without the template there WAS no order for Sifo-Dyas to place) then the point that he helped create an army that was used 'against' him is a thing to automatically think, not a dumb idea. Dooku planned it that way from the start.
However, Anakin deleteing the Kamino records is also incredibly unlikely. They were most likely deleted when the clone order was made; Anakin was too young to be dong things like that. Even if it was done around the time of the film it is still too early for Anakin to be doing dodgy things like that. As yerssot says, the culprit is far more likely to be Dooku. We know he is involed with the army's creation, so why not him?
True enough, but there were a couple lines in Episode 2 that could have given the impression that Sifo Dias was Qui Gon. On Kamino, Obi-Wan says "Master Sifo Dias was killed almost ten years ago." Qui Gon was killed 10 years ago. Then Obi-Wan says "Tell me Prime Minister, when my master first contacted you, did he say who this army was for?" Obi-Wan's master was Qui-Gon so is makes perfect sense that many including myself took it that Sifo could have been Qui-Gon.
Originally posted by Sith Master X
True enough, but there were a couple lines in Episode 2 that could have given the impression that Sifo Dias was Qui Gon. On Kamino, Obi-Wan says "Master Sifo Dias was killed almost ten years ago." Qui Gon was killed 10 years ago. Then Obi-Wan says "Tell me Prime Minister, when my master first contacted you, did he say who this army was for?" Obi-Wan's master was Qui-Gon so is makes perfect sense that many including myself took it that Sifo could have been Qui-Gon.
Like I said in the post yuou quoted, to tie them into being the same person due to the proximity of their deaths is intensly tenuous.
And the Kaminoans had simply mistaken Obi-Wan for Sifo-Dyas' apprentice.
Sith are dumber than they look
Here's my question? Why is it everybody assumes the Sith are so omniscient (the dart being traced to Kamino, Amidala, etc.), while the Jedi seemingly know nothing? What if neither side is so omniscient.
I think Dooku, assuming the name of dead Jedi Sifo Dyas, ordered the Clone army after hand picking Jango Fett, telling the Kaminoans it was for the Republic. He did it because Sidious told him to and it made sense that the Sith would need their own army to defeat the Republic. He also erased Kamino from the Jedi archives. But, he didn't think Jango would be dumb enough to get traced through his dart, thus leading to the Clone army being called up sooner than expected.
This makes sense and is simpler. After all, the Sith are known for concocting big "secret plans" like the death star too (another plan that didn't pan out as expected).
And if the Sith knew Anakin would be their future Vader, why would they keep trying to kill Amidala before she and Anakin got married? They keep trying to kill her early to help destabilize the Republic, which is their immediate goal, not to deviously "almost" kill her in order to get her and Anakin closer and fall in love.
first off, the sith never needed the army for themselves, cause if they did, than EVERYONE would support the jedi, now with how it went (the republic made the first strike on a planet that wasn't in their republic), they were the evil force and more pricely.. the jedi started it off, so people went to hate them and thus it was easier for the sith. Jedi purge and all; otherwise you have the clones fighting the Jedi (who are in combat better) AND a hastly put together army of volunteers.
than, the marriage was a secret, the jedi didn't knew it nor did the sith. the jedi would have objected to the marriage AND the sith I take.
He defied orders, that's all, nothing planned on the sith-part for that
Originally posted by finti
well Yers actually the 20 who left the order aint in the films so ...................
you can discuss about that, well, not you, but others cause by now everyone knows your pov ...
should check the deleted scenes on the dvd again
I'm not saying I like it, but it kind of makes sense that Anakin might have deleted Kamino. When Obi-Wan needs to find Kamino, Yoda has a kid give him the answer. "The mind of a child" and all that. It would be just like Sappy ol' Lucas to also have a child be the one who hides Kamino. Like Palpatine hypnotizes Anakin or something, places a mental suggestion in his head to sneak into the archives and delete the records. Anakin is a techno whiz kid, so he could definitely do it.
I'm not saying I agree with it or want it to be true, I'm just saying its something Lucas might do. He's getting old, you know.
I still think Qui-Gon ordered the clones
Heres an excerpt from the Ep 2 novelization. This is the scene between Dooku and Obi-Wan on Geonosis:
___
Dooku: Qui-Gon always spoke very highly of you. I wish he was alive---I could use his help right now.
Obi-Wan: Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you.
Dooku: Don't be so sure my young Jedi. You forget that Qui-Gon was once my apprentice just as you were once his.
Obi-Wan: You believe that brings loyalty above his loyalty to the Jedi Council and the Republic?
Dooku: He knew all about the corruption in the Senate. They all do, of course. Yoda and Mace Windu. But Qui-Gon would never have gone along with the status quo, with that corruption, if he had known the truth as I have.
Obi-Wan: The truth?
Dooku: The truth. What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith?
___
Its obvious that Dooku is messing with Obi-Wans head, trying to confuse him and make him doubt. Dooku knows the truth about the Republic will sound ridiculous to Obi-Wan, so theres no harm in telling him, it will only confuse him further. By adding later in the scene that Nute Gunray was tricked and betrayed by the Sith, Dooku makes the Trade Federation look like victims instead of aggressors. He twists his words around to completely befuddle Obi-Wan, mixing truth and lies until Obi-Wan is looking anywhere but the right direction.
I think Dooku is doing the same thing in the excerpt above. He's basically telling Obi-Wan that he had Qui-Gon's help in the past, and that if Qui-Gon was still alive Dooku has every reason to expect that he would have joined the Separatist movement. Again, he's telling Obi-Wan the truth...with a little twist...knowing that the truth will sound so ridiculous that Obi-Wan won't be able to accept it. At the same time, Obi-Wan would wonder why Dooku said any of this in the first place, causing further doubt and confusion.
I don't think Qui-Gon would have joined the Separatists in the end, but its very possible that Dooku used his skills to trick him, feeding on his mistrust of the Senate, and successfully convincing Qui-Gon that it was in the Jedi's best interests to order a secret clone army.