Cases can be made for either side. Kun's lack of saber feats is somewhat alarming, but there wasn't exactly an abundance of top tier duelists in his era. Exar's blasts may provide him with an advantage regarding combative force power but he himself has made note of how hard his gauntlets are to control.
IMO Palpatine may have trouble initially with Kun's radical and unpredicatble style, but he is still notably faster than his opponent and has answers to most of Kun's force powers.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not saying that every fight is indicative of a 50% margin either way, lol. For that matter, 50% was a percentage I simply made up on the spot for the sake of simplicity. Substitute any figure you want. I'm asking Ziggy why he's contradicting himself by claiming that Sidious winning the day with the Force is circumstantial and worth questioning, but not Yoda's victory in the dueling portion of the fight?
Maybe because other sources claim Palpatine and Yoda are equals as Force users, meanwhile most sources depict, or imply, Yoda's superiority as a swordsman?
What I'm getting at is that, while Ziggy questioning Palpatine's method of winning is flawed, you simply saying "it was a 5 out of ten scenario for Yoda" is also flawed.
Come to think of it, why are you even giving Ziggy the time of day?
Originally posted by SunRazer
It's the result they find most likely in the circumstances given, yeah. And I'd say the cramped space would've been quite poor for Palpatine. Yoda, being of much smaller stature, still had ample room to jump around and everything. Not so with the Emperor, but I'll let it slide.
I fail to see how. It was cramped if Palpatine was swinging at his legs the entire time, but he wasn't since Yoda was either above him or face-to-face with him.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure which "best fighter in the prequels" quote you're running after, but recent quotes claim that Sidious can beat any Jedi duelist. It'd help if Yoda had better feats as a swordsman than Sidious, but he doesn't.
From Insider #62: "The wise and gentle old man we have known for two decades is suddenly the best warrior in all the films.
And that quote is from StarWars.com, which is rather inconsistent on some things, and also has quotes saying Yoda can "kick anyone's butt". The fact that we have at least two sources that show Yoda disarming Sidious places him as the superior duelist.
And regarding feats... I don't really think Sidious has better feats, honestly. Yoda schooling Saesee Tiin, Depa Billaba and Plo Koon, while unarmed and barely moving is just as good, if not better, than Palpatine schooling Maul and Savage.
Originally posted by SunRazer
The novelization doesn't have Yoda disarming Sidious - the junior novel does, and that's the same source that has Palpatine and Yoda as equals in the Force. So I'd be careful with which sources I elect to support my point.
I meant the Junior novel, sorry.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Sidious choosing to relocate so he can abuse his Force advantage and Yoda gaining the advantage in a physical duel aren't necessarily indicative of one another.
But the fact that Sidious is originally laughing at Yoda, then later screaming before a cut-away, only to come back so we see him spamming Force powers, seems to imply he was simply outmatched by Yoda.
Now, I would be willing to let this point slide if we didn't have confirmation that Yoda was suppose to disarm Sheev, but the truth is that we do.
Originally posted by SunRazer
As of current sources, yeah. Though in the past they've been sources putting Yoda and Sidious as equals. Fortunately, Canon is much more decisive on the issue - the SW website alone provides almost half a dozen quotes on Palpatine's favor.
In Palpatine's favour as of the overall fight, yes. His mastery and power in the Force is what gives him the win, but as a swordsman Yoda should be slightly ahead.
Originally posted by MythLord
Maybe because other sources claim Palpatine and Yoda are equals as Force users, meanwhile most sources depict, or imply, Yoda's superiority as a swordsman?
It's actually a minority of sources, and the omitted sources include the two most prominent ones - the film and the novel.
What I'm getting at is that, while Ziggy questioning Palpatine's method of winning is flawed, you simply saying "it was a 5 out of ten scenario for Yoda" is also flawed.
"5 out of 10" was a random figure I made up on the spot - I've already told you to ignore it if you don't get that. I'm simply saying that it doesn't make sense to declare Sidious' Force-based victory a one-off but then tout Yoda's disarming of the Emperor as a definitive sign of permanent, irrevocable superiority. That's not flawed at all.
Come to think of it, why are you even giving Ziggy the time of day?
Why? That escapes me as well. I have a history of reneging on my pledge to ignore him.
I fail to see how. It was cramped if Palpatine was swinging at his legs the entire time, but he wasn't since Yoda was either above him or face-to-face with him.
Palpatine still doesn't have much space to maneuver. As we see in his duel with Mace, Maul & Savage, etc. (IIRC also in Lords of the Sith) - Palpatine likes to make ample use of his surrounding space. He flips up, down, around, etc.
From Insider #62: "The wise and gentle old man we have known for two decades is suddenly the best warrior in all the films.
This is a source from before Sidious was ever depicted holding a lightsaber, lol. He wasn't considered a warrior then - so he'd be exempt from Yoda's accolade.
Besides, Nick Gillard also implies that nobody can beat Sidious in a duel.
And that quote is from StarWars.com, which is rather inconsistent on some things, and also has quotes saying Yoda can "kick anyone's butt". The fact that we have at least two sources that show Yoda disarming Sidious places him as the superior duelist.
That's a quote from the website itself, though, not an interview from Filoni. Filoni has previously claimed that Sidious could kick anyone's butt as well, so we're at an impasse once again. Thankfully, there's the quote that states that Sidious can best any Jedi duelist. 👆
And regarding feats... I don't really think Sidious has better feats, honestly. Yoda schooling Saesee Tiin, Depa Billaba and Plo Koon, while unarmed and barely moving is just as good, if not better, than Palpatine schooling Maul and Savage.
I disagree. A toying Sidious being roughly even with a Maul who was enjoying the bloodlust of his life (likely even greater than "Zonakin"😉 is seriously impressive. We're forgetting that Sidious did better against Maul & Savage than Yoda did against Dooku - though I'm that the latter is somewhat self-contradictory between the various sources.
But the fact that Sidious is originally laughing at Yoda, then later screaming before a cut-away, only to come back so we see him spamming Force powers, seems to imply he was simply outmatched by Yoda.
Yelling doesn't mean that you're losing, lol. For Sidious later appearing at a distance, refer to my previous argument. That doesn't prove that Sheev was losing - merely that he had enough tact to seek a way of abusing his an area that he actually had the advantage in, rather than pressing something that he was equal to Yoda in.
Now, I would be willing to let this point slide if we didn't have confirmation that Yoda was suppose to disarm Sheev, but the truth is that we do.
Well, I'm not going to deny that these sources exist. Regardless, I think the two most important media to consider here are the film and the novel, both of which Lucas had personal involvement in. Notice that Sheev is never directly shown to be disarmed in either source, even though the script has that happening and one would think that it would be a fitting scene to include. Why? I'd think that it's because Lucas didn't want to us to get the impression that Yoda was at the advantage.
In Palpatine's favour as of the overall fight, yes. His mastery and power in the Force is what gives him the win, but as a swordsman Yoda should be slightly ahead.
Perhaps.
Originally posted by SunRazer
It's actually a minority of sources, and the omitted sources include the two most prominent ones - the film and the novel.
The Junior novelisations are, from what I recall, in the same tier as the other novelisations and the filsm, so it's hardly omitted. And the film does have them as equals, actually, seeing as how Yoda's loss was due to weight and position, and he was overpower Palpatine(Palpatine screams in pain, Yoda closes in via Tutaminis, explosion happens, Yoda falls further due to being on the edge and weighing less).
The funny thing I noticed in the movie is: Sidious usually gets the initial advantage, then Yoda proceeds to push him back.
Originally posted by SunRazer
"5 out of 10" was a random figure I made up on the spot - I've already told you to ignore it if you don't get that. I'm simply saying that it doesn't make sense to declare Sidious' Force-based victory a one-off but then tout Yoda's disarming of the Emperor as a definitive sign of permanent, irrevocable superiority. That's not flawed at all.
So I see... mmm
Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine still doesn't have much space to maneuver. As we see in his duel with Mace, Maul & Savage, etc. (IIRC also in Lords of the Sith) - Palpatine likes to make ample use of his surrounding space. He flips up, down, around, etc.
Against Mace, he only really used his acrobatics once or twice, and against Maul/Savage he seemed to switch between being ground and speed-striking, and using acrobatics.
However, the fact that Yoda could box him in, and keep up the pressure to the point that Palpatine cannot leap away or start abusing his acrobatics(seeing as how he's definitely capable of just leaping upwards of backwards)
Originally posted by SunRazer
This is a source from before Sidious was ever depicted holding a lightsaber, lol. He wasn't considered a warrior then - so he'd be exempt from Yoda's accolade.
Besides, Nick Gillard also implies that nobody can beat Sidious in a duel.[/B][/QUOTE]
Dark Empire still existed at the time, as did the Ep I Journal of Maul. Palpatine was still considered a warrior and a swordsman at the time... but fair enough.
Originally posted by SunRazer
That's a quote from the website itself, though, not an interview from Filoni. Filoni has previously claimed that Sidious could kick anyone's butt as well, so we're at an impasse once again. Thankfully, there's the quote that states that Sidious can best any Jedi duelist. 👆
The website itself cannot seem to decide if Dooku hurled rocks at Kenobi and Anakin, or collapsed a pillar; if Grievous overwhelmed Fisto or if its the other way around; if the fall or the lightning killed Mace; if Dooku is considerably better than Asajj/Savage, or only slightly etc. It's editted by multiple executives who have about as much authority as Dave and have differing views that can be seen throughout the website. Not to mention, it lacks information at some time, leaving out key facts presented in canon.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I disagree. A toying Sidious being roughly even with a Maul who was enjoying the bloodlust of his life (likely even greater than "Zonakin"😉 is seriously impressive. We're forgetting that Sidious did better against Maul & Savage than Yoda did against Dooku - though I'm that the latter is somewhat self-contradictory between the various sources.
I'm sorry but what? How is an angered Maul even approaching Zonakin? Not only is the latter more enraged -- because he's remembering his severed hand, his mother, his wife, someone who was "more intimate with him than a lover" and realizing if he fails now, they'll all die(or are dead) -- and getting motivated by Sidious, but he has far more potential than Maul to draw from when "in the zone", to the point where he makes Dooku look like a joke.
And that's a good feat for Dooku, if anything. Yoda's tooled Plo, Saesee and Depa just as much, if not more, than Sidious was Savage and Maul. Yoda was unarmed, moving barely a meter in step, and didn't get a single hit on him; Sidious tagged twice(granted, he probably let it happen, or just didn't care), and was abusing his lightsabers and dancing all over the place, and still at one point was strained.
Plo has already proven to be damn close to beings of Savage's calibre and impressed Maul, and the combined skill of Depa and Saesee (two of the greatest swordsmen in history, both of whom have performed well against Windu in spars) should definitely be comparable to Maul's own skill.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yelling doesn't mean that you're losing, lol. For Sidious later appearing at a distance, refer to my previous argument. That doesn't prove that Sheev was losing - merely that he had enough tact to seek a way of abusing his an area that he actually had the advantage in, rather than pressing something that he was equal to Yoda in.
Screaming "Yaaargaaah" in pain, while failing to break a bladelock with Yoda definitely suggests he was losing. Also worth noting how in this instance, Yoda has no strain on his face, meanwhile Palpatine's screaming like he just lost his virginity.
I'd compare that to Sidious stalemating Windu or Maul/Savage in a bladelock where he only partially grimaces and proceeds to either drive them back or give them some pretty significant strain. With Yoda, that really doesn't seem to be the case at all.
In any case, it shows Yoda's strength is greater than Palpatine's 👆
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, I'm not going to deny that these sources exist. Regardless, I think the two most important media to consider here are the film and the novel, both of which Lucas had personal involvement in. Notice that Sheev is never directly shown to be disarmed in either source, even though the script has that happening and one would think that it would be a fitting scene to include. Why? I'd think that it's because Lucas didn't want to us to get the impression that Yoda was at the advantage.
Yeah, in the movie they seem to go back-and-forth, and in the novel Stover's just fancifully saying Palpatine is ultimately the more powerful Force user... but that doesn't mean Yoda isn't the greater swordsman. Between such statements existing, to at least two sources showing that Yoda did disarm him, and then several others implying such suggests that if anyone's the better duelist, it's Yoda.
Of course, I personally consider them equals across the board; but if I had to choose who'd get what advantage, Sheev takes Force and Yoda takes sabers.
Originally posted by MythLord
The Junior novelisations are, from what I recall, in the same tier as the other novelisations and the filsm, so it's hardly omitted. And the film does have them as equals, actually, seeing as how Yoda's loss was due to weight and position, and he was overpower Palpatine(Palpatine screams in pain, Yoda closes in via Tutaminis, explosion happens, Yoda falls further due to being on the edge and weighing less).
I said the novel and the film were omitted, not the junior novel.
Against Mace, he only really used his acrobatics once or twice, and against Maul/Savage he seemed to switch between being ground and speed-striking, and using acrobatics.
The Maul/Savage fight shows that he's clearly a rather spacious duelist, lol.
However, the fact that Yoda could box him in, and keep up the pressure to the point that Palpatine cannot leap away or start abusing his acrobatics(seeing as how he's definitely capable of just leaping upwards of backwards)
I don't have the power to finish uncompleted sentences, but if I were to hazard a guess as to where you were heading with this - I don't agree with this. Yoda driving Palpatine back into the podium is good,
Dark Empire still existed at the time, as did the Ep I Journal of Maul. Palpatine was still considered a warrior and a swordsman at the time... but fair enough.
Dark Empire Palpatine's not from the films either, lol.
The website itself cannot seem to decide if Dooku hurled rocks at Kenobi and Anakin, or collapsed a pillar; if Grievous overwhelmed Fisto or if its the other way around; if the fall or the lightning killed Mace; if Dooku is considerably better than Asajj/Savage, or only slightly etc. It's editted by multiple executives who have about as much authority as Dave and have differing views that can be seen throughout the website. Not to mention, it lacks information at some time, leaving out key facts presented in canon.
Fair enough.
I'm sorry but what? How is an angered Maul even approaching Zonakin? Not only is the latter more enraged -- because he's remembering his severed hand, his mother, his wife, someone who was "more intimate with him than a lover" and realizing if he fails now, they'll all die(or are dead) -- and getting motivated by Sidious, but he has far more potential than Maul to draw from when "in the zone", to the point where he makes Dooku look like a joke.
I'm not comparing Maul to Anakin, I'm using Anakin's rage boost as a comparison. The rage that Maul entered would've been at least comparable to what Anakin was going through on the Invisible Hand, which allowed him to curb Dooku. If Maul's anywhere near that level, then Sidious matching him whilst toying with him is pretty damn impressive.
And that's a good feat for Dooku, if anything. Yoda's tooled Plo, Saesee and Depa just as much, if not more, than Sidious was Savage and Maul. Yoda was unarmed, moving barely a meter in step, and didn't get a single hit on him; Sidious tagged twice(granted, he probably let it happen, or just didn't care), and was abusing his lightsabers and dancing all over the place, and still at one point was strained.
Lots of circumstances here. Sidious was never in trouble, and he was strained against an enraged Maul. And sure, it's a good feat for Dooku, and he's better than Maul or Savage, but not both at once. Sidious still did better against the duo than he did against Dooku.
Screaming "Yaaargaaah" in pain, while failing to break a bladelock with Yoda definitely suggests he was losing. Also worth noting how in this instance, Yoda has no strain on his face, meanwhile Palpatine's screaming like he just lost his virginity.
I'd compare that to Sidious stalemating Windu or Maul/Savage in a bladelock where he only partially grimaces and proceeds to either drive them back or give them some pretty significant strain. With Yoda, that really doesn't seem to be the case at all.
Dark siders do have a habit of getting angry in duels. And it wasn't in pain, it was in frustration. I wouldn't resort to pain faces for the movies, though, or else Yoda was strained in supporting the column that Dooku dropped on Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC. That said, Yoda was clearly strained in the bladelock.
Yeah, in the movie they seem to go back-and-forth, and in the novel Stover's just fancifully saying Palpatine is ultimately the more powerful Force user... but that doesn't mean Yoda isn't the greater swordsman. Between such statements existing, to at least two sources showing that Yoda did disarm him, and then several others implying such suggests that if anyone's the better duelist, it's Yoda.Of course, I personally consider them equals across the board; but if I had to choose who'd get what advantage, Sheev takes Force and Yoda takes sabers.
Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Palaptine may have 'won' the day, but Yoda was the better combatant - more skilled, possibly more powerful in the Force.
^
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Crumbs, too bad innumerable sources reach the verdict that Sidious overpowered him. And that Yoda isn't Exar Kun.As for your suggestion that Sheev can't manipulate senate pods without aid, lmao. 🙂
Why would I accept anything but G canon on who is more powerful concerning two movie characters? The film - the source upon which all is based - clearly depicts Yoda as being superior and his failure dependent entirely on the environment. C-canon descriptions without context or which contradict what's evident aren't compelling evidence.
Also, the pods make whirling sounds when used by Sids; they don't when thrown by Yoda. Go ahead and listen to it before dismissing it as untrue.
1. Get with the times you fossil. The canon hierarchy doesn't exist anymore, there is only Canon and all of it is on equal footing.
2. Your interpretation of the source material is not "G-canon" lmao. Whereas the correct interpretation has been clearly expressed by official sources. I've managed to reconcile this with what's seen on screen, I'm sure you can too.
3. No one gives a damn what bloody sounds the pods where making when Sidious is more powerful than someone who can lift AT-ATs.