Originally posted by SunRazer
What puts him over Muur?
Asajj pulling off a Sith spell that Sorzus Syn considered "complex", and then stating Dooku had only taught her "lesser arts," with Dooku agreeing with this. Sorzus being a peer of Muur (or superior, if we go by the amulet scaling), this should solidly put Dooku above the first ancient Sith. At least the implication is there.
Originally posted by Azronger
Asajj pulling off a Sith spell that Sorzus Syn considered "complex", and then stating Dooku had only taught her "lesser arts," with Dooku agreeing with this. Sorzus being a peer of Muur (or superior, if we go by the amulet scaling), this should solidly put Dooku above the first ancient Sith. At least the implication is there.
That's knowledge. Which, granted, tends to correlate with power, but not always. Secondly, a spell may be "complex" but nowhere near the upper limit of a character's knowledge. After all, Syn was writing the text for the learning of Sith apprentices, who would naturally have more difficulty in learning such techniques.
That aside, Muur also possessed knowledge that his contemporaries didn't (Dark Transfer/Dark Side Healing).
Also, I'm just curious, but is it ever said that Ventress' spell was Sith-derived, as opposed to being learnt from the Nightsisters?
Sidious does take this but the semantics for parts are off *shrugs*
This is supported by the fact that Kun was incapable of penetrating the defenses of Ood Bnar, a less powerful Jedi than Odan-Urr:
You're ignoring context
Be it convenience or genuine ignorance I can't tell *shrugs*
Ood Bnar was drawing directly on the Force power of Ossus' core
http://i.imgur.com/uJfLzMQ.jpg
Shit, its an ability implicitly innate to his species to be able to root themselves into a planet and draw on its Force power (demonstrated in Legacy of the Force: War by T'ra Saa)
http://i.imgur.com/gUu8yiB.jpg
It wasn't Ood Bnar's natural baseline strength at work
Let’s look at another character’s performance against Ood Bnar, shall we? Here is a link to a blog posted by fellow user Beniboybling explaining the circumstances of the fight between Executor Sedriss and Ood:
I still don't fathom how someone as intelligent as Beni draws these conclusions when his premise lacks a major point of comparison between showings
Sedriss was directly calling on the Force present in Ossus' charged atmosphere in the same fashion Ood Bnar was drawing on the power of the planet
http://i.imgur.com/tM6tWPf.jpg
Both powers being thrown at each other were external to themselves
Kun?
The power of his that couldn't cross Bnar's barrier was purely his own, nothing suggesting he himself was also calling on the Force power present in the air
Hell, given the nature of Ossus' destruction (a Force generated collection of Supernova hit the surface with a fraction of its energy), its questionable if the atmosphere was even charged with Force power to any degree during Kun's time
It's like trying to balance a math equation and having an entire variable be unknown and unsolvable for
Even though it does not prove Sedriss is Kun’s superior in itself since he was amplified by the darkness in the atmosphere, it does suggest some sort of parity between the two darksiders.
You seem to like drawing conclusions where premise to form them rely on assumptions filling in the gaps for missing data :hmm
To establish parity, you'd need to first establish how powerful Sedriss is at baseline, not gorging off the power present in the atmosphere in the same fashion Bnar was doing for the Planet's core
Best we know is baseline Sedriss is roughly a peer to Bnar by how they both caused eachother's mutual destruction
Well, no, you'd need to assume the power in the atmosphere/core were comparable to the other. Neither is established as having supremacy over the other. We can assume, but the information isn't there to draw a conclusion
You have Bnar's assessment of his own power compared to Sedriss' shortly before they killed eachother, but that could be contested as boasting *shrugs*
Originally posted by SunRazer
That's knowledge. Which, granted, tends to correlate with power, but not always.
I think it does here. "Lesser arts" clearly doesn't refer to any amount of knowledge, but its quality.
Secondly, a spell may be "complex" but nowhere near the upper limit of a character's knowledge.
No, but unless Sorzus has something better to her name, this is a moot point. And if something is considered complex by someone, then it is not easy for that person to pull off.
After all, Syn was writing the text for the learning of Sith apprentices, who would naturally have more difficulty in learning such techniques.
Where is it stated Sorzus' writings were meant for Sith apprentices?
That aside, Muur also possessed knowledge that his contemporaries didn't (Dark Transfer/Dark Side Healing).
That he did. Yet it would seem he was behind Sorzus in the study of the Force, as evidenced by her being the first one to create a Leviathan and creating the amulets for Muur and Dreypa, and an even more powerful amulet for herself. It may not be much, but what we have seems to point to the direction that Sorzus was the second strongest Sith Lord of the time, after Ajunta Pall.
Also, I'm just curious, but is it ever said that Ventress' spell was Sith-derived, as opposed to being learnt from the Nightsisters?
I don't think Ventress knew of her heritage at that point. And when she arrived on Dathomir in TCW, they treated her as a foe first. She couldn't have possibly learned this from the Nightsisters.
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I'd also like to offer another piece of evidence that supports the notion of Dooku >> the ancients: Palpatine's Dark Side Adepts were each allowed to study the writings if Sorzus Syn freely, and were stayed by Palpatine to be "perfecting" them. So a single Dark Side Adept is a superior Force wielder than Sorzus Syn. Yet, Executor Sedriss, the strongest among them, was not considered by Darth Sidious to be a "moderate Force sensitive" and viewed him as lesser than his apprentices, Dooku included.
Originally posted by Azronger
Chaos Theory, you make fair points, but Ood Bnar was not the only Jedi less powerful than Odan-Urr that Kun failed to overpower with his Force abilities. This does not debunk my overall conclusion.
Your comparison to Sedriss is entirely reliant on Ood Bnar
And off the top of my head?
The only Jedi of worth Kun was confronted with at his height were Ood Bnar, Vodo-Siosk Baas (the Mace Windu of his day to Odan-Urr's Yoda), Odan-Urr (where Urr cursed age and acknowledges he doesn't have the power to stop Kun), and Sylvar (who Kun dismissed with TK of unknown power or effort)
Who am I missing?
Not that they're relevant as they possess no actual link to Ood Bnar, let alone Sedriss
The conclusion "Sidious defeats Kun" holds (something I acknowledged as a preface), but the conclusion "Sedriss holds parity with Kun" does not
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Your comparison to Sedriss is entirely reliant on Ood BnarAnd off the top of my head?
The only Jedi of worth Kun was confronted with at his height were Ood Bnar, Vodo-Siosk Baas (the Mace Windu of his day to Odan-Urr's Yoda), Odan-Urr (where Urr cursed age and acknowledges he doesn't have the power to stop Kun), and Sylvar (who Kun dismissed with TK of unknown power or effort)
Who am I missing?
Not that they're relevant as they possess no actual link to Ood Bnar, let alone Sedriss
The conclusion "Sidious defeats Kun" holds (something I acknowledged as a preface), but the conclusion "Sedriss holds parity with Kun" does not
Sedriss isn't relevant to this. Vodo resisting all of Kun's Force powers is, though, since Yoda and Sidious get scaling from him.
Originally posted by Azronger
I think it does here. "Lesser arts" clearly doesn't refer to any amount of knowledge, but its quality.
I find it intriguing that resurrecting the dead with Dathka Graush's spell is considered a lesser art when Korriban: Planet of Lost Souls stated that not even Palpatine knew how to do it. Not saying that it's impossible to retcon, but to have it go from Palpatine explicitly not knowing the technique to Ventress being able to use it is interesting.
No, but unless Sorzus has something better to her name, this is a moot point. And if something is considered complex by someone, then it is not easy for that person to pull off.
No, it doesn't. "Complex" is defined as something that has many interconnected aspects. No matter how powerful you are, the spell is still complex because it's derived from all sorts of Sorcery/Alchemy, but if you're good enough, you can use it easily. That doesn't change the fact that it's still comprised of numerous aspects - hence being "complex".
Where is it stated Sorzus' writings were meant for Sith apprentices?
I remembered it wrong. I can't find anything about it in the text.
That he did. Yet it would seem he was behind Sorzus in the study of the Force, as evidenced by her being the first one to create a Leviathan and creating the amulets for Muur and Dreypa, and an even more powerful amulet for herself. It may not be much, but what we have seems to point to the direction that Sorzus was the second strongest Sith Lord of the time, after Ajunta Pall.
Legacy claims that Muur may have had a hand in creating the Leviathans. It was quite possibly a joint process, one in which Sorzus would've been unwilling to give much credit to Muur because, well, she's a Sith.
As for the amulets, you're forgetting that she wrote them in future tense. That's what she wanted to happen - it's not shown that it actually did happen. Not that greater knowledge of Alchemy means greater knowledge/power overall, since we know the original Sith Lords each possessed secrets of their own that they denied the others access to.
I'd also like to offer another piece of evidence that supports the notion of Dooku >> the ancients: Palpatine's Dark Side Adepts were each allowed to study the writings if Sorzus Syn freely, and were stayed by Palpatine to be "perfecting" them. So a single Dark Side Adept is a superior Force wielder than Sorzus Syn. Yet, Executor Sedriss, the strongest among them, was not considered by Darth Sidious to be a "moderate Force sensitive" and viewed him as lesser than his apprentices, Dooku included.
That's rather inane reasoning, really. Wyyrlok studied more of the dark side than Krayt, yet he was outclassed with respects to telekinesis and Force Lightning (by Vong Krayt, no less), the principle powers that Sith use in combat. With Vong Krayt being outclassed by Muur, it's evident that Wyyrlok isn't anywhere near Muur despite studying obscene amounts of Sith lore (almost certainly beyond what Muur learned), including texts from the Ancient Sith and at least some of Muur's own teachings.
With respect to the Dark Side Adepts, their knowledge may be considerable, but raw power plays a part in manipulating the Force as well, as my example above proves. And obviously, the reason Sidious didn't consider them as worthy of apprenticeship is because their raw power was lacking. They just weren't going to ever be strong enough to live the life of a Sith apprentice under the most powerful Sith Lord.
We can easily draw reverse comparisons such as Vader thinking that Muur could've been powerful enough to be his Master - which instantly puts him above any of the dark side adepts that are canonically inferior to Vader. Not to mention that where Sidious deemed his Adepts unworthy of being even Sith Apprentices, he considered Sorzus Syn one of the greatest Dark Lords of the Sith. There's no comparison.
Originally posted by Azronger
Sedriss isn't relevant to this. Vodo resisting all of Kun's Force powers is, though, since Yoda and Sidious get scaling from him.
Did he?
Was under the impression it was just a duel
Have that quote?
Given I made the Vodo respect thread, it'd be nice to have if it exists
That said, the point of my post was to address your comparison to Sedriss, pivot around whatever else you want or need to as far as asserting Yoda and Sidious are superior to Kun
